My Irmler

[iumonito]

I just want to share how happy I am with my piano.  I just finished playing some Grieg and the spectrum of sounds you can get out of that piano is just fantastic.

[keith d kerman]

That is great to hear. 

[iumonito]

A little update on the Irmler.  I have been playing Bach and Debussy the last couple of days and you would not think it is the same piano. 

In Bach it makes it very easy to bring out anything you want (either through articulation or dynamics), the action being so responsive I like to describe it as telepathic.

In Debussy, coloring is really fun.  You can play really really softly, it whispers really well.  Letting things float is easy, as the sustain is basically eternal.  This in turn makes it easy to have several layers of color without having them get blurred.

My technician (my hero, really) adjusted the pedal so it is very easy to do half pedaling and to control the dampers just as much as the hammers.

I had never heard of Irmler before, but I have to tell you, this Polish piano (designed by Cristian Bluthner) piano owes nothing to the better-known brands that cost twice as much (that is, my most bemoaned Steinway and Bosendorfer, yikes).  I wouldn't take them for the same price.  Really.

Try me and offer me an Steinway C for a trade.  I am pretty sure that unless the Steinway is very well preped, I wouldn't take it (assuming, of course they remain the same price, otherwise I will take the Steinway, sell it, and buy another Irmler and a Mason, and maybe and apartment in Bonaire  ). 

I would not even consider the Bose.

[jon-nyc]

Congratulations!   Sounds like you found the piano that speaks to you.

Why don't you post a picture?  Some of us have never seen an Imler.

Cheers!
Jon

[jon-nyc]

I had never heard of Irmler before, but I have to tell you, this Polish piano ...

Just looked this brand up in Larry Fine's The Piano Book.  He says they're built in China...

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

I have a 1920's Irmler upright in for repair, in that time they were made in Germany.

[jon-nyc]

Just checked again - Larry Fine says the 5'3" and the 7' models are built in China, the 5'11" model is built in Poland and the Czeck republic. 

[keith d kerman]

It has been a while since any Irmlers coming to the States were made in China.  There was a period when there were Irmlers ( made in China) and Irmler Europe ( made in Poland) but now all Irmlers are made in Poland, some say Irmler Europe, some just Irmler, and the pianos brought in from China by Bluthner are called Breitmanns.  Iumonito's piano is a 7'2" Irmler made in Poland with extensive customization by PianoCraft.  It is a lovely instrument.

[Axtremus]

iumonito,

Great to hear that your piano is serving you so well!

It has been a while since any Irmlers coming to the States were made in China.  There was a period when there were Irmlers ( made in China) and Irmler Europe ( made in Poland) but now all Irmlers are made in Poland, some say Irmler Europe, some just Irmler, and the pianos brought in from China by Bluthner are called Breitmanns.  Iumonito's piano is a 7'2" Irmler made in Poland with extensive customization by PianoCraft.  It is a lovely instrument.

Thanks for setting the record straight. Just wonder if you would also comment of the "Haessler" brand as well. It seems to be also be one of Blüthner's brand names. Thanks.

[iumonito]

It has been a while since any Irmlers coming to the States were made in China.  There was a period when there were Irmlers ( made in China) and Irmler Europe ( made in Poland) but now all Irmlers are made in Poland, some say Irmler Europe, some just Irmler, and the pianos brought in from China by Bluthner are called Breitmanns.  Iumonito's piano is a 7'2" Irmler made in Poland with extensive customization by PianoCraft.  It is a lovely instrument.

Keith, thanks for the clarification.  Actually now you make me wonder how much of my piano's success is Christian Bluthner's design and the craftmanship of our pals in Poland and how much of it is Pianocraft's magic.  Now that I think of it, I have never played a non-Pianocraft Irmler.  The instrument you put on my living room is really superb.  I played Lecuona and Nazareth today, it sounds like a party in there.

You guys have done great by me.  Really, many thanks.

Ax, I'll e-mail you a few pics, as I don't know how to post them.

[CJ Quinn]

Iumonito's piano is a 7'2" Irmler made in Poland with extensive customization by PianoCraft. 

Pinstriping and Flip-Flop paint?   "No Fear" Graphics?

 

[jon-nyc]

Pinstriping and Flip-Flop paint?   "No Fear" Graphics?

 

No, Chris, its the ape-hanger handlebars and the sidecar.

[CJ Quinn]

No, Chris, its the ape-hanger handlebars and the sidecar.

Oy, not the ape-hangers...

(remind me to talk motorcycles with you next I see you)


Back to topic, it's usually difficult to get Keith to talk about the custom prep they do on pianos, so we might not get the details without going to visit him in person.

[iumonito]

Brahms' Op. 10 balades and Schumann's Album for the Young were on the menu today.  I think I have mentioned before that Brahms is what this piano does best.  The rich, chocolate-like sound suits the music particularly well.

