Changed my mind on Schumann

[mjames]

I don't know what it was, but last year I went to a performance and Schumann finally "clicked" for me. He always bored me, except for a few selected works, but now it's like the complete opposite. Pieces I found to be completely boring are quickly turning into my favorites. It's weird, because even learning and playing his music didn't help before, but now it's like a switch just turned on.

Schumann piano concerto is exquisite. I can't believe I used to find this boring before. It's just so beautiful. The symphonies are great. Love almost all of his piano cycles. Chamber music is excellent; string quartets, piano quartet, piano quintet, violin sonatas...

Hey Thalbergmad if you're still around, sorry man, I've switched over to the dark side.

(Funnily enough, the more I listen to Schumann the more I fall in love with Brahms, despite already liking him for awhile.)

[brogers70]

Don't forget the Lieder. I never liked him until I started listening to his songs.

[frodo7]

I don't know what it was, but last year I went to a performance and Schumann finally "clicked" for me. He always bored me, except for a few selected works, but now it's like the complete opposite. Pieces I found to be completely boring are quickly turning into my favorites. It's weird, because even learning and playing his music didn't help before, but now it's like a switch just turned on.

Schumann piano concerto is exquisite. I can't believe I used to find this boring before. It's just so beautiful. The symphonies are great. Love almost all of his piano cycles. Chamber music is excellent; string quartets, piano quartet, piano quintet, violin sonatas...

Hey Thalbergmad if you're still around, sorry man, I've switched over to the dark side.

(Funnily enough, the more I listen to Schumann the more I fall in love with Brahms, despite already liking him for awhile.)

It�s great that you were open-minded to liking Schumann!  Congratulations for making the "leap of thought discovery", although it is not a problem if someone hates Schumann�s music. I�ve never had such a great turnaround like you had, but I remember hating Stravinsky "Symphony in 3 movements" before it "clicked" for me.  Now it is one of my absolute favorites.  You need a sense of humor to enjoy this work, I believe.  My favorite recording is conducted by Boulez, who in the liner notes says he doesn�t like the symphony and other neoclassical works!  Go figure.

It is without question that history has judged Schumann to be a great composer.  My first hearing Schumann was when Murray Perahia performed Schumann�s op 6 and op 12 sets on PBS in the early 1970�s when I was a kid.  It wasn�t until maybe 10 years ago when I heard everyone complaining about his piano concerto on Pianostreet that I listened to it and loved it from the start.  The symphonies and other works that you mention are indeed great.  The 4th mvt of his 3rd symphony is unbelievable and the 5th mvt is great and such a contrast to the 4th. 

Welcome to the dark side! 

[frodo7]

Don't forget the Lieder. I never liked him until I started listening to his songs.

Absolutely!

Here is a duet that I posted before.  Er und Sie - tugs on my heart strings.

Here is a touching ballade from op 145.

[dizzyfingers]

The important thing with Schumann, for me, is to focus on his music.  The more I become familiar with his "me first", "men first" attitudes, w.r.t to Clara and his family, the more I dislike him**.  He had a very gifted musical imagination, without doubt, and his compositional skills are good enough.

** I realize this situation doesn't come up with Chopin, Liszt, Brahms.  No doubt Schumann was typical of his times.

[frodo7]

The important thing with Schumann, for me, is to focus on his music and keep a distance from the person.  The more I become familiar with his life and personality the more I dislike him**.  He had a gifted musical imagination, without doubt, and his compositional skills are good enough.

**This isn't true of other composers of that century - Chopin, Liszt, Brahms.

Would I not have the right to reject someone�s music because I did not like him/her as a person?  For example, Wagner is viewed by many to be a racist and an antisemite.  Hitler adored his music and was closely connected to the Wagner family.

Would I also not have the right to reject someone�s music based on my misunderstanding of historical facts or motivations behind certain actions of a composer?

I would argue that I have the right to reject any composer's music for any reason.

[frodo7]

As mentioned, when I was maybe 14 years old, I heard Murray Perahia perform the op. 6 Davidsb�ndlert�nze and the op 12 Fantasiest�cke on PBS.  I must have ordered his album of these works at that time.  About 2 years ago, I ordered Perahia�s 1973 album of these 2 works on CD.  I recognized the cover so I must have bought the vinal version back in 1973.  Having not heard these works for almost half a century, I remembered note for note and every nuance of Perahia�s interpretation as if I heard this just a few days earlier.  These 2 cycles along with his Carnaval op 9 remain my favorite solo piano works of Schumann. 

Mjames � Congratulations again on what I call your "leap of thought discovery�! Having such a complete change in heart of this magnitude I would think is a very rare event experienced by very few.   You can rest assured that you are now on the right side as judged by history.  Best wishes! 

[lelle]

Off topic, but frodo7? Do you keep forgetting your password or something?

