Five Year Plan

[00range]

In accordance with the ideas put forth by Bernhard, I went ahead and compiled a list of 100 pieces I would sell my soul to the devil to play.

After doing so, my concern is that I might be missing some important works that could help to further me as a pianist.

I'm a little over halfway to 100, so I thought I'd slap my list up, and let the suggestions fly. So, in no particular order...

Albeniz - Tango from Suite es Pagnola, opus 47

Bach - 15 2-part Inventions.
           Suite no. 2 in A Minor

Beethoven - Sonata No. 8 in C Minor, opus 13 "Pathetique"
                     Piano Sonata opus 27, No. 2 in C# minor "Moonlight"

Brahms - Intermezzos in E flat major No. 1, and B flat minor No. 2, opus 117
               Waltz in A flat major, opus 39/15

Chopin - Etudes, opus 25.
              Sonata No. 2 in B Flat Minor, opus 35
              Nocturne in E flat Major opus 9/12

Debussy - Clair de Lune
                 Arabesque 1

Dvorak - Slavonic Dance

Grieg - Wedding at Troldhaugen, opus 65
            Piano Concerto in A minor, opus 16
            Elegies, opus 34

Liszt - Concert Study No. 2 "Voice of the Woods"
           Etude "Dance of Gnomes"
           Etude "Rustling in the Forest"
           Funerailles
           Lovedream No. 3 opus 62

Mendelsohhn-Bartholdy - Song without words, opus 62/5

Mozart - Rondo in D Major, KV485
              Turkish March

Pachelbel - Canon in D (I have to have something to pick up the chicks, right? )

Rachmaninov - Piano Concerto in C minor, opus 18

Rameau - Gavotte with 5 variations

Scarlatti - Sonata in A major, L. 391

Schubert - Impromptu in G flat major, opus 90 No. 3
                 Moment Musicaux No. 3 "Air Russe"

Schumann - Soaring, opus 12/2
                    Scenes from Childhood, opus 15/7

Tchaikovksy - Barcarolle
                      Seasons, opus 37a
                      Chant sans Paroles, opus 40/6
                      Opus 5

Alright, so I alphabetized it, sue me. I greatly appreciate input from all, although I have to admit, I would hold a reply from Bernhard "Caesar" close to my heart! 

[LVB op.57]

definitely some well tempered clavier

[BoliverAllmon]

definitely some well tempered clavier

more bach period. Also shostakovich Preludes and fugues are nice as is his second sonata.

[00range]

Alright.

Bach - WTC I + II. (I actually ordered this music about a week ago, so it will work out well).

I'll check out the Shostakovich.

Also, I know I've heard some beautiful stuff by Ravel, but I don't have any in my music collection, could anyone reccomend a starting place?

[steinwayguy]

You need to broaden some things. For example, you can't play two intermezzi from Brahms 117 without playing the other. Play all of Kinderszenen, not just Traumerie. And play all of Mozart 331. etc. etc.

[cziffra]

Well done for making such a beast of a list. Step 2 is sticking to it, but at least you're past step one, and that's a worthwhile achievement!

[00range]

Thanks for the encouragement. I think one of the problems with adding all of the rest of the pieces in these sets, is that I would be well over 100 by the time I got done. I'll try to add the pieces you've mentioned, but as I understood it, the goal was to compile music that that I personally enjoy. Now, who's to say I wouldn't actually prefer some of, for instance, the other Intermezzi over the ones I've listed? I guess I need to listen to more music.

Ah, if Step #2 is sticking to it, I think 1a is getting my teacher to comply. 

I showed her my list today, and it went so-so. She was happy that I'd been thinking long term, but generally thought most of the pieces were too high out of my reach. I guess I can't disagree, that's why it's a five year list, and not a five week list. Basically, she hinted that, if I came to my next lesson with everything she gave me today polished, that she'd be pick a piece off of my list to give to me. She didn't seem overly thrilled to sit down and actually order the list, in terms of difficulty, and what I should be learning first.

It'd be a big help if someone could start me off with 3-4 of the pieces that would be appropriate to begin.

