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Topic: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?  (Read 438 times)

Offline mooshrimp

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Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
on: December 06, 2025, 05:36:18 AM
I just finished Rachmaninoff’s Prelude in B Minor (32/10) and found it incredibly rewarding to learn. I’m trying to find a new piece, preferably something similarly devastating (but would settle for simply melancholic), but similar in difficulty to the prelude (or easier). Can anyone help me gauge difficulty for these?

Anatoly Lyadov - 3 P’yesi Op. 11 No. 1
Georgy Catoire - Rêverie Op. 10 No. 4 (this is so lush and per the name, dreamy)
Charles Griffes - The Lake at Evening Op. 5 No. 1
Charles Griffes - Notturno Op. 6 No.
Viktor Kosenko - Consolation Op. 9 No. 1
Samuel Feinberg - Berceuse Op. 19a

Two I also love but suspect are extremely difficult:
Bortkiewicz - Ballade Op. 42
Charles Griffes - The Pleasure-Dome of Kubla-Khan

Also open to suggestions!
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Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #1 on: December 06, 2025, 02:58:52 PM
Did you ask google - search is AI empowered now.  All I did was ask how difficult one of your pieces is, and it came back with this thorough answer:

Charles Griffes' The Lake at Evening, Op. 5 No. 1, is considered Intermediate to Advanced (around ABRSM Grade 8 level), requiring solid technique for its expressive mood, subtle harmonies, and shifting textures, but it's not extremely virtuosic like later Romantic pieces, focusing more on atmosphere and touch.
Difficulty Breakdown:
Technical: Moderate; needs good control for delicate passages, flowing arpeggios, and dynamic contrasts.
Musical: Requires maturity to capture the impressionistic, tranquil, yet slightly melancholic mood, focusing on tone color and phrasing rather than raw speed.
Syllabus Placement: Often appears on advanced syllabuses like AMEB Grade 8, indicating a high level of proficiency is expected.
In essence, it's a beautiful piece for solid intermediate players looking to explore Impressionism and musical expression, rather than an intimidating technical showpiece.

Offline keypeg

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #2 on: December 06, 2025, 05:27:03 PM
My thinking is that it's not a question of "level of difficulty", but rather level of difficulty for you.  What about examining the pieces, see what is involved in them both technically, and what you need to be able to do to make them come alive musically?

As an example: I had a quick look via YT where the notation is also shown, for some of them.  Quite a few seem to have 3-against-2 and/or vice versa.  If you've not mastered this kind of timing, then you might eliminate those pieces from your choices, or choose a simpler piece for learning that technique before going to such a piece.

Offline essence

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #3 on: December 06, 2025, 06:12:51 PM
I didn;t know any of these pieces, but checked out the Feinberg and Griffes Pleasure Dome.

The Feinberg I would estimate as about grade 8 ABRSM, and the Griffes maybe a level higher.

They both had complexity, but I didn't see any great technical difficulty. They fall well short of the technical difficulties in Scriabin sonatas, or Chopin Ballades, for example.

Offline liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #4 on: December 06, 2025, 06:48:05 PM
Did you ask google - search is AI empowered now.  All I did was ask how difficult one of your pieces is, and it came back with this thorough answer:

Charles Griffes' The Lake at Evening, Op. 5 No. 1, is considered Intermediate to Advanced (around ABRSM Grade 8 level), requiring solid technique for its expressive mood, subtle harmonies, and shifting textures, but it's not extremely virtuosic like later Romantic pieces, focusing more on atmosphere and touch.
Difficulty Breakdown:
Technical: Moderate; needs good control for delicate passages, flowing arpeggios, and dynamic contrasts.
Musical: Requires maturity to capture the impressionistic, tranquil, yet slightly melancholic mood, focusing on tone color and phrasing rather than raw speed.
Syllabus Placement: Often appears on advanced syllabuses like AMEB Grade 8, indicating a high level of proficiency is expected.
In essence, it's a beautiful piece for solid intermediate players looking to explore Impressionism and musical expression, rather than an intimidating technical showpiece.
"AI" is hilariously wrong half the time, and I wouldn't trust it for a moment about the difficulty of obscure piano repertoire (or much of anything, really).

Just as an example, I decided to temporarily ruin my search history and ask Google's predictive text thingy how difficult Czerny's Op. 268 Sonata no. 10 and Op. 380 are, in comparison to Liszt's S. 139 no. 5 "Feux Follets." Here's it's summary of the comparisons.

"Conclusion
If your question is which piece is harder to perfectly execute with the required clarity, speed, and musical effect:
"Feux Follets" is harder. The specific technical hurdle of the rapid, varied, and pianissimo double notes is considered one of the ultimate tests of finger independence and control in the entire repertoire.
If your question is which piece is a greater physical and intellectual undertaking due to its length:
Czerny Op. 268 is a greater undertaking. As a 30-minute sonata, it requires stamina, memory, and a grasp of large-scale musical architecture far beyond the single-movement Liszt étude.
You could say that "Feux Follets" requires a surgical level of precision and speed concentrated in one area, while the Czerny Sonata requires military-grade endurance, speed, and overall command across four major movements."

"The unanimous consensus among pianists is that Liszt's "Feux Follets" (S. 139 no. 5) is significantly more difficult [than Op. 380] and is a higher-level feat of virtuosity."

For reference, here is the final movement alone of the Czerny Sonata:


And the Op. 380:


I'll let everyone come to their own conclusions about which is more difficult, though hopefully we can all agree that the two Czerny pieces (one of which is humanly impossible and the other very close to that) are vastly more difficult than one of Liszt's more challenging Etudes.