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Off topic, but frodo7? Do you keep forgetting your password or something?

Same question lol.

[frodo_explanation]

Off topic, but frodo7? Do you keep forgetting your password or something?

Fair question. Everyone deserves an explanation.  I posted up until the end of last decade under the name georgey.  I then decided not to return because I found that it was disruptive to what I am trying to accomplish.  This was no fault of the website or the people which I like very much.  It was the fault of how my brain reacts to social media.  So, I changed my password to some huge password that I did not look at while I was typing and I changed my email address to a made-up phony address.  Georgey is gone forever.  I came back briefly under the name Jacobson and maybe a couple others, like newperson that posted maybe one post a few months ago.  Then of course you all know the bunch of frodos.  I always reappear here on a whim � later to regret it.  This last one, I listened to a post of fine recording of Chopin ballade no 4 and got all excited without looking at who the pianist is or who the poster is.  I thought it was some unknown pianist posting.

Back in the time when I posted as georgey, there were a lot of new comers claiming, for example, to be able to learn Chopin etude op 10 no 1 in a few months even though they had only been playing piano for 7 months.  These were fun for me at the time, but disruptive.  I don�t see too many of those anymore.  There were also a lot of trolls that were also fun to spar with.  These are mostly gone now.  My last fairly big sparring was with LATG, although this was pretty small compared with others.  Hi LATG.  Hope all is well!  But that was disruptive for me - no fault of anyone except for myself.

Anyway, I was happy to hear from Mjames and thrilled that he likes Schumann, although there is no problem if someone hates Schumann for any reason.  I may come back in a year or 2 if I can figure a way to make posting here work for me.  I will need to come up with some rules for myself and stick to them.  But I�m not sure if I�m capable of that.  I wish everyone the best.

[frodo_explanation]

I'll end with the glorious sounds of Schumann symphony 3 with conductor Sawallisch, Staatskapelle Dresden

[mjames]

@Georgey

Kinda still wish Ahinton, Visitor, and Thalberg were active because the populairty of Schumann's piano concerto used to inspire year long debates on this forum. Now that I'm on the other side I'm feeling an itch to argue for Schumann! 

Another thing to point out, when I was younger I was definitely more in favour of "flashier" composers like Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Scriabin and so on; although I still love them, I have come to appreciate nonvirtuoso piano concerti. I don't think it's a coincidence I fell in love with Brahms piano concerti, Beethoven's 5th, and Schumann's around the same time.

Ahinton was right, the 3rd movement in Schumann's concerto is just simply brilliant.

[dizzyfingers]

@Georgey

Kinda still wish Ahinton, Visitor, and Thalberg were active because the populairty of Schumann's piano concerto used to inspire year long debates on this forum. Now that I'm on the other side I'm feeling an itch to argue for Schumann! 

Another thing to point out, when I was younger I was definitely more in favour of "flashier" composers like Rachmaninoff, Chopin, Scriabin and so on; although I still love them, I have come to appreciate nonvirtuoso piano concerti. I don't think it's a coincidence I fell in love with Brahms piano concerti, Beethoven's 5th, and Schumann's around the same time.

Ahinton was right, the 3rd movement in Schumann's concerto is just simply brilliant.

I recently listened to Schumann's violin concerto, composed shortly after he met Brahms and before he jumped off the bridge (I should get those definite dates).  I was struck by the beauty and richness of the music.  Very moving.  I was also struck by the poverty of compositional effort:  first the orchestra played, then the violin played with some light orchestral accompaniment, then the orchestra played, then the violin played with some light orchestral accompaniment.  That's the 1st movement.  I stopped there.
Some say Schumann knew, consciously or subconsciously, that Brahms would eclipse him, and sure enough, Brahms' efforts in compositional craftsmanship (and success therein) far exceed Schumann.

[lelle]

  I was also struck by the poverty of compositional effort:  first the orchestra played, then the violin played with some light orchestral accompaniment, then the orchestra played, then the violin played with some light orchestral accompaniment.  That's the 1st movement.  I stopped there.

Is this an objectively bad thing though? Or a matter of preference of style?

[dizzyfingers]

Is this an objectively bad thing though? Or a matter of preference of style?

True, it may have been very intentional.  Doesn't hurt to compare it to his other concerti - the piano concerto has much more integration of soloist and orchestra.  I haven't listened to the cello concerto - it's on the list.
He wrote it quite quickly, it was for Joachim.
The story about how the concerto was hidden for many years is interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto_(Schumann)

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Oh sh*t Mjjames what�s up?

[thalbergmad]

Ahinton was right, the 3rd movement in Schumann's concerto is just simply brilliant.

