Learning a new score

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
As an old beginner I have found learning a new score more effective to ‘learn ‘ the Treble and Bass lines together, bar by bar. This with the muscle memory seems to, eventually, form a continuous pattern as I eventually progress through the score (beginner early intermediate levels ).

I have read that learning the Treble only, then the Bass, then combining is also very effective. I do not seem to be able to combine both as effectively as learning both treble and Bass together.

I have spent little time on learning the T and B, separately. My teacher keeps encouraging me to preserve with this method.

Perhaps as an old fart I am wired differently.

From those who have taught what has been your most effective approach.

Thank you in advance.

Best regards
John

[hopefulauditionpasser]

In baroque music i separate the voices which usually ends up separating the hands.

In classical music i separate the hands when the runs come in (i.e beginning of 3rd mvmt beethoven les adieux, any mozart sonata ever). Same thing applies to romantic cadenzas.

I also separate the hands when i first encounter difficult techniques. Ex. (Alborada del gracioso repeated notes, first time playing fast octaves). That way i start with the least amount of tension possible.

I also separate the hands if I have in-depth phrasing.

tldr: its hard = seperate, its easy = together

[johnvw]

Hi to All,
Thank you for the reply. I was curious if learning T, then B, them combining was considered the norm.
To me, learning the T and B ( bar/ measure by bar ) forms a pattern or flow
with appropriate muscle memory, as a kind of completion to that section.
I understand how a similar arrangement can be achieved learning T, then B. But ( very bad English ) now we have the combination of two different patterns and different muscle memories. It would just appear logical that this would initiate unnecessary or momentary confusion.

Unfortunately with limited replies I am now non the wiser and possible following a very incorrect pathway.

Regards
John

[brogers70]

If you practice hands separately, there is indeed a bit of a struggle to put the hands together - but over time you'll get better at it. I'm reasonably advanced and often practice hands separate, especially for more complex music. There's no one right answer here. It's good to work on sight reading simple things hands together, that develops a different set of skills. It's fine to work slowly hands together, too. But I would not rule out doing some hands separate practice - it lets you focus on the mechanics of one hand at a time, and that can sometimes be more efficient than trying to do both hands at once.

[johnvw]

Dear brogers70,
Thank you, I was really looking for confirmation that I may be travelling down the incorrect path.
Strange, so many views and so limited comments.
Regards
John

[jonslaughter]

You do what best works for you. It is that simple.

My only suggestion is that sometimes one thinks they know what is best for themselves and so actually limit themselves.

I use either method. It depends on what I see and how complex it is. Some things you simply cannot effectively do hands together unless you are really good and already have a lot of experience behind you(essentially you've already learned the piece through other pieces).


If you can easily do hands together then do it. It's more efficient as long as you are actually learning and playing it well.

The entire point of doing hands separate is to be able to reduce the mental load. If the piece is easy, if you already can sight read well, etc then there is no point in doing it hands separately.

If you are playing a difficult piece(e.g., say something like waterfall) then it is pointless to play hands together at the start. The piece is 99% the RH and the LH is so simple that it can be added once you have a feel for the piece. Of course if you do not have any trouble with the hands together from the start and it doesn't slow you down then since you have to play hands together eventually then do it.


The only point is music is the end result. How you get there is irrelevant. You take the path of least resistance. Of course I'm lying, the path does matter and in some sense it's all that matters. It's about learning how to learn.

My suggestion is that you try to do hands separate. You might find that you actually learn the music better and it feels better when you do it that way. You say you find it harder but technically if you can play it hands together from the start then learning them separately and combining them should be just as easy.

Typically though when someone learns hands together they end up lacking in some way. Also sometimes when a person learns hands separate they may not be able to put it together well(as in your case). It's better not to have these issues.

You should be able to learn either way. If you can that means you have more learning to do.