The bottom line is that "AI" (which is just predictive text) will give the likeliest answer based on the data that it's stolen, but what that data says is likeliest isn't always the correct answer. Especially for more obscure/niche things, that answer is more often incorrect than not. It also has a tendency to completely hallucinate and make random stuff up.

And this isn't even touching on all of the moral/ethical reasons why "AI" shouldn't be used.
Amateur pianist, beginning composer, creator of the Musical Madness tournament (2024-26).
https://www.youtube.com/@Liszt-and-the-Galops
https://sites.google.com/view/musicalmadness-ps/home

Offline mooshrimp

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #5 on: December 06, 2025, 07:39:09 PM
"AI" is hilariously wrong half the time, and I wouldn't trust it for a moment about the difficulty of obscure piano repertoire (or much of anything, really).

Yes, it has been fairly bad for music questions ime. Especially since difficulty is so subjective. I’ve asked AI to spell some chords for me that were hilariously wrong.

Offline mooshrimp

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #6 on: December 07, 2025, 02:32:45 AM
I didn;t know any of these pieces, but checked out the Feinberg and Griffes Pleasure Dome.

The Feinberg I would estimate as about grade 8 ABRSM, and the Griffes maybe a level higher.

They both had complexity, but I didn't see any great technical difficulty. They fall well short of the technical difficulties in Scriabin sonatas, or Chopin Ballades, for example.

I’m not sure how to interpret ABRSM ratings, the Chopin Ballades and Scriabin Sonatas would also be quite out of reach for me (but I would love to learn them later!). If I plug in my pieces I’ve worked on recently, nothing is above a Henle 7, so that’s about my limit.

Offline dizzyfingers

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #7 on: December 07, 2025, 03:22:39 PM
"AI" is hilariously wrong half the time..

Just as an example, I decided to temporarily ruin my search history and ask Google's predictive text thingy how difficult Czerny's Op. 268 Sonata no. 10 and Op. 380 are, in comparison to Liszt's S. 139 no. 5 "Feux Follets." Here's it's summary of the comparisons.

"Conclusion
If your question is which piece is harder to perfectly execute with the required clarity, speed, and musical effect:
"Feux Follets" is harder. The specific technical hurdle of the rapid, varied, and pianissimo double notes is considered one of the ultimate tests of finger independence and control in the entire repertoire.
If your question is which piece is a greater physical and intellectual undertaking due to its length:
Czerny Op. 268 is a greater undertaking. As a 30-minute sonata, it requires stamina, memory, and a grasp of large-scale musical architecture far beyond the single-movement Liszt étude.
You could say that "Feux Follets" requires a surgical level of precision and speed concentrated in one area, while the Czerny Sonata requires military-grade endurance, speed, and overall command across four major movements."
"The unanimous consensus among pianists is that Liszt's "Feux Follets" (S. 139 no. 5) is significantly more difficult [than Op. 380] and is a higher-level feat of virtuosity."

Sounds like AI is elaborating on the different kinds of "difficult" and you're treating it as a one dimensional  word/concept.

Offline liszt-and-the-galops

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #8 on: December 07, 2025, 06:34:15 PM
Sounds like AI is elaborating on the different kinds of "difficult" and you're treating it as a one dimensional  word/concept.
I notice that you conveniently ignored the part where it said "[t]he unanimous consensus among pianists is that Liszt's "Feux Follets" (S. 139 no. 5) is significantly more difficult [than Op. 380] and is a higher-level feat of virtuosity."

It's saying that Feux Follets is nigh-objectively more difficult than Op. 380, when in reality it's the exact opposite.

It gave a slightly more nuanced response for Op. 268, if your criteria for "more nuanced" is acknowledging that the Sonata is longer. And even then, it didn't get the length right. The only recording of the sonata is about 28 minutes long, but that recording plays significantly below tempo in three of the four movements (the video I linked above is the 4th movement from that recording sped up by 1.5x to match the written tempo). It's actually closer to 25 minutes in length.

Also, surely we can all agree that even the below-tempo Czerny Sonata is far more difficult than the S. 139 version of Feux Follets...


Ratio of written tempo to played tempo:
mvt. 1: 1.25x
mvt. 2: 0.75x
mvt. 3: 1.15x
mvt. 4: 1.5x
Amateur pianist, beginning composer, creator of the Musical Madness tournament (2024-26).
https://www.youtube.com/@Liszt-and-the-Galops
https://sites.google.com/view/musicalmadness-ps/home

Offline lelle

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Re: Help me gauge difficulty on some lesser known pieces?
Reply #9 on: December 15, 2025, 09:58:19 AM
Did you ask google - search is AI empowered now.  All I did was ask how difficult one of your pieces is, and it came back with this thorough answer:

Charles Griffes' The Lake at Evening, Op. 5 No. 1, is considered Intermediate to Advanced (around ABRSM Grade 8 level), requiring solid technique for its expressive mood, subtle harmonies, and shifting textures, but it's not extremely virtuosic like later Romantic pieces, focusing more on atmosphere and touch.
Difficulty Breakdown:
Technical: Moderate; needs good control for delicate passages, flowing arpeggios, and dynamic contrasts.
Musical: Requires maturity to capture the impressionistic, tranquil, yet slightly melancholic mood, focusing on tone color and phrasing rather than raw speed.
Syllabus Placement: Often appears on advanced syllabuses like AMEB Grade 8, indicating a high level of proficiency is expected.
In essence, it's a beautiful piece for solid intermediate players looking to explore Impressionism and musical expression, rather than an intimidating technical showpiece.

AI is good for many things, but knowing the piano repertoire is not one of them IMO. I have gotten laughably stupid and wrong responses from it when I have tried prompting it some repertoire related questions to see how it would fare. Talking about things like Chopin's "Thirds" Etude Op 10 no 2 which is difficult because you play chromatic thirds lol.
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