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Topic: Bach, Shostakovich: P's and F's; compositional intent and how to interpret ?  (Read 2487 times)

Offline m1469

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I am currently undertaking studies with Bach's Preludes and Fugues as well as Shostakovich's Preludes and Fugues.  I am wondering something in relation to this:

As stated here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2857.msg59558.html#msg59558
(Bernhard)

There is no evidence that Bach intended his preludes and fugues to be performed in public, but they were composed more for study and teaching.  This is fine and useful, and I feel that when I study them myself, I should keep this in mind to gain a clearer concept of what is being intended.  The context of these pieces make more sense to me this way.

However, with Shostakovich, I believe he would have intended for them to be performed and composed them with this in mind.  The context changes then.  Although they can be lessons in analysis, shouldn't Shostakovich's Preludes and fugues be considered primarily as performance pieces rather than merely teaching aids?  I think it makes a difference in one's interpretation and is therefore an important thing to distinguish.  What do you think?

Particularly, I wonder if it should/would make a difference as far as voicing is concerned with the fugues, for example?  Would one in the case of Shostakovich wish to bring out the subject and it's entries, whereas with Bach, one would not?  I just think it would make a difference in how one would state the music.  Does this make any sense?

Maybe they were composed simply as studies   :-?

m1469
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline pianonut

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okm1469(and bernhard)

i agree and disagree at the same time.  when i was younger, one of my teachers was really into teaching me as many of the bach preludes and fugues as he could.  after one or two, i was finished (myself speaking).  they were not as interesting as other pieces, to me.  theyWERE more like studies at that point.

now that i am really getting into piano more...i consider them very much performance pieces (for myself).  virtuosity can be more that just playing long virtuosic pieces (not that i am glen gould, or anything) but it can be in bringing out the lines and voices as one would clearly hear when they are played on the organ.  i don't always hear the voices (as they would be brought out when sung) on the piano.  when i hear them on the organ...it is magnificent.  i think one should play them as though they were conducting a small choir (and sing the parts as they each enter)  making them sing evenly when all together. 

for the FIRST time, i listened to some shostakovich preludes and fugues today (on amazon).  i am really tempted to go and buy some sheet music of at least three or four of them.  they are probably what would be on a program of lang-lang or somebody can play them well (especially the fast one #3?)  they are unique and fantastique.  if i were to choose between listening, though, i would choose both.  i like bach for the baroque era and i like shostakovich for the contemporary era.
do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.

Offline Daevren

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It is very simple.

Pick the ones you like. Arrange them in the way you prefer most.

Thats it.

I would pick my favorites. Which are probably only fugues, preludes are less interesting to me. And have them flow over in each other in terms of character.

The reason for the structured character of the pieces is obvious. Bach wrote these to challenge and/or practice his composition skill. Historical accounts back up the fact that the audience didn't care about this kind of music. I am not sure we can say Bach himself liked them as music. I believe he did. They made him feel proud. Like any creator of art views his good creations as his or her children.

Also notice that Bach set a challenge for him in each of these fugues. They all have a small or big unusual element.

So I would say:

Please stop pairing the preludes and the fugues.

Please stop playing them in cylces.

Thank you.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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okm1469(and bernhard)

i agree and disagree at the same time.  when i was younger, one of my teachers was really into teaching me as many of the bach preludes and fugues as he could.  after one or two, i was finished (myself speaking).  they were not as interesting as other pieces, to me.  theyWERE more like studies at that point.

now that i am really getting into piano more...i consider them very much performance pieces (for myself).  virtuosity can be more that just playing long virtuosic pieces (not that i am glen gould, or anything) but it can be in bringing out the lines and voices as one would clearly hear when they are played on the organ.  i don't always hear the voices (as they would be brought out when sung) on the piano.  when i hear them on the organ...it is magnificent.  i think one should play them as though they were conducting a small choir (and sing the parts as they each enter)  making them sing evenly when all together. 

for the FIRST time, i listened to some shostakovich preludes and fugues today (on amazon).  i am really tempted to go and buy some sheet music of at least three or four of them.  they are probably what would be on a program of lang-lang or somebody can play them well (especially the fast one #3?)  they are unique and fantastique.  if i were to choose between listening, though, i would choose both.  i like bach for the baroque era and i like shostakovich for the contemporary era.

If you ever have the ability of getting the mp3's get them NOW.  ;D When you get them don't listen to them until you have around 2 hrs of free time. Listen to them from beginning to end. There is just something about them in a cycle. Shostakovich himself is quoted as saying he wrote them as a cycle and even performed all 24 P&F in a sitting at least twice in his life (he wasn't much of a concert pianist). It blows my mind how he was able to construct all of these pieces together. To me they are like one large piece with 48 mvts. Really cool.

