Richter was gay?

[cziffra]

This guy is reviewing a book about richter on amazon and he casually mentions richter is gay: (well, had a homosexual side, anyway)

His relationship to his wife and, of course, his homosexuality remain undiscussed. That's fine, except there's a lot of footage in the film where you find yourself wondering who took pictures of Richter that way, and why. (The scene of him wrapped in bedsheets running about is particularly interesting and humorous.)

What?  Did i miss something?  How would we know?

[Daevren]

Who cares?

Maybe he prefered pineapples over pears too!

[steinwayguy]

Who cares?

Maybe he prefered pineapples over pears too!

My sentiments exactly.

[cziffra]

Sorry, i didn't mean to imply that there was something wrong with it, or that it would matter to his playing or his musicianship, i simply meant that i was surprised this reviewer so casually mentioned it when i have never heard it before, anywhere else.  And i've been an avid fan of richter's for at least a year. 

I mean, if you can just say somewhere online "this person was (insert religion/sexuality etc)" and everyone believed it without ever checking up on it, then who knows what we know about people that isn't actually true?  One thing that comes to mind is that horowitz supposedly watched a lot of pornography- i've only ever read that online somewhere, do we know that it's true?  Yes, it doesn't change the quality of his performances but i'd rather know the facts about my musical idols than stuff someone just made up.

[Alde]

There are many musicians who are gay.  So what!
I am not.  So what!

[cziffra]

Listen, i really don't mean to criticise homosexuality or offend anyone who is gay.  I don't mean that at all- i agree that it really doesn't make the slightest bit of difference to his actual music making.  I just don't like to know false information about people- some strange part of my personality says that i should actually know if what i'm saying is true.  That's all. 

I would be much the same if this reviewer had said, "and as far as his obsession with chinese ming vases of the 5th dynasty is concerned..." I'd be thinking, What?  That's never been mentioned anywhere before.,  this guy's making it up...and i HATE it when people just make up stuff and tell you as if it's real.

[Stolzing]

The internet doesnt lie 

[willcowskitz]

Of course there's a potential difference in someone's personality/character depending on whether they're gay or not.

Saying "so what" makes absolutely no sense. Just because it is a difference and an interesting detail to add to the picture of some famous person, it doesn't mean it has to be a negative one.

"So what?!" is just a new manifestation of announcing one's belonging to certain commonly accepted school of thought, similar to gay-bashing because basically people don't care if they spread positiveness or negativeness - prejudicament/open-mindedness or intolerance/tolerance - they just want to shout out loud their "faction" so that everyone around recognize them to be worthy of acceptance among the majority and consensous - be it nazis or liberals.

[ralessi]

Yeah just like...bernstein, copland, liberace! awesome musicians!

[apion]

Of course there's a potential difference in someone's personality/character depending on whether they're gay or not.

And what may these "differences" be, precisely?

[Daevren]

I didn't mean to suggest you suggested that there was something wrong with being homosexual.

I would have probably replied in the same fashion had you asked something like "Was Richter a boobs or an ass man?" or "Did he prefer blonde over brunette".

Really, there is already a difference between someones music and someones personalityy but, someones sexual perference is totally unimportant as far as I am concurned.

To me his taste in other arts and philosopical views, in a meta-phyisical way, are.

I normally kind of care if someone is a vegetarian or not, of is someone has a love for nature and what ones political views are. But even in musiscians, I could not really borther to care.

So, did Richter like jazz?

Who did he prefer? Tolstoi or Dostoevsky?



And about differences in personallity. They surely exist in stereotypes. But in practice, I have no idea. There are surely are very different homosexual people. Even if there is a difference in the blunt averages, it would probably be insignificant and unusable/undependeble in practice.

[willcowskitz]

apion:


Basically there are "masculine" and "feminine" people, with all the shades of gray in between, and their sexual preferences are to a degree governed by this aspect. On the other hand there are submissive and dominant people, which is one dimension that affects the person's sexual preferences due to the unique ways they use for achieving confidence and power over their environment. Sex is the most direct manifestation of these characteristics between the different strengths in masculinity and femininity and dominance and submission, in contrast to social games that are based on same dimensions of human character but on higher and more complex  level of consciousness. There is on the other hand a fundamental difference between genders; a man cannot be raped. To put it that harshly is just to underline the fact that the man's activeness makes the act possible - the man usually is the one that goes in whereas a certain level of surrendering is required from the woman, which in itself relates to the power relations between people and how they perceive, or would like to perceive themselves in that setting. Although this is very simplified and there are other, unknown factors involved; if we can break sexual needs down to psychological factors, we can't deny that it would affect people's character.