[BoliverAllmon]

Thanks for the encouragement. I think one of the problems with adding all of the rest of the pieces in these sets, is that I would be well over 100 by the time I got done. I'll try to add the pieces you've mentioned, but as I understood it, the goal was to compile music that that I personally enjoy. Now, who's to say I wouldn't actually prefer some of, for instance, the other Intermezzi over the ones I've listed? I guess I need to listen to more music.

Ah, if Step #2 is sticking to it, I think 1a is getting my teacher to comply. 

I showed her my list today, and it went so-so. She was happy that I'd been thinking long term, but generally thought most of the pieces were too high out of my reach. I guess I can't disagree, that's why it's a five year list, and not a five week list. Basically, she hinted that, if I came to my next lesson with everything she gave me today polished, that she'd be pick a piece off of my list to give to me. She didn't seem overly thrilled to sit down and actually order the list, in terms of difficulty, and what I should be learning first.

It'd be a big help if someone could start me off with 3-4 of the pieces that would be appropriate to begin.

I would take 3 easier pieces (bach inventions, pachabel, or the such) and one piece that is harder. That is at least me though. After reading your thread though it got me to thinking long term and I tried to write out 100 pieces. You are right it isn't easy. It just goes to show you how narrow minded and blindly focused on very few pieces. Good job on thinking out there.

boliver

[00range]

Yet more great input, I love these boards! I really did find it inspiring to put this list together, as if, almost just by associating myself with them, it served to boost my confidence.

I think the real challenge is connecting the pieces in order to form a feasible long term pass. I worry that if I try to tackle them individually, I will have no way of knowing where I really am at. Maybe it's unrealistic to map out such a long period of time, but I know how effective it is to have a solid plan in order to set targets for yourself. I guess that's what I'm really after, long term targets. Whether or not I make them is irrelevant, it's being able to gauge myself so accurately that is so appealing.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my rambling. 

[BoliverAllmon]

Yet more great input, I love these boards! I really did find it inspiring to put this list together, as if, almost just by associating myself with them, it served to boost my confidence.

I think the real challenge is connecting the pieces in order to form a feasible long term pass. I worry that if I try to tackle them individually, I will have no way of knowing where I really am at. Maybe it's unrealistic to map out such a long period of time, but I know how effective it is to have a solid plan in order to set targets for yourself. I guess that's what I'm really after, long term targets. Whether or not I make them is irrelevant, it's being able to gauge myself so accurately that is so appealing.

Anyway, thanks for putting up with my rambling. 

hey no problem continue rambling.

[steinwayguy]

It'd be a big help if someone could start me off with 3-4 of the pieces that would be appropriate to begin.

I think you need to learn some of the most-standard repertoire first. My guess is you haven't learned a Beethoven sonata if the Pathetique and Moonlight are on your list. These are super-standard first and second Beethoven sonatas. Learn those, as well as the ridiculously overplayed E-flat Chopin Nocturne. Methinks.

[00range]

Ah ha! See, this is the kind of stuff I have aboslutely no clue about!

I am wrapping up a few pieces this week for my lesson next Tuesday, and if all goes well, I should be starting a new piece, and I was definitely wanting to go Chopin, I'll give the Nocturne consideration, although I was leaning towards and Etude. Any suggestions for a first Etude to tackle?

I've love to start the Moonlight sonata. It's always been one of those pieces on my must learn list, it truly is a classic.

Thanks SteinwayGuy.

[lostinidlewonder]

Start with a prelude from Bach WTCI+II and always have them playing along side you no matter how long you play piano. One movement from Beethoven Pathetique. Doing all 3 is overwhelming I think, unless you've had practice studying entire movements. If you do choose to study all 3 then do them all at once instead of one at a time since you can draw knowledge from each and relate them to one other.

A Chopin Etude (whichever one feels easiest to your hands to start with) and Shubert Impromptu. They are all very major pieces which all serious pianists should know as soon as they can. They highlight a very important "singing voice" within the piano music which has to always be supported and never drowned out or be too dry and without expression. I think that focusing on this singing quality of the piano is much more important than targeting pieces with hard technical complexities.

