Feedback needed

[natnn_]

I've been working on Chopin’s Waltz Op. 64,No. 1 and would really appreciate some constructive criticism. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YKZKzi8lHQY&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.talkclassical.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE

[jonslaughter]

Not sure. Sounds like your piano is a little out of tune and isn't doing your playing justice. And/Or the audio recording is not sounding good. Does it sound pretty close to what you hear live or do you notice a big difference?

You should verify these are not issues and if they are then fix them else people are going to be judging the sound more than your playing. Your playing is good enough. There are clearly some things that can be worked on such as dynamics, some minor timing issues here and there but those all fix themselves with time the more you play the piece and get into it.  The recording quality could explain both of them in theory but less so the timing issues(which again, are quite minor).

First learn to tune your piano yourself  so you can always do it when it is needed. It's not hard. Maybe get a guitar and learn to tune that first if you are worried. This way you can always make sure your piano is sounding it's best and over time you will get better at recognizing it and how to make it sound better.

Then try to get some decent audio recording setup. This mainly involves a stereo mic setup. You don't have to spend much money but it might be hard to get the right mics that work for you. You likely could easily find some decent mics under 100 or so. You'll probably need an audio interface that has XLR inputs(2 at least) which would cost another 100 or so(you can get a cheap one or used and it might work well but it might not be great. Usually today even the cheap ones are pretty decent because of technology).

This way you are presenting the best sound and it isn't distorting your playing. It also helps for a historical record.

But all I can really criticize on my end, besides those things which are not directly related to your "playing", is the dynamics and timing. These are minor criticisms but areas which you can improve. Basically you have all the notes down so it's all about expressiveness at this point. Do you or can you play to a metronome? Can you play it a little faster(or even a lot faster since that can help solidify playing it slower)? Can you exaggerate dynamics? (Again, the dynamics may not be accurate here if the mic recording it is compressing the sound)

The way I would put it to you is "make everything more dramatic". Maybe even absurdly dramatic. Once you know the limits you can back off to taste. Exaggerate everything. Do you have this piece well memorized or are you sight reading it all or most of it? Do you feel confident about playing it or does it feel like you are focused on playing the notes more than making music? If you are focused on the notes you are less focused on the music. In this case, just play the piece about 100 times in a row. It will only take a couple of hours. You will feel a significant difference. Each time you play it the notes will recede into the distance and you will start to see the music. You will start to see the dynamics, the colorations, rubato, etc. Play half to a metronome, half free(you could alternate or change every 10 or whatever).

You have to get to the point where the song is memorized so have full control. The notes should no longer be an issue and effectively your fingers are on autopilot. From there you can direct them in terms of the larger musical aspects. Don't be afraid to try things. Also, let your mind wonder a bit(it should happen naturally) and make the song a story.

Remember, it's not just about the notes. In fact, the notes are, in some ways, the least important. Of course in some ways they are the most important but you already got that out of the way. If you have never played a song 100 times in a row after you have the notes down then maybe this is the time to try it to see the result? I think you will be amazed at what it produces.

[essence]

Tuning a pianp yourself is fraught with danger and you can riin the pins. In addition it is much more difficult than you may imagone. Look up some videos and tutorials and go on a 3 week training course
 I ttied it once and had to call a preofessional tuner

You have to learn to hear beats of harmonics and know how fast the beats should be and knpw how to adjust pins so they are stable long term

Of course it depends on quality of piano if you want to risk ruining it.

[quantum]

You need to work more with the RH at evenness and tonal control.  A recurring point is at cadences where you have C - Db (Fingers 1 - 2).  Many times you play it rushed, relative to the speed of the rest of the passage work. 

Free up your wrists and forearms.  For fast passage work like this, the movements don't just happen at the fingers, you need to involve your entire playing apparatus. 

[jonslaughter]

Tuning a pianp yourself is fraught with danger and you can riin the pins. In addition it is much more difficult than you may imagone. Look up some videos and tutorials and go on a 3 week training course
 I ttied it once and had to call a preofessional tuner

You have to learn to hear beats of harmonics and know how fast the beats should be and knpw how to adjust pins so they are stable long term

Of course it depends on quality of piano if you want to risk ruining it.