If you think there is a one precise answer to the question about differences that one's sexual orientation has on their personality, you're the one looking to stereotype. These things are on such a low level of our existence that no, I haven't yet been able to intuitively realize the reason for what pulls one toward another being sexually. We're speculating on the social/environmental and genetic factors, but what it really boils down to is probably psychological, with the social factor being greater in importance. When people are attracted to others, they're looking to complement themselves, and the gender and emotional aspects that they're attracted to, tell something about the person - the fact that we do have emotional/sexual preferences towards certain gender already shows that it makes some fundamental difference in some aspects of that person, or it would definitely be "so what" for all of us.

What one wants from the opposite or same sex, affects their way of thinking, acting and feeling things, and there are actual reasons for why somebody prefers certain sex, even though we don't know them  at their roots they affect the higher level of our consciousness and how we experience things or how our trail of thought builds up (ever heard men being called tube brains?). Knowing someone's sexual preferences can also make a difference in how one perceives them and their art and what elements of femininity or masculinity they're able to spot from the music. To a degree I agree that plainly saying "Richter was gay" is not enough, but it will leave me some ground to speculate on and try to find certain characteristics in his music.

[cziffra]

Knowing someone's sexual preferences can also make a difference in how one perceives them and their art and what elements of femininity or masculinity they're able to spot from the music. To a degree I agree that plainly saying "Richter was gay" is not enough, but it will leave me some ground to speculate on and try to find certain characteristics in his music.

For god's sake, we DON'T know his sexual preferences, that's the whole point of this post.  You can't go looking for characteristics if we don't even know if it's true.
Your post was very interesting, i don't mean to dismiss it totally, but the original purpose of this post is to try and find out whether or not he even is gay- i don't know why everyone is so reluctant to talk about this in pragmatic "he was" or "he wasn't" terms- 
It's really a simple question. 

[Daevren]

I have no idea, am I a "masculine" or "feminine" person. Dominant or submissive. I have absolutely no idea. I do not think you can throw people inside those boxes anyway. Maybe their behavior, but that will be different by alot of people.

Then, men do get raped by females. Females went to jail for this. There is at least one movie about this too. And for about every known case, there are many unknown cases.

Alot of these males are 14 year old children raped by several 16 year old females. This has nothing to do with sex and all to do with power. Rape isn't about sex, ever!

Sexual preference is one big riddle.

Also, there are more than two stereotypes for homosexual males and females.

Some people feel opposites attract, some feel opposite and seek for similarities in their partner.

Some people look for someone like their opposing-sex parent, some don't.

Look at the statistical research on homosexual identical twins. They did research on these twins living together, living apart, they looked at adopted geneticallly unrelated siblings. This shows how complex the riddle is.

If you know something about evolution you will also know how important sexual selection is and why it is so refined. Men battle men, woman battle woman and men battle woman over genes. Animals have all kinds of strange tactics that have to do with sexual selection.

A persons personallity isn't created by someones sexual preference. It is part of it.

What do you mean when you say ' Sex is the most direct manifestation of these characteristics'. You mean the way people prefer to have sex? Does that have something to do with their sexual preference?

" the man usually is the one that goes in whereas a certain level of surrendering is required from the woman"

You mean penetration? You feel like a woman has to surrender herself to have sexual interaction with a male? The male has the active role and the female has the passive role?

I never had sex, and I don't plan ever to have any on the short term so I cannot talk about my own experience. But I find these views kind of strange.

I would be really troubled if the way my music sounds is connected with my sexual preference.

[willcowskitz]

For god's sake, we DON'T know his sexual preferences, that's the whole point of this post.

I wasn't even speaking of Richter's sexual orientation, but generally. Just because I said I could speculate on how it adds up to his personality doesn't mean I took this rumour as a truth, he was just an object to the discussion and it's subject.

i don't know why everyone is so reluctant to talk about this in pragmatic "he was" or "he wasn't" terms-  It's really a simple question. 

My feelings exactly. Unfortunately, I have no knowledge to add to the original subject.

I have no idea, am I a "masculine" or "feminine" person. Dominant or submissive. I have absolutely no idea. I do not think you can throw people inside those boxes anyway.

I knew someone would get stuck in these terms, which is why I added "all the shades of gray."  I do not believe in boxes, only relations between certain extreme aspects that create the "gray."

Then, men do get raped by females. Females went to jail for this. There is at least one movie about this too. And for about every known case, there are many unknown cases.

How is this possible? The man has to have an erection for the intercourse to work. If you're talking about sexually abusing children, then we're talking about a whole another topic.

Also, people who look for "equivalents" of their opposite sex parent, are probably doing this because of genetic heritage of preferred appearance. Quite logical that if your father got attracted to your mother and there's bits of your father in you, you might turn out attracted to same characteristics in opposite sex as your father did.

A persons personallity isn't created by someones sexual preference. It is part of it.

