Setting goals

[terminal]

I have had the same piano teacher for a couple of years, and I am currently working on the Bach inventions. But I feel there is something missing from my lessons, I am used to setting goals and mapping a path on how to get there. In discussions with another piano teacher I have found out that I have been missing out on a lot of the basic structure needed to succeed. I am not getting much exposure to scales, hannon or just basic music theory which surprised this piano teacher I was talking to.

My question is what should I be setting for goals for 1 year / 2 year / 5 years and what should I integrate into my time to get there. Typically I practice for two hours / night, I spend most of my time working on the "next" piece. How should I be scheduling my time to avoid such an insulary approach, should I be doing scales and hannon (I know that is a bad word in this forum). Or are there other exercises I should be working on.

[thierry13]

If you practice 2 hours a Night, the minimum after one year is know all 24 scales and arpegios and the chromatic scale, and be able to them at a good speed, at least in 16th notes at metronome beat to 100. Do scales at each beginning of practice, do the 24 scales + arpegios and the chromatic one. If you find a scale harder than another, do it unless it is at least as good as the others you find easier. After two year, try to aim metronome speed 140. And after 5 years... well get them the faster your metronome can get  . That is if you do them everyday at EACH practice beginning. I do not, I rarely do scales, it makes allmost one year I play and I do all the scales perfectly at metronome 120, and I can go a lot faster with some scales, but not with all. And for the chromatic scale I can allmost go at 200 and it's still clear and nice, and I do it with only fingers 1-3. I don't practice it particularly.

For the pieces :

I don't know your level right now, but try a Chopin etude after 2 years, and after five years, a Liszt one or a modern etudes, wich in general are the hardest.

[Nana_Ama]

I've been having the same problem../conflict.  I just feel that although I am making progress it's not as rapid as before.  (I have had two teachers so far.)  My first teacher got me really far-- I was able to play Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring after only two months of lessons.  I was under her tutelage for six months.  My next teacher wasn't as thorough... She would assign me pieces, I would play them but I wouldn't learn anything that was associated with the piece (why it was written...etc).  Also, unlike my first teacher she didn't have a set plan or a syllabus... It just makes me wonder what kind of direction I am really going in.  I don't even see much progress...  

I don't think I have really answered your question, but I would suggest getting a different teacher.  Or maybe (if you are close to your teacher) just ask what book would be good as supplementary material.  That way you can work on it on your own rather than during lesson time.  Also set up a goal for yourself.  Listen to music, see what you like and figure out what you want to play.  Mention it to your teacher and he/she will help you reach that goal.  I hope this helps...

[Nana_Ama]

I don't know your level right now, but try a Chopin etude after 2 years...

An etude?  Which one?

[mikeyg]

The easiest etude by Chopin, in my opinion, is Op. 10 No. 6, or, for those of us with "large" hands, perhaps Op. 10 No. 9.  The three Etudes aren't that ridiculous either, with the easiest probably being the 1st.

[terminal]

Thanks, I have been thinking about getting another teacher for some time and this has cemented my decision on this.

I will set my goals for the music I should be playing in the next year or two, I think this will help in selecting a piano teacher and making clear what my goals are and working with them.

I have what I belive to be a good selection of music of Bach from Alfred by Palmer and Schneider, the WTC, the Inventions, the Art of Fugue and both the Schirmers books of Beethoven sonatas. There are a number of pieces that I think I should be able to do.

As for my current level, I finished Invention #1, #2 was pretty hard so I put that on the burner (the note on note counterpoint was a bit of a grind), but I picked up #4 in about a week.

(suggestions?)

I have conflicting information on scales, in many places I read that I should work from Hannon, but I believe there are alternates.

(suggestions?)

[Nana_Ama]

Thanks, I have been thinking about getting another teacher for some time and this has cemented my decision on this.

I will set my goals for the music I should be playing in the next year or two, I think this will help in selecting a piano teacher and making clear what my goals are and working with them.

I have what I belive to be a good selection of music of Bach from Alfred by Palmer and Schneider, the WTC, the Inventions, the Art of Fugue and both the Schirmers books of Beethoven sonatas. There are a number of pieces that I think I should be able to do.

As for my current level, I finished Invention #1, #2 was pretty hard so I put that on the burner (the note on note counterpoint was a bit of a grind), but I picked up #4 in about a week.

(suggestions?)

I have conflicting information on scales, in many places I read that I should work from Hannon, but I believe there are alternates.

(suggestions?)

It seems like we're in the same boat.  I am going to get a new teacher too, starting this May or September (I am not sure yet). 
I suggest you just ask your new teacher what you should work on in reference to scales... and things like that.  Tell your new teacher about your background:  how long you have been playing, what kind of music you like, and specific goals.  (For me, I am hoping to minor in piano but not necesserialy (sp??) at a conservatory.)

I'm in school now, more later.

[bernhard]

I have had the same piano teacher for a couple of years, and I am currently working on the Bach inventions. But I feel there is something missing from my lessons, I am used to setting goals and mapping a path on how to get there. In discussions with another piano teacher I have found out that I have been missing out on a lot of the basic structure needed to succeed. I am not getting much exposure to scales, hannon or just basic music theory which surprised this piano teacher I was talking to.

My question is what should I be setting for goals for 1 year / 2 year / 5 years and what should I integrate into my time to get there. Typically I practice for two hours / night, I spend most of my time working on the "next" piece. How should I be scheduling my time to avoid such an insulary approach, should I be doing scales and hannon (I know that is a bad word in this forum). Or are there other exercises I should be working on.

Yes, setting goals and mapping a path is essential.

However I would like to point out that not every map will take you to the top of the mountain, and some maps will go through very bad places.

 I am intrigued by this sentence:

“I have found out that I have been missing out on a lot of the basic structure needed to succeed.”

I would be very interested is what exactly is this “basic structure needed to succeed”.

Then you mention scales and Hanon. Scales are extremely important, but not for the reason most people assume them to be. Have a look here where there is a detailed discussion of this issue:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2429.msg21061.html#msg21061
(Technical studies x pieces – genesis of Studies and how Czerny derived his exercises from Beethoven sonatas -  why scales are useless and at the same time essential – Chopin x Kalkbrenner story – Unorthodox fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

Hanon should be avoided like the plague (not that everyone agrees with me ). To get the gist of this polemic subject, have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4082.msg37362.html#msg37362
(one cannot learn technique in a vacuum. At the same time one cannot simply play pieces – comparison with tennis)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4182.msg38775.html#msg38775
(Hanon: pros and cons)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5352.msg50998.html#msg50998
(Exercises x repertory – why technique cannot be isolated from music)

I believe that any pianist’s goal should be the acquisition of repertory. Once you decide on your repertory, the repertory will guide you towards whatever is it that you may need to master it. Have a look here for some further discussion on this subject:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2526.msg21829.html#msg21829
(how to organise piano practise in short/medium/long term – Principle of memory retention – Principle of 15 minute sessions – stopping when you achieve your goals. Teachers should teach how to learn)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4734.msg44770.html#msg44770
(how to acquire virtuoso technique – aiming at 100 pieces in five years)

Finally, from the very little information you supplied, I already like your teacher: s/he is not giving you Hanon, and s/he is giving you Bach 2-voice inventions. Wonderful!

This,of course, is just the tip of the iceberg.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.