With this instrument you can make a lot of sound with very little effort and yet can play it very softly still getting to the bottom of the keys.  Consequentially, I think, this piano is actually quite therapeutic for my technique.  The quality of the sound and the eveness of the action encourages a very fluid, euthonic arm sensation.  It just doesn't feel like playing tense.

And talking about hot-rod pianos, when I get some money lying around (fat chance!), I think I am going to ask Keith about the wisdom of adding a side post to increase the tension on the left side of the rim.  Anyone ever done that to their piano?

Cheers,
Hector

[chickering9]

And talking about hot-rod pianos, when I get some money lying around (fat chance!), I think I am going to ask Keith about the wisdom of adding a side post to increase the tension on the left side of the rim.  Anyone ever done that to their piano?

You stumped me on that one.  I've never heard of such.  Please describe where that post goes and what it's supposed to accomplish. 

[CJ Quinn]

You stumped me on that one.  I've never heard of such.  Please describe where that post goes and what it's supposed to accomplish. 

I've seen Keith make reference to reinforcing pianos.  I think he may do it on his Maestoso.  I've also seen him reference their own version of a tension-resonator.  You might have to chat with Keith directly to get the details. 

BTW Rick, I had a long talk with him on the phone about three weeks ago and it was great fun and very very educational.

[chickering9]

I've been happy to see Keith around these parts so maybe he'll pop in here and tell us a little about what can be done.  I would think much of that sort of reinforcing would serve to keep the piano in the shape in which it was delivered, moreso than alter any of the immediate sound characteristics.  But giving it that kind of long-term preparation speaks to his intent.  He could just just as well sell them on the basis of the sound and touch today knowing by the time the need became apparent, he'd have left this mortal coil.  Perhaps now that I have him prematurely dead and buried he'll comment.

When I get out that direction, his shop is right up there on my list right behind Smithsonian as a place to visit.  I think he genuinely loves what he does and I think I'd learn a lot.  And I certainly would love to play one of his Steingraebers.  If I could get from the Smithsonian to his shop quickly enough, I might offer to trade him a big blue oval irresdescent diamond for one of those Steingraebers.  

[iumonito]

Thanks CJ, the reference to the Mason resonator is the direction I am getting at.  Just for clarification, this modification has not been made or proposed for my Irmler, but you can see the principle, for example, in the cut-off pictures of Overs pianos.

Here is the link.  https://overspianos.com.au/ctoff.html

Fandrich does something similar.  Check this one out as well (described as tensioners, forget about the typo on "principle").  https://www.fandrich.com/tech.php

The rim in the Irmler is pretty strong to begin with, but that's the whole point of hod-roding the pianos: you can make them so very much better than how they come out the box. 

I don't know whether there are cons to this particular tinkering, hence my point that I would ask Keith first about its wisdom.  There is something a little suspicious (here, the suspect is my faulty thinking) about tweaking an instrument I so much like as it is!

[chickering9]

To install that sort of cut-off bar would require complete disassembly of the piano as in destringing, removing the plate and the soundboard to get to the space between the soundboard and rim-braces.  Surely you're not contemplating something so drastic on a piano you already like?

[iumonito]

 

If, at first, an idea is not absurd, there is no hope for it. 

In seriousness, you are totally right: I am unlikely to engage in the project until rebuilding the Irmler is in order (hopefully a project for my son in 50 years when the piano is passing to my grandchildren). 

Chickering, maybe you will incorporate this technique in your next rebuilt, though?

[chickering9]

Chickering, maybe you will incorporate this technique in your next rebuilt, though?

If I ever venture as far as a whole rebuild including soundboard, I'd certainly consider it, along with a "fish" to reduce area and add stiffness to the treble area as well.  I've seen such cutoffs on several websites and I certainly appreciate the sound derived from this kind of thinking as exemplified by the results of Ron Over's work.  I contemplated buying a hulk of a concert grand recently with the idea of using it as a learning ground, but decided it's going to have to wait until I have a suitable shop area.  But given the space, I'd love to tackle such a challenge.

[barry]