This is exactly what I'm implying, and one reason for why there is no "precise answer" to how one's sexual preferances affect their personality. I definitely do not care about stereotypes.

What do you mean when you say ' Sex is the most direct manifestation of these characteristics'. You mean the way people prefer to have sex? Does that have something to do with their sexual preference?

I mean that it affects, and allows people to experience, these relations between dominant and submissive and masculine and feminine sides in them at the lowest level of impulses - its the most instinctive and "sincere" way of self-realizing of these aspects in oneself.

" the man usually is the one that goes in whereas a certain level of surrendering is required from the woman"

You mean penetration? You feel like a woman has to surrender herself to have sexual interaction with a male? The male has the active role and the female has the passive role?

Yes, penetration. It requires a lot more sacrifice from the woman, a lot more trust involved, being the one that receives. Passiveness and activeness of actual intercourse have got nothing to do with this, and the last sentence of yours is a false assumption.

I would be really troubled if the way my music sounds is connected with my sexual preference.

I doubt they stand out that strong. Of course there are analytic minds that can take a Fantasie of Chopin and find symbols of George Sand and Chopin himself in them, as well as the elements of femininity and masculinity. For example, which element do you think Beethoven mostly had in his music as the dominating one?

[Daevren]

"How is this possible? The man has to have an erection for the intercourse to work. If you're talking about sexually abusing children, then we're talking about a whole another topic."

The fact that males get aroused and get an erection does not mean they are willing to have sex. This was actually an argument put up in defence of the woman. They had a specialist explaining this. I think they female was found guilty. I think the male was handcuffed.

Rape and sexual abuse are kind of similar. And I was talking about teenagers. Of course  several females will dominate a 2 or 3 year younger male. Don't ask me if this involves penetration please. I luckily do not know.

Of course their has to be trust for a female to let a male enter her. But if you chance it around, the same goes for a male. I could never imagine having sex with a female I do not trust. And with trust I mean all kinds of trusts.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that a female will get much easier hurt. I have no idea if a female can take initiative when it comes to penetration. I guess that is possible.

"Of course there are analytic minds that can take a Fantasie of Chopin and find symbols of George Sand and Chopin himself in them,"

But is it in the music, or in the minds?

The day I start hearing Chopin and Sand having sex when I listen to Chopin is the day I stop enjoying to listen to Chopin. The reason I fel in love with (instrumental) music is the total abstractness.

I am not saying love or sex or any other feeling cannot inspire music. But are they inside? I say nay. I do not think Richer(for example) being more feminine because he is gay(or the other way around) will result in more fragile music.

Actually Richters music is not fragile at all. Its pretty dominant overall, but Richter has the musical intelligence to slow down on the softer passages. He makes those fragile. Unlike Cziffra for example. But not so far as Zimerman.

So Zimerman is more gay than Richter and Cziffra was truly straight? This isn't going anywhere.

[willcowskitz]

Maybe it has to do with the fact that a female will get much easier hurt. I have no idea if a female can take initiative when it comes to penetration. I guess that is possible.

That's the most obvious reason, and psychologically there's more to having another human enter inside your body.

I am not saying love or sex or any other feeling cannot inspire music. But are they inside? I say nay. I do not think Richer(for example) being more feminine because he is gay(or the other way around) will result in more fragile music.

Well, this is the most typical stereotype of gay men - them always being feminine.

But is it in the music, or in the minds?

Nobody knows for sure whether an overly elaborate analysis of certain piece of music is correct, all it has to back itself up is the system of inner rules and logic it can provide. For me, analyzing is not all about understanding possible roots of things but rather a way to conceptualize abstract things into more easily processable "substances" which I can then apply to a spectrum of other, seemingly different matters. Analysises are always interesting but shouldn't be taken as prescriptive sets of laws, but rather descriptive ones.

[Daevren]

I hate all those analogies. Music is abstract.

There are no flowers, birds, butterflies in music. Also, no wind or teardrops, no devils or angels, no love or sex.

Accept it or move onto literature or painting

*signs*

[willcowskitz]

There are no flowers, birds, butterflies in music. Also, no wind or teardrops, no devils or angels, no love or sex.

Pfff, of course there are.  How else could I enjoy the view so much. 

[Sketchee]

Well, this is the most typical stereotype of gay men - them always being feminine.

True.  Homosexual men are not all feminine. Sexual orientation isn't the same as gender role, sexual identity, etc.  While a effeminate male may be gay, for example, not all gay men are effeminite. (Just as a chicken may be a bird, but most birds aren't chickens.)  Those who are most "obviously" gay can't really be assumed to be typical of the larger group...  Also a masculine male--masculine in the sense of being "on par" with your average straight male--may not be attracted to a particularly "feminine" man.  There's probably a similar amount of variety of individual personalities among homosexuals as there is with heterosexuals.

