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Topic: pianissimo  (Read 1050 times)

Offline orgarnic

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pianissimo
on: August 31, 2025, 10:32:29 PM
It's kind of hard for me to play phrases at pianissimo without playing too softly and just straight up not playing the note. Any suggestions on how to improve this?

Offline aaronsf

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #1 on: September 03, 2025, 08:18:50 PM
It partially depends on the instrument.  Larger pianos (7-feet and up) can more easily reproduce pianissimo than smaller (or upright) instruments.  I played on a 170 cm grand for years and could never reliably produce pianissimo.  Then I got a 215 cm grand, and suddenly the pianissimos that eluded me before were now available to me.    Grands of 7 feet or more have longer keysticks than smaller grands, which I believe improves leverage and makes it possible to regulate large pianos more finely.

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #2 on: September 04, 2025, 12:33:48 AM
Dynamic indications are relative values, to the instrument, acoustic space, and musical context.   Every instrument has a finite dynamic gamut, everything you play has to fit inside of that.  The dynamic contrasts you intend to create in a piece needs to be mapped to the dynamic gamut of the instrument.  There is no point in trying to play a quieter pianissimo if the instrument is not capable of producing it in a controlled reliable manner.  You need to work with the instrument's capabilities.  If that means you are only capable of producing a smaller dynamic range, so be it: dynamic indications are relative. 

It is preferable to be playing a little louder, than to have non speaking pitches in an attempt to make the pianissimo quieter. 
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #3 on: September 04, 2025, 03:16:39 AM
I play on a 5.5 foot baby-grand piano, what do you know about this type of instrument? I know that you are supposed to play a little louder during recitals and stuff, but it isn't technically exciting or satisfying to play with a lower dynamic range. I can play fortissimo just fine(I know it is much easier), so is there any technique involved?

Offline essence

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #4 on: September 04, 2025, 07:17:46 AM
is there any technique involved?

I am sure there is, part of it must surely be relaxation, I would love to hear from teachers.

Chords as well as single notes.

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #5 on: September 04, 2025, 11:52:33 AM
It's kind of hard for me to play phrases at pianissimo without playing too softly and just straight up not playing the note. Any suggestions on how to improve this?

It's an important question for a student pianist and the problem of softer dynamics continues into the advanced stages and beyond.  There's no quick and easy answer.  There are so many variables, the piano, as some have mentioned, can present limitations, but most important is your physical/mental approach to playing.  You really should work with a teacher on this.  Which I think you, or someone, asked about in another post (advanced techniques without a teacher) ...

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #6 on: September 04, 2025, 10:03:27 PM
I play on a 5.5 foot baby-grand piano, what do you know about this type of instrument? I know that you are supposed to play a little louder during recitals and stuff, but it isn't technically exciting or satisfying to play with a lower dynamic range. I can play fortissimo just fine(I know it is much easier), so is there any technique involved?

For pianissimo technique, what is needed is to have the entire playing mechanism supported.  If you sing or have played a wind instrument, you've likely experienced your teacher discussing breath support.  Similar is needed when playing piano. 

It is easier to play loud, as many people will intuitively prepare their posture and align their playing mechanism to give more support.  Pianissimo playing can fall apart when support of the playing mechanism goes away.  Reliable, consistent, and controlled quiet playing requires more support not less. 


Can you post a video of your playing?  We could give more specific advice if we had a better idea of the challenges you are facing. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #7 on: September 05, 2025, 02:07:07 AM
I don't have good recording equipment, also I don't think it's safe for me to post my face on the internet anyways. Another problem I face is playing slower when playing quieter. This is really annoying because then I have to speed up every few bars.

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #8 on: September 05, 2025, 12:59:16 PM
I don't have good recording equipment, also I don't think it's safe for me to post my face on the internet anyways. Another problem I face is playing slower when playing quieter. This is really annoying because then I have to speed up every few bars.

sounds like a bumpy ride with piano mastery


Offline essence

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #9 on: September 05, 2025, 01:31:44 PM
Playing fast and quiet is very difficult. That is why Scriabin Fantasie, for example, is so difficult in parts, plus chopin nocturne op 48 no 1 doppio movimento. it would be much easier if forte.