I bought my Irmler in December 2003 from the Bluthner showroom in London.
My parents bought a a Bluthner upright (striaght strung) for me when I was 6 years old and when I retired in 2002 I started piano lessons again. I promised myself if I could reach the standard I had when I was eleven years then I would treat myself to a new piano. Well I did.
My Irmler is an F164 Professional medium grand.
I visited the Buthner showroom on Davies Streen, London and explained what I wanted and also my budget. They had 3 grands upstairs and  about 6 uprights (there were at least 30 Bluthner grands downstairs).
Two of the Irmler grands were Studio models and the one Professional model. I fell in love with it. The base was full and the tone appreared even throughout the range.
(There were no extra Aliquots for the upper range which I was pleased to see - I do not like the Yamahas or Kiawas beccause of the stridency(at least to my ears)  at the top end.
According to the showroom The studio models are made in China and the professional models are made in Poland. Both ranges are then sent to Germany for final adjustment   My piano is black gloss and the is also on the inside of the casing instead of the normal wood veneer.
As luck would have it there showroom was new and they could not deliver the pianoi until April 2004  which suited me fine from a decorating point of view and laso from the financial side.
The list price was £13,500 including VAT and I got it for £8500.  It was just before Christmas and the manager was just back from a good lunch!
My playing has vastly improved over the last year. (I have a new teacher who teaches at the Royal College of Music on Saturdays).
I do not play Brahms but the Kabalevsky sonatinas, Chopin Walzes , Scumann Arabesque and my Debussy pieces all  sound wonderful. The piano responds to my touch and YES the pedalling is VERY responsive.
All the best to everyone from Yorkshire, England
Barry

[iumonito]

Barry, that is so cool!  Oops, sorry:  Brill, mate!

Make sure you get your technician to voice the hammers a couple of times the first year.  I have gotten truly outstanding result from my technician voicing the piano when tuned.  It sounds like nothing else.

As a curiosity, a friend of mine recently commented to me that he liked my Irmler better than the Bluthners he had played because it had a wider pallette of tones.  Bluthners with no modifications tend to be the kind of piano that punishes those who seek to force the sound out of the instrument.  My Irmler, though, can scream when you want it too.  How can you play Prokofiev, Scriabin or even Scott Joplin without that?  Very satisfying, indeed.

It sounds as if you got a good deal in pricing.  Well done!  You should also post in a string called best grand for under $15,000 (although not entirely true, as yours is about $16,000, but so vastly superior to the other instruments discussed there!!!!)

[keith d kerman]

Sorry I haven't responded to this thread in a while.  I'll have to check in more often. 
All of the customization we do has an immediate impact.  The purpose of our reinforcement of the back structure or belly rail, or adding a tension resonator, whether a Maestoso or a Steinway, is to quiet the structure.   It keeps that part of the structure from vibrating, and robbing energy from the soundboard.  An added benefit is the long term stability and tuning stability of the piano, but mainly it just strengthens the tone in the related section. 

[chickering9]

... or adding a tension resonator, whether a Maestoso or a Steinway, is to quiet the structure.   It keeps that part of the structure from vibrating, and robbing energy from the soundboard.  An added benefit is the long term stability and tuning stability of the piano, but mainly it just strengthens the tone in the related section. 

I saw a comment elsewhere some time ago that though the M&H tension resonator patent has expired, no builder has adopted it, and while technically still true since you're doing that after market, I think it's fascinating that you are doing that.  Your reason seems like a good one to me.  What I'm curious about is the mechanics of how you install one after the fact.  I'd be interested in hearing what is physically required.  Also, which sections benefits from reinforcing the belly rail and which from the tension resonator? 

[iumonito]

Today I got to play Pictures at an Exhibition on my Irmler for the first time.  So many colors available!  I was very impressed with the clarity it allows for voicing chords, and at the same time the warmth of the sound, which feels like a fleece blanket or just baked bread.

In Gnomus the always reliable action let me make the little runs and trills crunchy.  In Tuilleries nimble.  The infinite shades of pianissimo available for Il Vecchio Castello make for a very musty sound, yet at the same time allowing gusts of light whenever desired.  I am very pleased I finally have an instrument where I can get the type of sonority that I recall from the orchestral version of Moussorgsky's song cycle "Without Sun."

The trills in the ballet of the chickens just hatched was remarkably easy to play, and the repeated notes in Limoges were not the workout I remember from my younger days when I played this stuff in so many sorry Steinways.  Same goes for the tremolos in Catacombae and Baba-Yaga.

Catacombae in particular left me perplexed, as I had never heard so much distance between the left over of the loud chords, and the piercing pianissimo ring of the soft ones.  A similar effect is available at the bells section in the great gate of Kiev.  Bringing out the promenade them out of the thicket of bells finally does not require playing everything other than the melody pianissimo, because the action permits bringing it out simply by using a different touch, which the piano translates into a very distinct color that does not get at all lost in the rest of the texture.

The last page, I fear people in Kiev could hear it.  So much sound! Ahhh, and the bass at the end!!!  Those E-flats are worth every penny and then some (especially in light of the fact that they are not that many;)).

I feel inspired.  I think I am going to stay with this piece for a while and put it in shape.

[iumonito]

Played Schubert impromptus today.  The piano responded well, although I have to say (Jon, are you there) it is no Bose.  The Irmler suits my Schubert better, though, because every now and then (for example, middle section of Op. 90 # 4) I want a harsher sound that is not available in the Bose, but it would be silly to deny that a Bose for Schubert is something special.  I got the Irmler to murmur very nicely, though, particularly in Op. 90 # 3 and the middle section of Op. 142 # 2.