Technical stuff should come more naturally rather than a forced, excessivley repeated excersise(if you look at a bar in the morning and by the end of the day you still cannot play/memorise it, its too hard move on.) Lots of people rely on their subconscious effort to memorise/play their music, like memorising/mastering 70% of the music and hoping the the other 30% will come. This works but it is slow(compared to disiplined conscious study) and can leave you with holes and deficiencies in your playing you dont realise(phrasing, expression, clarity of passages etc). Make sure the pieces you practice are getting your full attention in all areas, and that nothing is left to just "hope" that it will be absorbed later on.

Teachers are usually a good resource to ensure that you are not stagnating since they can give advice on the peices you are actually trying to learn and can offer guidance to which peices they think would suit your musical development. You should take your list to a teacher you have been working or will work with for a much more accurate choice of music for you. They then will be able(if they are worth the money you pay them) to tell you what your ability needs (improve your physical/mental ability at the piano) and to know what you are best at so that they can give you pieces which you can absorb fast and let your repetiore grow.

[00range]

I'm curious as to what you mean when you say "Start with a prelude from Bach WTCI+II and always have them playing along side you no matter how long you play piano." Do you mean to always be working on a piece from the WTC? Or listening to them on CD?

I think if I were to start a Beethoven sonata, it would probably be the Moonlight at this point. I would really love to have the entire sonata, not just a movement; this is just a personal preference I have, I like to finish things once they're begun.

I have brought my list to my teacher, and, as I said earlier here, "I showed her my list today, and it went so-so. She was happy that I'd been thinking long term, but generally thought most of the pieces were too high out of my reach. I guess I can't disagree, that's why it's a five year list, and not a five week list. Basically, she hinted that, if I came to my next lesson with everything she gave me today polished, that she'd be pick a piece off of my list to give to me. She didn't seem overly thrilled to sit down and actually order the list, in terms of difficulty, and what I should be learning first." (I don't blame you for not reading the entire thread, I tend to be rather long winded at times) As I said, she wasn't opposed to me starting pieces on my list, and she is having me learn the first Invention, which I started a day before my lesson.

As far as the technical aspect and practice methods, I've been reading every post I can find by Bernhard, as well as Chang's book. I am truly speechless at the knowledge contained therein, and I'm trying my best to implement as much of it as I can.

[lostinidlewonder]

Sorry for missing what you wrote about your teacher before i even started to post here, i just missed it 

Bachs Well Tempered Clavier is the old testament of piano playing(Chopin+Liszt Etudes are the new). It cannot be ever neglected because it encompasses a lot of keyboard fingering technique(especially the fugues), coordination(counterpoint etc), expression(as notes go up the keyboard they get louder, as they go down the keyboard they get softer, quavers dotted over semiquavers, some general rules of expressing Bach) and all in such limited use of notes.

You should always at least have one of these practiced next to whatever else you are playing. If you notice the set of 48 cover every single key signature, so usually it is a good idea to practice one which has the same key as "harder" music you learn. Not to say that the WTC is easy, it definatly is not, but neither is it overly difficult (although some fugues are tough on memory). This means listening to heaps of different recordings and of course playing it, disecting the sheet music up, putting color, your own notes or others on it.

If you are going to work on the Moonlight Sonata and want to do all 3, I would suggest doing all three simultaneously and have a good Bar Per Day rate on all three. If you don't you will stagnate over points and it will take you ages to learn it. Memorise the music, dont play it perfectly or at peformance level. That come after the notes have been absorbed. This is a crucial point in trying to absorb bigger works at once, you do not aim to play it at peformance level straight away, you aim to learn the notes with some representation of the expression. This is where the efficiency in learning big pieces lie. Don't be overly upset if you cannot articulate this or that, or the growing/falling in sound/tempo isn't up to your expectations. That will come much faster once the notes are memorised.
It is slower to master everything at peformance level in one bar then move on to the next. Much faster in my experience to learn the notes, then go back and think about how to do it at peformance level. Of course you are always thinking about how the peice should be peformed even when you learn the notes, but don't get overly obsessed about it. Leave memorisation seperate from mastering expression when learning big peices.

That pushes you to choose your rate. Usually it isnt as clear cut as saying, 5 bars per day on all three for 10 weeks. Because sometimes you might be able to do 15 bars of one movement or 20 in one day, but others you may come across tough parts which push your rate down to 3. This is where getting color pencils come in handy. Because if you take time to note where everything is, you can measure what you think may be tough. Before i even start learning peices i draw out a schedule, what has to be done every day until it is finished. You find you don't founder as much and waste time if you set yourself a plan. I have always been taught, what gets written gets done, I really dont think it is any different when learning music.