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #10 on: September 05, 2025, 03:47:18 PM
I don't have good recording equipment, also I don't think it's safe for me to post my face on the internet anyways.

You don't need to show your face.  Hands and arms will tell us a lot about your playing.  Plenty of examples on Youtube on how to frame the video playing piano without ever showing your face.  Record using your phone or whatever you have available.


Another problem I face is playing slower when playing quieter. This is really annoying because then I have to speed up every few bars.

Does this mean you fluctuate your tempo along with the dynamic level?
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #11 on: September 05, 2025, 05:23:08 PM
It's kind of hard for me to play phrases at pianissimo without playing too softly and just straight up not playing the note. Any suggestions on how to improve this?

Have you searched YT for some tutorials on the topic?
This one popped up today, right on target, subject-wise.  I didn't actually watch it.



Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #12 on: September 06, 2025, 02:51:37 AM
Does this mean you fluctuate your tempo along with the dynamic level?

Exactly. Whenever I play quieter I play with a slower tempo, and whenever I play louder I(rarely) speed up.

About the recording thing, the only thing I can record on and still send to this website is my scuffed school computer, which has a horrible camera. In addition to that, my school computer(the one i'm making this post on) is large and bulky enough that there is absolutely no way to get a top-down view without falling off the piano. If you want, I can record a side view video, but you won't be able to see all the keys.

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #13 on: September 06, 2025, 02:53:16 AM
The video you sent actually has some pretty good insights. I might try this when I practice today.

Offline keypeg

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #14 on: September 06, 2025, 02:28:11 PM
For pianissimo technique, what is needed is to have the entire playing mechanism supported.  If you sing or have played a wind instrument, you've likely experienced your teacher discussing breath support.  Similar is needed when playing piano. 
I'd be interested in getting a picture of what this support looks like.  In singing, breath support has some specifics (and can also be taught horribly wrong), and I've seen some descriptions of this.  What does "support" for playing quietly look like in how you're picturing it?

Offline keypeg

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #15 on: September 06, 2025, 02:41:35 PM
I just watched the YT video put out by Dizzyfingers.  I remember this idea of "slow" and "fast" descent when my teacher over a decade ago told me about it.  If I had any concept at all, it was probably something like "forceful makes it loud", lol.  The other had been fingers relaxed like wet noodles for quiet, and rigid for loud, both of which are ineffective.  So the "slow / fast" descent was a first ticket.

You might see someone drop hands from some height  with more of the arm itself dropping into the keys for loud (a momentary force, and subsequent release) and maybe less movement and closer to the keys for quiet - both of which actually go back into faster or slower descent.

Through a weird set of events I recently ended up buying the Faber "Technique and Artistry" series for beginner and intermediate students.  It is meant as a supplement to the main books and focuses on the physical side of playing.  In a talk somewhere Randal Faber mentions getting a feel for the piano keys as an essential element, and it seems like he tried to bring that feel across through these books.  I am not a beginner, but these books got me to some new elements. Part of the entire mechanism gets explored, for example a "lift-off" after playing a note with the wrist rising in a two-note slur where the 2nd note is softer.  By working through and exploring the ideas there, I ended up with a better connection physically and to the piano than before.

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #16 on: September 07, 2025, 12:26:35 AM
I'd be interested in getting a picture of what this support looks like.  In singing, breath support has some specifics (and can also be taught horribly wrong), and I've seen some descriptions of this.  What does "support" for playing quietly look like in how you're picturing it?

It starts with skeletal alignment, where the shape of the fingers, hand, arm, shoulders and torso all form a connected and integrated mechanism.  Think of it like bricks forming an arch of a bridge.  Align the bricks correctly, and the arch supports the load placed upon it.  Small misalignment could weaken the structure, and more serious misalignment can cause total collapse. 

Muscular support puts the skeletal alignment in place, and insures that skeletal alignment remains steadfast as the body moves and flexes.  Joints remain flexible and supple throughout movements required for playing. 

The energy to play a resonant forte and delicately controlled pianissimo comes from the torso, and is transmitted via the muscular supported skeletal alignment.  This energy needs to be directed from the core of the body through to the fingertips. 