[eins]

iumonito,
I've been lurking for a while and keep reading your praises and accolades (hmm, sounds like chocolade, the way we Europeans pronounce it), anyway, you are so full of new stories and new sensations coming from your irmler that I just have to say this here and now: I think the biggest part of that is you. It is you who is bringing to life all this color and flavor, this vibration and heat, screaming and humming. Your Irmler is your willing tool, but you are its master. Admit it 

[iumonito]

Flattering, but likely not true.  I have being playing pianos since I have memory, I have played them in three continents, I have played them old, and new, expensive and cheap, I have played them in living rooms, practice rooms, bars, churches, concert halls, studios, recording studios and even in a hotel foyer.

I am happy because this piano,  a first for me, is truly responsive.  it gives me the sound I think, and that is a really cool thing.

I recommend it without hesitation.  I post this little journal in part because the brand is not well known, in part because I am hoping to hear from fellow Irmler owners, and in part because I wished, when I was choosing the piano, that I could know from others how they age, etc.

I assume the subject will die away eventually.

[iumonito]

Today I got to play some Ravel, Schumann and Liszt.  I am glad to report that the piano doesn't make me sound better than I am all the time (just most of the time  ).  Schumann's Fantasia gave me great variety of sound, snail pace as I play it, but in the second sonata there was nothing that could help me.  There is a lot of practice required between now and that work sounding ok.

A recent post in another string prompted Gnomenreigen.  Let me explain: My Irmler has spring-assisted wippens (spell?) and I can report that even with the humidity going up the repetition is great.  (BTW, that is certainly an example of the piano making me sound better than I am, as repeated notes have always being a headache for me). 

After Gnomenreigen, just for kicks I gave Alborada del Gracioso a run and the repeating is incredible (unlike my playing, which is very credible and barely sufferable).  Alborada is one of the most demanding pieces on a piano (requiring great repeat, a light and even action that allows for the double glissandi and lots of color everywhere) and the Irmler was up to the task.  I think I have mentioned before that I had never been able to hear those repeated notes until I got to play this on the Irmler.

[eins]

I'm slowly loosing respect for your skills. I think it is all just the piano.

Just kidding 

[Axtremus]

iumonito,

Time to post your recordings already!

[iumonito]

Glad to, glad to, but I need help with the technical side.  I guess I need some type of digital recording device.

Any suggestions?

[Axtremus]

Thanks, iumonito. I don't want to start a long post on piano recording right now... but I'll come back and share my poor man's solution to piano recording in a day or two.

CJQ can help too.

[CJ Quinn]

Any suggestions?

Start cheap and simple.  GEt a cheap radio shack microphone., plug it into your computer.  Download Audacity.  Record.  Done.

https://audacity.sourceforge.net/

Audacity is freeware and works great.  IT becomes the "recorder" to your computer's micrphone input.  Simple stuff.

Play around with this method for a while before you decide to go fancier.

[c18cont]

Irmler built worldwide...

John Cont

[iumonito]

Cool.  I'll get the hardware this weekend.  Whoever responds first with a piece that is not too hard will get their request recorded in a couple of weeks.  I don't promise it will be pretty!!!!

CJ, I will need help posting it!

[CJ Quinn]

CJ, I will need help posting it!

You'll need a host, and make sure you can export to MP3 format, most recording software records in un-compressed wav format

[iumonito]

Lo prometido es deuda.  I am unhappy with the sound quality of the recording, but while I fidget, let me see if I can post this little something (it is a .wav file from Audacity).

Having no takers for what to record, now you will have to guess what it is, but I need to figure out how to post it (I am trying to paste it to this message but nothing happens).

[Axtremus]

iumonito,

I have sent you a private message about posting your recording.

[iumonito]

OK, it doesn't really do justice to the sound, but it is a start.  The first recording of the Irmler is posted in the audition side of pianoforum.  It is Schumann-Godowsky, a pretty little nothing.

Enjoy or forgive me.  Or both.   

[Axtremus]

Thanks, iumonito. I don't want to start a long post on piano recording right now... but I'll come back and share my poor man's solution to piano recording in a day or two.

OK, iumonito, it took me more than "a day or two," but I've finally got it written up. Please see this thread: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,9818.0.html

[iumonito]

I got the piano tuned today.  Julio did a nice job.  I just posted a little something in the audition room if you are in the mood.  Look for Godowsky's Alt Wien.

Cheers.

[iumonito]

It has been a while.

Here are some recordings on Gerty (my Irmler piano).  It is aging beautifully.

I hope you can enjoy the sound regardless of the performer (Me  ).

Schubert-Godowsky:  https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,23857.0.html
Schumann: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,25731.0.html
Godowsky: https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,12091.0.html