Learning a new score

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
As an old beginner I have found learning a new score more effective to ‘learn ‘ the Treble and Bass lines together, bar by bar. This with the muscle memory seems to, eventually, form a continuous pattern as I eventually progress through the score (beginner early intermediate levels ).

I have read that learning the Treble only, then the Bass, then combining is also very effective. I do not seem to be able to combine both as effectively as learning both treble and Bass together.

I have spent little time on learning the T and B, separately. My teacher keeps encouraging me to preserve with this method.

Perhaps as an old fart I am wired differently.

From those who have taught what has been your most effective approach.

Thank you in advance.

Best regards
John

[hopefulauditionpasser]

In baroque music i separate the voices which usually ends up separating the hands.

In classical music i separate the hands when the runs come in (i.e beginning of 3rd mvmt beethoven les adieux, any mozart sonata ever). Same thing applies to romantic cadenzas.

I also separate the hands when i first encounter difficult techniques. Ex. (Alborada del gracioso repeated notes, first time playing fast octaves). That way i start with the least amount of tension possible.

I also separate the hands if I have in-depth phrasing.

tldr: its hard = seperate, its easy = together

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
Thank you for the reply. I was curious if learning T, then B, them combining was considered the norm.
To me, learning the T and B ( bar/ measure by bar ) forms a pattern or flow
with appropriate muscle memory, as a kind of completion to that section.
I understand how a similar arrangement can be achieved learning T, then B. But ( very bad English ) now we have the combination of two different patterns and different muscle memories. It would just appear logical that this would initiate unnecessary or momentary confusion.

Unfortunately with limited replies I am now non the wiser and possible following a very incorrect pathway.

Regards
John

[brogers70]

If you practice hands separately, there is indeed a bit of a struggle to put the hands together - but over time you'll get better at it. I'm reasonably advanced and often practice hands separate, especially for more complex music. There's no one right answer here. It's good to work on sight reading simple things hands together, that develops a different set of skills. It's fine to work slowly hands together, too. But I would not rule out doing some hands separate practice - it lets you focus on the mechanics of one hand at a time, and that can sometimes be more efficient than trying to do both hands at once.

[johnvw]

Dear brogers70,
Thank you, I was really looking for confirmation that I may be travelling down the incorrect path.
Strange, so many views and so limited comments.
Regards
John

[jonslaughter]

You do what best works for you. It is that simple.

My only suggestion is that sometimes one thinks they know what is best for themselves and so actually limit themselves.

I use either method. It depends on what I see and how complex it is. Some things you simply cannot effectively do hands together unless you are really good and already have a lot of experience behind you(essentially you've already learned the piece through other pieces).


If you can easily do hands together then do it. It's more efficient as long as you are actually learning and playing it well.

The entire point of doing hands separate is to be able to reduce the mental load. If the piece is easy, if you already can sight read well, etc then there is no point in doing it hands separately.

If you are playing a difficult piece(e.g., say something like waterfall) then it is pointless to play hands together at the start. The piece is 99% the RH and the LH is so simple that it can be added once you have a feel for the piece. Of course if you do not have any trouble with the hands together from the start and it doesn't slow you down then since you have to play hands together eventually then do it.


The only point is music is the end result. How you get there is irrelevant. You take the path of least resistance. Of course I'm lying, the path does matter and in some sense it's all that matters. It's about learning how to learn.

My suggestion is that you try to do hands separate. You might find that you actually learn the music better and it feels better when you do it that way. You say you find it harder but technically if you can play it hands together from the start then learning them separately and combining them should be just as easy.

Typically though when someone learns hands together they end up lacking in some way. Also sometimes when a person learns hands separate they may not be able to put it together well(as in your case). It's better not to have these issues.

You should be able to learn either way. If you can that means you have more learning to do.

Typically in a piece that has a melodic hand(typically RH obviously) it is better to learn it by itself because you can focus on making it more lyrical. I like to think of such lines as a solo instrument like a violin or flute because in some sense such melodic lines are very easy to play but also can be hard to perfect because of nuances.