Offline pianonut

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dear bolivarallmon,

yes!  i did that when i was given glen gould's recordings of the bach preludes and fugues.  when you have a good performer, lots of time (as you mention), and a relaxed time space to really listen -- i think one could 'get to know' the composer really well by listening to an entire work.

on a recital program (you'd have to be prepared for it) it might overlabor the listeners though i don't see much difference between that (preludes and fugues in entirety) and variations (ie handel variations) in which you would probably play all of them so you can hear the ranges and attitudes.
do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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dear bolivarallmon,

yes!  i did that when i was given glen gould's recordings of the bach preludes and fugues.  when you have a good performer, lots of time (as you mention), and a relaxed time space to really listen -- i think one could 'get to know' the composer really well by listening to an entire work.

on a recital program (you'd have to be prepared for it) it might overlabor the listeners though i don't see much difference between that (preludes and fugues in entirety) and variations (ie handel variations) in which you would probably play all of them so you can hear the ranges and attitudes.

yeah people tell me that it would overlabor the audience but why? I mean it would be the same as listening to a very large recital program. I would put an intermission inthere probably. That would be an awesome recital for me to do someday. (starts dreaming)

Offline lostinidlewonder

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Particularly, I wonder if it should/would make a difference as far as voicing is concerned with the fugues, for example?  Would one in the case of Shostakovich wish to bring out the subject and it's entries, whereas with Bach, one would not?  I just think it would make a difference in how one would state the music.  Does this make any sense?

When playing Bach's fugues it is especially important that you don't get stuck in thinking, i have to now bring this or that out. You have to aim to balance what naturally isn't easier to bring out. There are many instances where a particular voice is tough to naturally play balanced with the other notes, this is where you have to support it. I know a great deal of examiners and teachers who get utterly distraught when they hear people bring this or that out.

Why are they so upset hearing this in Bach fugues? I would say it is because when you listen to Fugues you should be able to choose what to listen to, when you listen to it 1 time or 2 times or 3 times you can always listen to something else, and discover something interesting to listen to. When you start giving bias to one note or the other you limit this experience. So you must balance everything, let the natural volumes grow and fall, don't get too stuck over making one thing louder than the other.

Shostakovich eye dont touch ewww. lol
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Offline BoliverAllmon

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My teacher put it this way. Fugues have voices. A certain section of the choir doesn't scream while the others whisper. Why should you try to do that withthe fugue?

boliver

Offline pianonut

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i agree with you all about the voicing.  listening for something different each time you play the same recording is a cool idea!  why don't you like the shostakovich preludes and fugues (lostinidle)?  do you think he was too plagaristic on some of them?  i haven't heard them all yet, so i really don't know what to think.
do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.

Offline Daevren

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I don't think people mean that you should play one voice louder.

They mean that you should be aware of the polyphonic character of the pieces. Don't play it vertical, like chords, but horizontal. The bringing out of the subjects means playing the right notes legato, playing the right notes for the right lenght, very slightly accent some notes.

If you listen to Glenn Gould notice how he plays some notes very staccato while the others are normal. That is the idea. If he would play everything staccato it wouldn't sound as good. 

Fuges have voices. The voices should stay independent. That is hard to do considering some parts it really becomes like playing chords. At these times you should be careful. Keep the voices independent.

But the voices character also means that the voices should be equal in most ways. At the end they should all be balanced. One voice is not more important than another, at least overal. At some part you might consider one voice more important because it plays the subject. You should really articulate the subjects so they stand out a bit. But don't be blunt and play them louder.

If the performer isn't aware that the fugue contains subjects and that they are important and he/she doesn't know where they are it will really make the performance a bit poorer.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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I don't think people mean that you should play one voice louder.

They mean that you should be aware of the polyphonic character of the pieces. Don't play it vertical, like chords, but horizontal. The bringing out of the subjects means playing the right notes legato, playing the right notes for the right lenght, very slightly accent some notes.

If you listen to Glenn Gould notice how he plays some notes very staccato while the others are normal. That is the idea. If he would play everything staccato it wouldn't sound as good. 

Fuges have voices. The voices should stay independent. That is hard to do considering some parts it really becomes like playing chords. At these times you should be careful. Keep the voices independent.

But the voices character also means that the voices should be equal in most ways. At the end they should all be balanced. One voice is not more important than another, at least overal. At some part you might consider one voice more important because it plays the subject. You should really articulate the subjects so they stand out a bit. But don't be blunt and play them louder.