I don't recall hm saying that. If he did, he might also have mentioned that he used the same short theme about a million times because Schumann lacked the skill of development.
I can listen to the Schumann Piano Sonatas without want to kill myself, but the concerto is unimaginative horse turd.
Thal

[yqxpiano]

I�ve been reading this thread, and I haven�t listened to much Schumann before�
So IS Schumann a good composer? I want your objective answer.

I don�t care whether you like his music, I want to know whether you think he is a good composer. Some people don�t like Bach/Lang Lang etc. but I think Bach is 100% a great composer and Lang Lang is a great pianist no matter if you like him or not (feel free to attack me for this).

If Schumann isn�t a good composer, why is he so popular? Why isn�t he a good composer?
If he is, why is he a good composer?

[dizzyfingers]

I�ve been reading this thread, and I haven�t listened to much Schumann before�
So IS Schumann a good composer? I want your objective answer.

I don�t care whether you like his music, I want to know whether you think he is a good composer. Some people don�t like Bach/Lang Lang etc. but I think Bach is 100% a great composer and Lang Lang is a great pianist no matter if you like him or not (feel free to attack me for this).

If Schumann isn�t a good composer, why is he so popular? Why isn�t he a good composer?
If he is, why is he a good composer?

Sounds like you're asking for an in-depth answer based a graduate student level + knowledge and understanding ... not sure you'll find that here.  Why don't you read the Wikipedia article on Schumann?  That will answer your questions to some degree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schumann

Then perhaps ask a question about something said in the article...

Enjoy your journey into Schumann-land.

[brogers70]

I�ve been reading this thread, and I haven�t listened to much Schumann before�
So IS Schumann a good composer? I want your objective answer.

I don�t care whether you like his music, I want to know whether you think he is a good composer. Some people don�t like Bach/Lang Lang etc. but I think Bach is 100% a great composer and Lang Lang is a great pianist no matter if you like him or not (feel free to attack me for this).

If Schumann isn�t a good composer, why is he so popular? Why isn�t he a good composer?
If he is, why is he a good composer?

I can think of objective ways to determine whether a composer is popular now, was popular (among music critics) in the past, was prolific, was financially successful, is alive or dead......but I cannot think of an objective way to determine whether a composer was a "good" composer. I can tell you whether and why I like or dislike a composer's music, or why other people say they like or dislike it, but I cannot think of an objective criteria for musical goodness.

[essence]

It took me a long time to appreciate Schumann, although I always liked the concerto.
At moments he can be truly magical. Take the fantasie, or In Der Nacht.

The latter is very difficult to be convincing in the quiet central parts. Brendel is excellent.

i=k6oE9xUTMeLxIJvC
from 1:12

I don't know any other composer who can depict the delicacy and uncertainty of love.
The outer sections any decent pianist can play competently.

Maybe you have to have experiences of overwhelming romantic love to appreciate Schumann.

Moisevitch is of course a genius too.

i=IdNd_ooCUW8meoOv

[essence]

Inspired me to go run through the fantasie.

[jake the snake]

I just got started on his last work, the Ghost Variations 🍀💚

[dizzyfingers]

I just got started on his last work, the Ghost Variations 🍀💚

Thanks for mentioning, hadn't heard about these.
I looked it up on YT.
Interesting story:

"On the night of 17 February 1854, Schumann, suffering from severe aural hallucinations, claimed that he heard angels dictating a theme to him. If Clara Schumann�s diary entries are to be believed, Schumann immediately wrote down the theme, and on either 22 or 23 February started writing variations on it. (All that survives of this first draft is a single page of music, and so we cannot know if at this stage Schumann completed work on the variations, though is likely he had not). At 2 in the afternoon of 27 February Schumann tried to drown himself in the icy Rhine; he was rescued by bargemen who dragged him ashore. The next day he returned to these variations and (it seems) completed them. He sent the work to Clara, but by then she had already left to stay with a friend at the advice of a doctor. On 4 March Schumann voluntarily committed himself to an asylum in Endenich, where he would die just a little over 2 years later. The Geistervariationen (�Ghost Variations�) are Schumann�s last work. He did not seem to realise that the lovely chorale theme that he wrote down was one he had used several times before: in the 2nd mvt of his Violin Concerto in D min (in a fragmentary form), the 2nd mvt of his 2nd String Quartet, and the Lieder-Album f�r die Jugend (No.19, Fr�hlings Ankunft, with a different harmonic colour). Clara forbade the publication of the work (we don�t know why � possibly they were too personal, possibly she thought it was not musically up to par with Schumann�s earlier work), and it was only until 1939 that the work saw print, although Brahms wrote a set of 4-hand variations on Schumann�s theme in 1861.  The Ghost Variations are, like most of Schumann's late work, extraordinarily intimate. All the variations cleave closely to the original theme, never quite departing its soundscape, and the original melody is always present."

The last variation is wonderful.