Typically in a piece that has a melodic hand(typically RH obviously) it is better to learn it by itself because you can focus on making it more lyrical. I like to think of such lines as a solo instrument like a violin or flute because in some sense such melodic lines are very easy to play but also can be hard to perfect because of nuances.

If you learn hands together you likely will treat the melody more as harmony and the entire piece becomes somewhat stagnant. There are small nuances and timing differences that the melodic line will need to have to make it seem like a separate melody and if you just pound everything out together it won't "sing". E.g., when two people get together and play there will be a sense of independence that one doesn't easily get with one person. Usually this can be quite terrible sounding if the timing and balance is not done well but when it is done well it sounds better than having things "too perfect". There are reasons why. E.g., having some slight timing differences actually allows the music to breath and gives "space" for the sound(due to making room in the harmonic spectrum).

Of course if you can do all this naturally then you don't need to worry about it but how do you know you are doing it naturally? Normally it takes many years to perfect, maybe a life time.

So my only point is to tell you that you should make sure you are not cheating yourself. If you struggle with hands separate there is a reason for that and it means you are lacking some ability and you should work on that so that you can make sure you have covered all your bases.

I originally had the opposite problem. I could play hands separate pretty easy but had major issues combining them(I guess it's the same issue you have but I couldn't do hands together first). It took a lot of slow practice of playing hands together to get comfortable with it.  I had to work through a song book of rather simple pieces to get the feel for it.

I think the problem is likely you are playing simple songs and these simple songs have such simple melodies and harmonies that it likely does not feel good to you to play them separate. You probably do not have enough context to keep your mind focused and interested so you find it difficult. But with hands together you find there is enough there to maintain the interest and it is simple enough to do it. If you are playing simple pieces you should try something much harder and see if you find it "as easy" or hands separate seems easier. For me, I get so overwhelmed that I simply can't do it without making a lot of mistakes. Partly, for me, is that I have to be extremely certain I'm playing something correctly or I constantly feel uncertain and this slows me down. So playing hands separate lets me memorize them much faster which speeds up the process.


It really depends on the piece of music in a lot of cases. Some things can look hard but be easy, other things can look easy but be hard. Ultimately you have to figure it out yourself. All I can say is that if you limit yourself you will eventually run into a wall and you won't realize why you can't get past it. The reason is because you haven't learned to get past walls.

There technically is no right or wrong way to do anything. You have a goal and that is to be able to play music well. How you achieve that goal is irrelevant. If you never have any issues then you are lucky and don't have to worry. If you have constant issues(like me) then you have to learn as many tricks as you can to try to make it work. It's different for everyone.

What I have learned in my experience is that if there is something I struggle with I better learn it because it's something that slows me down. It's how I get better. If a person only does things they can do well then they likely will reach a point where they cannot progress any further because they've locked themselves into a mentality of preconceived ideas that they can't escape("can't teach an old dog new tricks").

You haven't given the type of music you are playing. Just remember that music is very complex and there is a lot of it. Also everyone is different.

If I could only give myself one piece of advice when I was starting out it would be to simply do as much as possible and don't stop or worry. You have to try things to know and a lot of things take time to develop.

Don't worry if you are on the "right path". Just make sure you don't get stuck on a single path. The more paths you know the more ways you have. As you learn you will see this and it is one of the greatest things about music IMO. It teaches you how to learn. You find out all these different ways of doing things and how your mind and body works. It's true of many different things but music, IMO, is fascinating in that way because when you get the right way of doing or looking at things you can improve your abilities tremendously. The only way to know this though is when you have spend a long time doing things ineffectively like I have then finally realize there is a better way. You do this enough and you realize there is always a better way and it's about trying to get the right perspective. Then you realize the only way to get the right perspective is to try all perspectives(within reason since there is a fight amount of time). Same thing happens, say, with chess, or anything. You find that you are your own worst enemy because you typically lock yourself into a mode of thinking that is flawed. Most people are like this and they never learn how to escape it because they don't realize they are locked in.