If you learn hands together you likely will treat the melody more as harmony and the entire piece becomes somewhat stagnant. There are small nuances and timing differences that the melodic line will need to have to make it seem like a separate melody and if you just pound everything out together it won't "sing". E.g., when two people get together and play there will be a sense of independence that one doesn't easily get with one person. Usually this can be quite terrible sounding if the timing and balance is not done well but when it is done well it sounds better than having things "too perfect". There are reasons why. E.g., having some slight timing differences actually allows the music to breath and gives "space" for the sound(due to making room in the harmonic spectrum).

Of course if you can do all this naturally then you don't need to worry about it but how do you know you are doing it naturally? Normally it takes many years to perfect, maybe a life time.

So my only point is to tell you that you should make sure you are not cheating yourself. If you struggle with hands separate there is a reason for that and it means you are lacking some ability and you should work on that so that you can make sure you have covered all your bases.

I originally had the opposite problem. I could play hands separate pretty easy but had major issues combining them(I guess it's the same issue you have but I couldn't do hands together first). It took a lot of slow practice of playing hands together to get comfortable with it.  I had to work through a song book of rather simple pieces to get the feel for it.

I think the problem is likely you are playing simple songs and these simple songs have such simple melodies and harmonies that it likely does not feel good to you to play them separate. You probably do not have enough context to keep your mind focused and interested so you find it difficult. But with hands together you find there is enough there to maintain the interest and it is simple enough to do it. If you are playing simple pieces you should try something much harder and see if you find it "as easy" or hands separate seems easier. For me, I get so overwhelmed that I simply can't do it without making a lot of mistakes. Partly, for me, is that I have to be extremely certain I'm playing something correctly or I constantly feel uncertain and this slows me down. So playing hands separate lets me memorize them much faster which speeds up the process.


It really depends on the piece of music in a lot of cases. Some things can look hard but be easy, other things can look easy but be hard. Ultimately you have to figure it out yourself. All I can say is that if you limit yourself you will eventually run into a wall and you won't realize why you can't get past it. The reason is because you haven't learned to get past walls.

There technically is no right or wrong way to do anything. You have a goal and that is to be able to play music well. How you achieve that goal is irrelevant. If you never have any issues then you are lucky and don't have to worry. If you have constant issues(like me) then you have to learn as many tricks as you can to try to make it work. It's different for everyone.

What I have learned in my experience is that if there is something I struggle with I better learn it because it's something that slows me down. It's how I get better. If a person only does things they can do well then they likely will reach a point where they cannot progress any further because they've locked themselves into a mentality of preconceived ideas that they can't escape("can't teach an old dog new tricks").

You haven't given the type of music you are playing. Just remember that music is very complex and there is a lot of it. Also everyone is different.

If I could only give myself one piece of advice when I was starting out it would be to simply do as much as possible and don't stop or worry. You have to try things to know and a lot of things take time to develop.

Don't worry if you are on the "right path". Just make sure you don't get stuck on a single path. The more paths you know the more ways you have. As you learn you will see this and it is one of the greatest things about music IMO. It teaches you how to learn. You find out all these different ways of doing things and how your mind and body works. It's true of many different things but music, IMO, is fascinating in that way because when you get the right way of doing or looking at things you can improve your abilities tremendously. The only way to know this though is when you have spend a long time doing things ineffectively like I have then finally realize there is a better way. You do this enough and you realize there is always a better way and it's about trying to get the right perspective. Then you realize the only way to get the right perspective is to try all perspectives(within reason since there is a fight amount of time). Same thing happens, say, with chess, or anything. You find that you are your own worst enemy because you typically lock yourself into a mode of thinking that is flawed. Most people are like this and they never learn how to escape it because they don't realize they are locked in.