While a lot of teaching and pedagogical literature uses the term "weight", it is important to remember that the piano keyboard is velocity sensitive.  What we are trying to do with all this skeletal alignment and muscular support is to make our application of key velocity more accurate, reliable, controllable and repeatable.  All the while, we are aiming to form a playing mechanism that is positive for performers long term heath, and reduces unnecessary strain to the body. 


The wet noodle vs rigid finger explanation might work for young students as an introduction to dynamics, but it is not sustainable long term as the student advances in studies.  Firm and flexible, but not rigid fingers makes quiet playing easier, as it can lead to better consistency and reliability in producing quiet tone. 

Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #17 on: September 07, 2025, 12:35:05 AM
Exactly. Whenever I play quieter I play with a slower tempo, and whenever I play louder I(rarely) speed up.

About the recording thing, the only thing I can record on and still send to this website is my scuffed school computer, which has a horrible camera. In addition to that, my school computer(the one i'm making this post on) is large and bulky enough that there is absolutely no way to get a top-down view without falling off the piano. If you want, I can record a side view video, but you won't be able to see all the keys.

Just do what can with the equipment you have.  The sound is the most important part.  The video doesn't have to be perfect.  We are just trying to get an idea of what you are doing.  Nonetheless it is a good practice to record, as one day you may be asked to make an audition or demo video for school. 

Recording your playing is also a great learning tool.  You could do a recording journal of your practice.  No need to share your journal entries with anybody. 


Are you currently studying with a teacher?
Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #18 on: September 07, 2025, 02:22:12 AM
Yes I am studying with a teacher. Also, for the recording, what piece or exercise should I play?

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #19 on: September 07, 2025, 03:00:56 AM
When I try to press down on the keys slower, I just end up playing the piece too slow, because I wait until I'm done playing a key to move onto the next one. Am I just doing it wrong?

Offline quantum

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #20 on: September 07, 2025, 04:53:54 AM
Yes I am studying with a teacher.

Did your teacher give you any feedback on the issues you have brought up in this thread?

Also, for the recording, what piece or exercise should I play?

What about a piece that demonstrates a situation where you are slowing down when trying to play quieter.


Made a Liszt. Need new Handel's for Soler panel & Alkan foil. Will Faure Stein on the way to pick up Mendels' sohn. Josquin get Wolfgangs Schu with Clara. Gone Chopin, I'll be Bach

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #21 on: September 07, 2025, 04:06:26 PM
I'll just try playing the first movement of moonlight sonata I guess. If I can finish by tonight, then you'll probably see a recording in this thread by 8:00 PM PDT.

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #22 on: September 12, 2025, 02:53:09 AM
Sorry. Was to lazy to post a recording. I don't know, but my teacher says my dynamic range is fine. I think the harder part is just accepting that this is how I'm going to be able to play, even if I'm not satisfied with it yet. She said I should try scales in different dynamics, like piano or mezzopiano, because I'm not very comfortable with playing softly when also playing fast.

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #23 on: September 12, 2025, 12:58:06 PM
She said I should try scales in different dynamics, like piano or mezzopiano, because I'm not very comfortable with playing softly when also playing fast.

Good advice.  Not just p and mp, but also pp and mf.

Offline jonathannyc

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #24 on: September 13, 2025, 05:19:00 PM
I play on a 5.5 foot baby-grand piano, what do you know about this type of instrument? I know that you are supposed to play a little louder during recitals and stuff, but it isn't technically exciting or satisfying to play with a lower dynamic range. I can play fortissimo just fine(I know it is much easier), so is there any technique involved?

Hello Orgarnic,

The action on any piano that is poorly regulated will always be frustrating. For pianos around the 5.5 range, older grey-market Yamaha G1 or G2 pianos will not be able to compete with a new Bosendorfer 170 at approximately the same size. So, it's not only size, but make and condition that are important. I've played concert grands that were nearly unplayable for lack of professional care.

Check the downward stroke of the keys on your piano for smoothness. Some pianos force the pianist to play with a minimum speed and weight just for the action to respond. Also, if you have a chance, find other grand pianos to play for comparison. If you live near a piano store, that might be a place to find out.

