What makes the difference(s) between an invention and a fugue ?

[m1469]

That's the question, plain and simple...

[BoliverAllmon]

I know there is probably more to this, but I basically think of an invention as a little fugue.

[willcowskitz]

I basically think of an invention as a little fugue.

???

Invention literally refers to a composition that isn't clearly of any particular type, but rather an inventive one in sense of styles, sort of "experimental" though I'd avoid using such words in case of Bach.

[m1469]

Invention literally refers to a composition that isn't clearly of any particular type, but rather an inventive one in sense of styles, sort of "experimental" though I'd avoid using such words in case of Bach.

Okay, I guess where as a fugue is more of a clearly defined form, on a level.

I assume one would avoid using the word "experimental" with Bach in the case of inventions simply because he was very adept in his understanding and ability to demonstrate his understanding.  Though, was he not actually doing exactly that, experimenting to a degree?   Or maybe his was more a teaching tool to exercise the student's experimental thought.  :-

m1469

[pianonut]

what immediately springs to my mind is a clearly contrapuntal piece (fugue) vs. a more homophonic (melody over harmony) piece.  i believe the fugue showed off more of what the organ could do instead of the harpsichord or clavichord.  you hear lots of bass.  they sound like church pieces, too.  i sometimes wonder if he used them in church (as preludes to something - and fugues, and to fill up the space with wondrous sound).

ok.  i don't like being wrong!  i looked up in the new harvard music dictionary, and it said a prelude established the pitch or key of a  following piece.  it is identical in style to a toccata, ricercar, fantasia, etc. all feature an idiomatic virtuosity, rhythmic freedom, and loose thematic construction, reflecting frequent contemporaneous ovservations that were usually improvised.  bach and buxtehude ARE mentioned in relation to the organ - so i'm partially right!

[BoliverAllmon]

what immediately springs to my mind is a clearly contrapuntal piece (fugue) vs. a more homophonic (melody over harmony) piece.  i believe the fugue showed off more of what the organ could do instead of the harpsichord or clavichord.  you hear lots of bass.  they sound like church pieces, too.  i sometimes wonder if he used them in church (as preludes to something - and fugues, and to fill up the space with wondrous sound).

ok.  i don't like being wrong!  i looked up in the new harvard music dictionary, and it said a prelude established the pitch or key of a  following piece.  it is identical in style to a toccata, ricercar, fantasia, etc. all feature an idiomatic virtuosity, rhythmic freedom, and loose thematic construction, reflecting frequent contemporaneous ovservations that were usually improvised.  bach and buxtehude ARE mentioned in relation to the organ - so i'm partially right!

are you sure you are right? we are talking about inventions not preludes

[Vivers]

Both inventions and fugues are contrapuntal/polyphonic works; the difference is in the strict form that fugues must follow in order to deserve that name.

You'll notice that in all fugues, a clear, solo voice announces the subject, followed by that subject being repeated a 5th above, or 4th below (on the dominant if the subject was on the tonic, or on the tonic if the subject was on the dominant). The motive will appear in all voices (be that 2, 3, 4, or 5, or more), all in the home key before heading into the middle section where the motive may be altered through augmentation, inversion, etc. Through the middle section, the subject goes through key modulations, and in the final section, the subject is stated in its original form, in the original key again (no fancy stuff like inversion).

Not all inventions follow this form. You'll notice that while some of them (#2 in C- , BVW 773) follow the fugue form pretty well, most do not. They have a motive that is heard multiple times, but there isn't always persistent drive with the subject that carries through in a well defined way from beginning to end.

You'll find a lot of pieces that don't really have any imitated counterpoint call themselves inventions because they were experimental pieces, generally written in polyphony.

[pianonut]

oops on the invention.  guess i read the question too fast.  it's good to ask or try to answer questions that you assume you know the answer to - just to refresh.

[BoliverAllmon]

oops on the invention.  guess i read the question too fast.  it's good to ask or try to answer questions that you assume you know the answer to - just to refresh.

no problem good info nonetheless.

[wintervind]

Okay so.....
an invention makes use of a short musical idea (a motive) that is imitated. As with a fugue there is a development section, which includes modulations to closely related keys, which leads to the recapitulation, or restatement of the original motive.

a fugue is made up of motives (the textbook defination of a motive is "a short memorable musical idea"). A fugue uses many of the same compositional techniques as a invention, like imitation (of course!) but can take it further to include several countersubjects (but inventions can have these too!)
Ok, now I've confused myself!

[BoliverAllmon]

Okay so.....
an invention makes use of a short musical idea (a motive) that is imitated. As with a fugue there is a development section, which includes modulations to closely related keys, which leads to the recapitulation, or restatement of the original motive.

a fugue is made up of motives (the textbook defination of a motive is "a short memorable musical idea"). A fugue uses many of the same compositional techniques as a invention, like imitation (of course!) but can take it further to include several countersubjects (but inventions can have these too!)
Ok, now I've confused myself!

I still think my mini fugue is a good definition.

[Daevren]

Invention
(in-VEN-shun)


[Eng., Fr.]

Term used, mostly in reference to Baroque music, to denote a short, contrapuntal composition, usually implying an originality of idea, yet in a contrapuntal style and similar to a prelude or fantasia.

A fugue is a rather strict form involving imitation.

[BoliverAllmon]

Invention
(in-VEN-shun)


[Eng., Fr.]

Term used, mostly in reference to Baroque music, to denote a short, contrapuntal composition, usually implying an originality of idea, yet in a contrapuntal style and similar to a prelude or fantasia.

A fugue is a rather strict form involving imitation.

ok so maybe i am not that close to right.