[johnvw]

Dear Jonslaughter
Apologies for the late reply, I seemed to be locked out of the Forum for some reason.
Thank you for your reply.
Although it is early days in regard to learning separately, I am endeavouring to learn the more difficult, Treble or Bass separately, then add the other. Perhaps it is just the  way I am  wired.

 Evertheless at the end of the day, I still find joy in the learning process, albeit mixed with massive frustration.


Best regards
John

[essence]

I don;t think you should get too hung up about hands together or separate. Also do not get too hung up on what the teacher says, it is just a suggestion.

I think most people do both. Try with hands together, try again hands separate, try again hands together. In one practice session, or for the same few bars.

Can you give an example of a piece you are learning?

[picosinge]

I am endeavouring to learn the more difficult, Treble or Bass separately, then add the other. Perhaps it is just the  way I am  wired.

Evertheless at the end of the day, I still find joy in the learning process, albeit mixed with massive frustration.

How good are you with sight reading with respect to playing by ear?  I ask because I have known people who play almost strictly by reading, and people who play by ear. Most people fall in between and play by sight AND ear, some leaning more towards one spectrum or another. 

If you are more of a play by ear type, you usually hear the music with the bass and treble together, therefore it is easier to replicate it with both hands.  Maybe you can do an experiment with a piece of music you have never hear before and try learning 8 bars separately, and 8 bars together to find out what are your type.

I do it all.  Sometimes I tackle a new piece with both hands, sometimes with separately.  There is also a Polish pianist that advocates memorizing the bass and treble separately!  What I find helpful (again, each person is different, not prescribing, just sharing) is to mix things up to avoid going on autopilot and doing things purely on muscle memory.

[jonslaughter]

Dear Jonslaughter
Apologies for the late reply, I seemed to be locked out of the Forum for some reason.
Thank you for your reply.
Although it is early days in regard to learning separately, I am endeavouring to learn the more difficult, Treble or Bass separately, then add the other. Perhaps it is just the  way I am  wired.

 Evertheless at the end of the day, I still find joy in the learning process, albeit mixed with massive frustration.


Best regards
John

Just remember that it is all a learning experience. You have to learn how you work. If you play chess you too will experience such a thing, also math, also anything else(tennis, painting, programming, etc).

Your preconceived notions and habits are generally what hold you back and much of learning, after some point of mastering the basics, is overcoming these preconceived notions. once you realize it's basically that(more or less) then you really start to accelerate in learning.

For me, and likely for you, the biggest axiom should be "work on your weakest link". That is, if you can't do something that is something you should focus on. Why? Because you can't do it. If you can't do it then you will make the most gain by doing it. It's not complicated.

What happens is we tend to focus on what we are good at because it makes us feel like we have achieved something(which we have) and easy feels good and hard feels bad. We don't want to feel like we are constantly struggling... yet that is exactly what we have to do to progress. Even the best are constantly struggling against some ideal in their mind. Everyone is trying to achieve something.

What typically happens is that when our idea of how things work and how things really work are not correctly aligned we end up "spinning our wheels". When you learn enough things, which means you struggled over enough "problems", you start to see these patterns... just like in music. Typically there is a certain approach to solving problems(e.g., the scientific method, etc). But to know which problems to work on to give the best result is to find those problems that seem to be the biggest.

E.g., if you had to break boulders for a living and got paid by how much rubble you could make. How would you optimize this? Would you find the smallest pebbles and break those or would you start with the biggest boulders? That latter is equivalent to finding the weakest link.

Since you say you struggle with hands separate, that is a weak link. Maybe or maybe not the weakest but definitely a "large boulder" you could tackle that will make a big difference. You might have other weak links that need to be worked on too.  (e.g., do you play with a metronome, do you know enough theory, etc)

So the learning process, in some ways, starts with diagnosing those weakest links. Sometimes it's very different than what we think. E.g., maybe your weakest link in piano is actually exercising or psychology. Yes, those things are important too for piano! Everything is connected in some way.