Not true with some common sense. Get the right tools. You do not need to use your ears. Even cheap tuners are really good now days. Watching a few videos first will help. Obviously you have to be careful to not go crazy but making small adjustments and making and not overtightening is the way to go. Obviously one wouldn't want to do this on a grand piano but tuning is not difficult. More difficult on a piano than any other instrument but it's literally just turning a knob. Obviously if you have zero mechanical skill you likely shouldn't be doing anything. But this is not rocket science. The risk of ruining it after watching a few videos and having some mechanical awareness is pretty slim. You clearly have to have some idea how to tune. Hence getting a cheap guitar to learn on first for a few weeks or months if you have zero knowledge.

Of course maybe I'm biased since I have tuned many instruments and have background in math and physics. Maybe for the average piano player they are clueless to such things and can't learn easily?

Also, it depends on how out of tune it is. Since the piano is only slightly out of tune it is far less risky than trying to either tune up from scratch or tune a very out of tune piano.

Remember, your experiences are not the same for everyone else. You shouldn't push your own experiences as if everyone else will have the same. You failed when you tried. It could have been because you didn't know what you were doing at all or maybe the piano itself had issues and you weren't aware of.

I wouldn't suggest anyone grab a wrench or pliers and start turning things obviously.

[ Invalid YouTube link ]tuning+a+piano

First video that popped up:

I watched it and basically it's that easy. Of course there are pitfalls but any attentive person shouldn't have issues. This is not like tuning an acoustic organ.

Anyways,  there are many other videos out there and some go into more detail. For example, I would dampen all the strings rather than leave them up like he did. This way one avoids sympathetic vibrations from interfering. Other than that, it is basically that easy.

I don't know how you screwed things up. It happens of course but likely your experiences are not even close to being the common experience. Maybe this happened before YT had so many videos on it? In fact, it is easier and safer to tune a more expensive piano than a cheap one. Maybe you had a cheap one? Or maybe you are a piano tuner?


Another video that popped up:

I guess I'm now going to get tons of piano tuning vids in my recommendations ;/

Also, it is a very good skill to have because one can tune the piano regularly themselves rather than having to wait to save money(and you never know if the piano tuner is good or not). This means smaller changes. Also the piano will settle in the tuning over time which makes it resonate more in that tuning.

Now, technically there are other tunings such as stretch tuning that might be better and that could be a little more complicated without a good metronome. Also not all metronomes are easy to use as some jump around more since they do not smooth out the changes and this could through some people off.

[geopianoincanada]

I agree with "quantum". Piano issues aside, it's a very challenging piece. I could never attempt it. Keep up the effort and it will be smoother. Right now it's a diamond in the rough.

[lostinidlewonder]

You'd pass an exam here in Australia if you played it like that, no problems. You have a strong foundation here and I'm sure it won't take much to push it further. Keep it up!

[essence]

i think the issue of piano tuning deserves a sperate thread ,so if there isn;t one I will start one. I have a PhD in theoretical physics, so know a bit about strong and vibrations. I know it is more complex - real strings are not the same as idealised strings, and there are many interactions going on.

It is of course horses for couses. How valuable/quality is the piano, is it tuning for private practice or a concert etc.

i am NOT a piano tuner.

BTW, I am fully competent on the mechics, when I said 'screw up' I was exaggerating, this was in 1975 before any youtube or google. i got it refurbished in 2010, new pins and pin blocks, the existing ones were no good, soundboard repaired, completely new action, new strings. Piano was manufactured around start of 20th century, top quality German upright grand. Spent $10 grand on the refurbish, it is an everlasting instrument for future generations.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php?topic=72294.0

[natnn_]

Thank you all for the feedback! The piano sound might be due to it being recorded on a phone, or possibly because the piano itself is quite old. As for the piece, I’ll work on improving my timing with more practice.

I've been playing piano since I was a child, playing just notes not correct time, and only really got into it last year after discovering and falling in love with Chopin's music. Last year, I started taking lessons with a teacher said that I should start with Trinity grade 8 instead of 1. Currently, I still struggle with understanding counting and time signatures, not sure how to fix that.

[quantum]

Currently, I still struggle with understanding counting and time signatures, not sure how to fix that.

Work on developing skills at rhythm.  Counting and time signatures are both elements that help one to understand rhythm.  Do rhythmic practice away from the piano with clapping, tapping, walking and dancing exercises.  Nice thing about rhythmic practice is that it is easy to fit into everyday life.  Eg: Waiting at a red light, do a 30 second rhythmic exercise.  It might sound like an insignificant amount of time to practice, but it really does add up.  The objective is to make rhythm an integral part of your body movements, to make it as natural an action as walking.

[jonslaughter]

Thank you all for the feedback! The piano sound might be due to it being recorded on a phone, or possibly because the piano itself is quite old. As for the piece, I’ll work on improving my timing with more practice.