[Lance Morrison]

but the WTC was not written for piano, it was for harpsichord, clavichord, or organ....so perhaps it is the "old testament" of keyboard playing, but i still think that is stretching it

[lostinidlewonder]

It wasnt written for piano, but it was written for an instrument which has black and white keys from which it evolved from. There lies a very tough choice when playing Bachs WTC, since the 1st book is more Harpsichord music while the 2nd book is much more Clavichord, how on earth do we play it for a modern pianoforte?

WTC is old testament because it doesn't aim to utilise big changes in volume(which the modern piano is realy built for), but the music is written in a way so that the rises and fall in volume are natural and not required to be fully voiced by a pianists ability to change volume with the piano. The WTC to me seems to be the best books from the old keyboard days, which encompasses a lot of the keyboard techniques hundreds of years before it. It is really on the verge of the end of the Baroque and the coming into the Classical. It is like on the verge of old keyboard instruments(Harpischord etc) to the modern pianoforte. Bach just lies in such a middle point in musical history and the WTC is just a master stroke of this extermely important time in keyboard development.

There is nothing in the WTC that is obselete in piano playing today, infact a lot of content in there when I play it for a while then move onto something abstract like Scriabin for instance, the Scriabin feels a great deal more secure. Bach's WTC has a strange, mystical effect on the fingers and form which allow you to have much more flexibility in your fingering and control of shapes etc. And this is all done with limited notes, you just cant take away any notes from Bach, his music is very pure and how it should be. But more modern music you can miss notes, hit a clanger and people wont notice, bach has no exceptions though, it is very precise music. So WTC is an extermly important book for all pianists, no real pianist will say its not.

[Lance Morrison]

points taken. you are right to be sure. sometimes I just get upset with Bach and with peoples' perception of him. sorry.

[chopinisque]

I am wrapping up a few pieces this week for my lesson next Tuesday, and if all goes well, I should be starting a new piece, and I was definitely wanting to go Chopin, I'll give the Nocturne consideration, although I was leaning towards and Etude. Any suggestions for a first Etude to tackle?

The easiest etude in op25 is no. 2.  But it isn't one bit easy...

Also, the tango by Albeniz, Rondo by Mozart and the Canon in D are amongst the easiest in your list.

[BoliverAllmon]

do you think we should work on 100 pieces or work on say 5-10 hrs? I mean I started my list and I only have about 60 pieces so far. I started to notice though that I already have 8 concertoes and several pieces that are around the 30 min. mark (goldberg variations being one). That is alot of music to learn in just 5 years. That is averaging 2 concertoes a year plus 18 other pieces. That seems insane. Doable probably, but insane.

boliver

[steinwayguy]

I have no idea what lostinidlewonder is thinking. If you're just starting the first two-part invention you have no place to play from the second book of the Well-Tempered Clavier.

Do the Moonlight, all of it.

The easiest etude in op25 is no. 2. But it isn't one bit easy...

That's ridiculous. There are at least four etudes harder than that. Op. 10 No. 6 and 9, Op. 25 No. 1 and 3.

Go for 10/9 or 25/1. You'll like those the most.

[lostinidlewonder]

I have no idea what lostinidlewonder is thinking.[/i].

You never do

Hes not a beginner and the peices in WTC are much more important than the inventions. And read again i didnt say do Bk2, i said it would be an idea to choose one which is written in the same key signature of another piece you play.

If he comes back and says, damn all are too hard(which i doubt), then go and do the invention's.

[00range]

Do the Moonlight, all of it.

That's ridiculous. There are at least four etudes harder than that. Op. 10 No. 6 and 9, Op. 25 No. 1 and 3.

Go for 10/9 or 25/1. You'll like those the most.

I plan on doing the Moonlight. I might start it next week, but if not, within the year most definitely.

So, for my first Chopin etude, 10/9 or 25/1? Which one would you say is "easier"? (I know you can just about throw the word easy out the window with Chopin's etudes, but humor me)