Best regards!

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Offline yqxpiano

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #25 on: September 19, 2025, 02:52:38 AM
plus chopin nocturne op 48 no 1 doppio movimento. it would be much easier if forte.
I’m trying for that… I keep missing the middle notes when playing upper voices with pinky. The chord isn’t an even dynamic. :(

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #26 on: September 19, 2025, 03:08:51 AM


Check the downward stroke of the keys on your piano for smoothness. Some pianos force the pianist to play with a minimum speed and weight just for the action to respond. 


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This is exactly my problem. My piano has a minimum weight that must be applied to make sound, which is really annoying.

Offline essence

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #27 on: September 19, 2025, 02:33:10 PM
I’m trying for that… I keep missing the middle notes when playing upper voices with pinky. The chord isn’t an even dynamic. :(

It seems to be very rare that even well known professionals follow the pp indication. .Rubinstein and Hoffman are superb in this nocturne. Both are restrained in the 3rd section.

Offline lelle

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #28 on: September 30, 2025, 12:01:12 PM
I feel there is a difference in control if you try to play softly by trying to prevent yourself from playing too loud, vs when you play softly by actively seeking the exact pressure you need. One is a "restraining", the other is a "doing". Which of the two can you relate the most to?

An exercise to consider.
Place your hand on the keyboard to play whatever chord you wanna practice. Press the keys down very slowly and controlled, without sounding any keys. Keep playing the chord repeatedly and slowly, gradually increasing the pressure from PPP all the way to FF and then back again to PPP. Try to make the increase and decrease in dynamic as controlled as possible, while staying as relaxed and comfortable as possible all the way.

Offline orgarnic

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #29 on: September 30, 2025, 03:44:11 PM
I'm probably part of the restraining camp. I'll try the exercise that you recommended.

Offline keypeg

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #30 on: September 30, 2025, 06:04:28 PM
One is a "restraining", the other is a "doing". Which of the two can you relate the most to?
A few years ago I relearned dynamics and looked at what I was doing.  One of them was holding back or restraining, as you put it. The other was "moosh".  Make the fingers increasingly soft and mooshy, which ofc gives a lack of control and a few notes that won't sound at all.  I learned at that time about speed of descent that you described, and I was gobsmacked.

Offline keypeg

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #31 on: October 05, 2025, 12:34:45 AM
Fwiw, I did this recording recently.  I don't know if I'll ever aim at the etude in its actual tempo.  Presently I'm using it at this tempo to get at technical things, and the dynamics of the super-soft in-between notes is part of it.  As absurd as it may sound, the Faber which I linked to before, including the exaggerated motions, helped me, because of where I happen to be coming from.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hf0haklmb70oppz8gj17r/25.09.30-Op-25-12-Chopin-slow.mp3?rlkey=wk0hyxdygk89l2s1zv3083r01&st=lmf89dq4&dl=0

Offline ranjit

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Re: pianissimo
Reply #32 on: October 05, 2025, 05:08:40 PM
Fwiw, I did this recording recently.  I don't know if I'll ever aim at the etude in its actual tempo.  Presently I'm using it at this tempo to get at technical things, and the dynamics of the super-soft in-between notes is part of it.  As absurd as it may sound, the Faber which I linked to before, including the exaggerated motions, helped me, because of where I happen to be coming from.

https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/hf0haklmb70oppz8gj17r/25.09.30-Op-25-12-Chopin-slow.mp3?rlkey=wk0hyxdygk89l2s1zv3083r01&st=lmf89dq4&dl=0
Nicely done keypeg! I think you should really also attempt the reverse of what you're doing here, and play the piece at tempo while somewhat sacrificing the dynamics. When I picture this piece, there is a certain kind of hand gesture that I can feel that is more of an oscillating, rocking motion, with its 'trough' at the top note (resulting in it being the loudest and also the wrist being maybe slightly lower). My guess is that it would be better to learn this movement at tempo, and then refine the inner dynamics. You could then focus on making that movement and getting the top note to sing and phrase, making the middle voices just as you would like, etc. And in my experience, at the end of it, you can get pretty good results quickly.
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