I've been playing piano since I was a child, playing just notes not correct time, and only really got into it last year after discovering and falling in love with Chopin's music. Last year, I started taking lessons with a teacher said that I should start with Trinity grade 8 instead of 1. Currently, I still struggle with understanding counting and time signatures, not sure how to fix that.

Work with a metronome. I too struggled with counting and time signatures and was very bad at rhythm. I had no internal rhythm so everything seemed very vague. You could also get a drum set, it will make a huge difference since Drums are all about time and meter. It helps internalize the beat which is extremely important. It made a 100% difference in how I perceived music and it improved everything from reading to feel.

But working with a metronome is immensely important. It's how you know what time is.  It can take years to get it down depending much you practice and need but you should be able to play to a metronome.

Since you know that piece get a metronome and set it to a tempo in which you can play through it. Your goal is timing. Every click you should land on it exactly without stress(of course sometimes it can be harder than other times which is why practicing regularly is key). Chopin played with a metronome and said it was absolutely necessary for proper rubato. This might seem contradictory but without having a true understanding of time you can't have any reference for true rubato(how do you know since rubato is relative to strict time). It also tightens up all your playing and helps you understand how things like waltzes relate to strict time.

That is, a metronome is not there to tell you how to play in time, it's there to teach you what time is so you can understand how to break away from it and to feel the inflections that it creates. In some ways when you constrain yourself to be very rigid it can be very difficult but in that it teaches you a lot.

As far as counting and time signatures go. It takes practice. 1. Understand the theory. Counting is simply to divide up time like a measure/ruler. In fact, it's exactly the same mathematics generally speaking. That is, one divides a beat(the "standard unit") in to "half beats" and half beats into quarters, etc. Any book or video should explain it. But note one is simply dividing time so one can properly measure it. 2. Connect the notation to the divisions. A good way to help with this is to to simply watch scores(don't play) and count. Slow things down enough so you can count it all. Note that generally speaking you won't actually have to count things once you reach a certain point. The counting is necessary to make sure you know how to play complex rhythms rather than just fudging it. 3. Time signatures are just ways in which beats are grouped and the basic note and division are used for notation.

Again, any book on "theory" should explain this stuff. It's actually very basic stuff but may seem odd at first. If you play to a metronome and try to count stuff(start with simple music) you'll get it. If you get some drums(could be something simple, even a "practice pad") you'll likely get it much faster since all drumming is focused on is time and rhythm.

It isn't something that one knows, one has to learn it so it's just another thing to practice. If you get in a habit of using a metronome every day it will fix a lot of stuff. If you are not mentally thinking and feeling in terms of beats, bars, and subdivisons you are making it very difficult on yourself. When I first started playing and had no real sense of time and meter I could memorize pieces and play them but I always struggled with any "gaps" because I had no idea how long to "wait". So I would inevitably rush things and come in too soon. I could play things that were a "stream" of notes but any "strange" rhythms were difficult and I'd have to practice them with the recording to get them down but I had no idea what they were. In any case, after working on timing and rhythm(mainly with a drum set) it changed everything. I, in fact, now love to practice to a metronome. While it can be difficult to play around with time one can, in fact, learn to play out of time with the metronome and understand how it relates. This is ultimately what rubato is all about. In some ways it is the art of being out of time while in time.

Anyways, the nature of it can't be explained because it has to be learned and developed over many years but at some point one gets it. You have to learn how to do the basics such as counting and what the notation means and all that and it needs to be practiced because it sets the foundation. But at some point it all combines and a new world emerges. E.g., as you learn more Chopin you will see that too. You will see things you don't see now. Just how the world works as it is true of anything.

There are all kinds of ways to practice it and really it is up to you to investigate and learn about it all. Just the process of researching is learning about it. A metronome should be a very important tool to any serious musician. It has perfect time. How can you know if your timing is correct if you don't have something to compare? Can you take a metronome and set it to some tempo like 100 bpm, 60 bpm,20 bpm, 200bpm, etc and easily tap nearly perfectly along with it without any strain what so ever? Can you divide the clicks where you tap twice as fast, three times as fast? half as fast? There are all kinds of tests you can check to see how far along you are. If you can't tap along at 60 bpm without getting off or having trouble then you need to definitely work with a metronome. You can then start counting like 1 e a e 2 e a e for 16th notes (in 4/4 you count up to 4 and each "division" is noted as a 16th note). In any case, you should familiarize yourself with it all. It will pay off sooner or later.