If the performer isn't aware that the fugue contains subjects and that they are important and he/she doesn't know where they are it will really make the performance a bit poorer.

very well put.

Offline m1469

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Okay, let me voice myself a little better.  I was linking together ideas in my head but not on the page. 

I am trying to understand the fundamental function behind the fugues, in particular, between both Shostakovich's compositions and those of Bach. I believe the primary functions of the fugues may be different one composer from another, and I am wondering whether as a performer, one should interpret them differently at a fundamental level based on the possible differences in their conception. 

Bach, for example, is said to have composed his contrapuntal works as teaching/study pieces for the purpose of compositional thinking rather than that of performance.  They, however, just happen to be "pleasing to the ear" though this is not their primary function

While it is discussed eloquently in more than one place regarding both the inventions as well as the WTC, I will post a link to the one about the WTC as this is my most immediate concern.  (just in case the link does not work properly, it is in the Student's Corner, currently pg 3 : "Plan for Learning Bach's WTC, reply # 9).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2857.msg59558.html#msg59558
(Bernhard)

Now, with Bach, it is the primary aim and therefore nature of the works to function mainly as a place to recognize how one subject can be cycled through using different compositional devices.  They are formed and fashioned for this very intent.  The form of a "fugue" just happened to come about from this thinking on the part of Bach and, the solo performer as we know it today, was not really around until Liszt (as far as I understand it), just to set the  context of my thought.

While in the case of Shostakovich, the form of the "fugue" already existed as did the solo performer.  So I am thinking that Shostakovich used the the already created form of the fugue as a tool for "pleasing the ear" as it's primary function.  I wonder if his intent and primary aim in the conception of these fugues was not to develop compositional techniques, but rather for the sake of reaching the listener ? 

While in both cases it may create an aural effect, one is aimed primarily at learning the form, though it may presently reach the audience (though not thought of this way at the time) and the other is aimed at reaching the audience, while using the form.  It is different I think.

So I am just wondering if a performer playing both Shostakovich and Bach should have different thoughts in mind as far as interpretation is concerned at a fundamental level, or if, a fugue is a fugue is a fugue ???

Huh, I am a little confused now...

Thanks for your replies

m1469
"The greatest thing in this world is not so much where we are, but in what direction we are moving"  ~Oliver Wendell Holmes

Offline Daevren

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Bach is dead. Shostakovich is dead. Their intent is kind of irrelevant.

We only have the sheet music. The performer should take it, look at it and recreate it.

Bach did his think, Shostakovich just copied him(I think).

Of course there is a difference in the motivation of the composers. But if those are important then Bach WTC shouldn't be played, right?

We already reinterpreted Bachs work for the post-Liszt piano recital culture.

I get the idea but, I guess like you, I don't see how it would influence the way the music should or could be played.

Offline lostinidlewonder

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why don't you like the shostakovich preludes and fugues (lostinidle)?
Well to me i find that Bach prelude and fugues can sometimes sound like they are going no where. Shostakovich really takes it to the no where zone for me. I can't get my head around his choice of notes. I mean don't get me wrong there are some moments i like, Prelude no 15 in D flat major, but doesnt everything in that key always sound so good ;) except his fugue in that key  >:( horrid, horrid! You play that you drive people insane. I feel like im climbing up, then i fall down, and OH i have to get up again quick climb climb! No but you are going to fall again! And now things fall on you, and you have to climb higher oh no stop wait go again, now boom bang.  :-X Throw up

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Offline BoliverAllmon

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Well to me i find that Bach prelude and fugues can sometimes sound like they are going no where. Shostakovich really takes it to the no where zone for me. I can't get my head around his choice of notes. I mean don't get me wrong there are some moments i like, Prelude no 15 in D flat major, but doesnt everything in that key always sound so good ;) except his fugue in that key  >:( horrid, horrid! You play that you drive people insane. I feel like im climbing up, then i fall down, and OH i have to get up again quick climb climb! No but you are going to fall again! And now things fall on you, and you have to climb higher oh no stop wait go again, now boom bang.  :-X Throw up



wow that was an  interesting description. I personally enjoy the roller coaster of emotions that he will you send you on.

Offline pianonut

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thanks for the answer about the preludes and fugues of 'shosty.'  interesting how form sort of fell apart on some things in the 20th century.  i sort of like the unexpected at the end, but i agree about not liking too many ups and downs.  that's what i didn't like about busoni concerto.  it didn't take me by the hand and lead me somewhere.  it was like getting lost on the freeway.  you take an exit and then try to get back on.

do you know why benches fall apart?  it is because they have lids with little tiny hinges so you can store music inside them.  hint:  buy a bench that does not hinge.  buy it for sturdiness.
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