What any of this has to do with Richter or piano, I have no idea. 

[ychang]

Yes. he is according to some witness' remark from the group in
  https://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/sviatoslavrichter
If you are interested, search the messages and you will find the account.

As for whether your perception of Richter and his music get changed or not, you have to decide for yourself.  If it gets changed, fine, for better or for worse, do some searching if you are interested.

If it's not changed, fine, it's just another piece of information for a pianist.

--Yihung).

[cziffra]

THat ws the most useful reply so far, thankyou.  However I read every post in that list and it was never mentioned. 

[shadow]

Yes, Richter was gay, and so was Horowitz by the way.

[gkatele]

Vladimir Horowitz once observed that there were three kinds of pianists - Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists and bad pianists.

Someone else observed that he was two of the three.....


George

[cziffra]

Yes, Richter was gay, and so was Horowitz by the way.

Aha- a concrete statement. 
Do you have concrete evidence?  I'd like to get to the bottom of this. 

[rafant]

Certainly one can keep enjoying only the artistic results of a great pianist, without considering his/her sexual preferences at all, but being old-fashioned as I am, to know that things about Richter and Horowitz is disappointing for me. Sorry. We, human beings, are made of mud. Of course these attitude is valid exclusively for myself and don't imply any judgement on anybody else.

Discretion is always advisable. For example, two years ago I started to read the Tchaikovsky's biography by Holden; I haven't reached the half of the work yet, since the writer abounds so much in the Tchaikovsky's more private details that it is annoying to continue reading. Tchaikovsky was gay, that's enough knowing of, but to scrutinize at the level as Holden did, it's unnecessary and it's closer to a piece of gossip. Being faithful to the historical truth shouldn't be against being a considered person, even toward the dead ones.

Anyway it's a tribute to the amplitude of this forum we can raise such topics and I'm glad for that.  Thank you cziffra.

[thracozaag]

Aha- a concrete statement. 
Do you have concrete evidence?  I'd like to get to the bottom of this. 

  Yes, they both were.  As was Bolet.

koji (STSD)

[thomj]

Vladimir Horowitz once observed that there were three kinds of pianists - Jewish pianists, homosexual pianists and bad pianists.

Someone else observed that he was two of the three.....


George

hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahaa...

[cziffra]

Yes, they both were.  As was Bolet.

Yes, Richter was gay, and so was Horowitz by the way.

I appreciate the fact that you guys seem to know what you are talking about.  I hope that you will eventually be the ones to settle this. 
However, i simply can't understand why you have made these posts like this. I'm struggling not to be rude.  The origin of this thread came about because someone online made a blanket comment that richter was gay, and i wanted to know how he came to this conclusion.  After a long and poignant digression about the nature of sexuality, we've come back to square one with, not one, but TWO blanket comments telling me that richter is gay.  I'm no closer to understanding how any of you know this. 

HOW do we know richter was gay?

Or for that matter, horowitz and bolet?  Especially given that two of the three were to my knowledge married.

[shadow]

Well, how I know Horowitz was gay was coz my teacher studied with Regina Horowitz. (his sister) And that is what he told me. Yes, he was married.

[Dazzer]

being married doesn't stop someone from being homosexual. He could have been bi, or it could have been a coverup, or it was the social expectation that he get married.

[march05]

cziffra,

How about this for something concrete?

https://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/1999/01/05feature.html

Now maybe that explains his depressions and that "I don't like myself" ending in the dvd...

(although what the writer said about how his sexuality affects his interpretations of Tchaikovsky etc is just plain ridiculous, i think...)

[Nightscape]

That is interesting.

But what is also interesting, is that if you take Richter's name and translate it into numbers and add them together, you get 81.  Then add that to the word "gay".  You'll get 114.  Then find the lowest common denominators of this number.  They are 2, 3, and 19 .  And these letters, form BCS.  Amazing!

[Dazzer]

you think wAYYY too much into this.

[cziffra]

cziffra,

How about this for something concrete?

https://www.salon.com/ent/music/feature/1999/01/05feature.html

Now maybe that explains his depressions and that "I don't like myself" ending in the dvd...

(although what the writer said about how his sexuality affects his interpretations of Tchaikovsky etc is just plain ridiculous, i think...)

THANKYOU!

You have solved all of my problems.  You are wonderful and should keep posting.

[thalbergmad]

Aha- a concrete statement. 
Do you have concrete evidence?  I'd like to get to the bottom of this. 

I'd like to get to the bottom of this. Was that an unintended pun.

[RHaxby]

No, definately not.
Quite possibly an innuendo, though.
And if you have a dirty mind, that WAS a pun.