Teaching Rhythm

[sarah_ward]

Dear All,

How do you teach rhythm to an adult?  While an adult's proficiency with reading notes is fair, I've noticed lately with my adult students that their rhythm reading is quite poor.  I find they also want to play pieces above their ability. 

Does anyone have any tips or methods on teaching students to read rhythms proficiently? 

Any feedback would be much appreciated!

Regards,
Sarah

[BoliverAllmon]

clapping rhythmns work well for me.

[ted]

Give them some simpler boogie and ragtime perhaps.

[timothy42b]

I think this is one of the most underestimated difficulties of teaching adults.

They are going to have great difficulty with steady time, and for some it will be impossible.  Counting works to some extent if you slow them down and make them do it out loud.  Counting simple dotted quarter - eighth rhythms is not easy at first even if you do have a steady internal beat going.  It isn't obvious that it depends on that, but I think it does. 

I would suggest a lot of metronome work and a lot of counting, and maybe going through the Robert Starer book on rhythms.  I would expect it to be hard, and I wouldn't feel too bad if some of them just don't ever get it. 

Somebody should take the Starer book and put it on CD with each part on a separate track, so that you could assign it as homework.  Actually I'd consider doing that myself but I don't want to infringe the copyright.  (I'm a little fuzzy on what's allowed.) 

[claudio]

hi sara,

i am an adult beginner (33, two years piano practice now) with serious rythm inefficiencies 

however, it believe it is not that i cannot read rythm as proposed in the
score and i am a good counter as well 

my main problem is an exaggerate attention on playing the right notes.

i guess it is the same with languages. some people just start bubbling along
without caring for gramatical correctness. some keep constantly worrying
and rather don't speak at all...

i tend to get better in rythm when i am comfortabel playing a piece (e.g. notes,
runs, fingering, tripplets, etc.). my guess is that's the part where you need
patience with adults. at least, we motivate ourselves 

what has helped me recently is that my teacher has started to focus on my
breathing when playing s.th. as i tend to hold my breath at difficult passages.
as soon as i start breathing relaxed again, the piece gets more comfortable and
i can "lean back" into the rythm. it's like distancing yourself from the challenge.

[rlefebvr]

We need more input here....metronome work is a good idea, but the truth is, it's not going to happen, at least not enough to make an impact. Clapping is something my teacher uses a lot, but if he is not there, the clapping falls apart most of the time. It does work however.


There has to be other things possible to help in the matter.

So far we have

-Metronome work....good idea, only if student ever uses it. NOT.
-Clapping......good idea, but can lead to mistakes if not followed by a teacher.


more......

[timothy42b]

We need more input here....metronome work is a good idea, but the truth is, it's not going to happen, at least not enough to make an impact. Clapping is something my teacher uses a lot, but if he is not there, the clapping falls apart most of the time. It does work however.


There has to be other things possible to help in the matter.

So far we have

-Metronome work....good idea, only if student ever uses it. NOT.
-Clapping......good idea, but can lead to mistakes if not followed by a teacher.


more......

Well, you assign work, and you check it.  You assign a scale, and expect them to work on it, and you know if they did or not by how well they play it. 

With rhythm you are trying to accomplish two things:  internalize a steady time pulse, and learn some specific patterns.  For adults I think you need more repetition than is realized.

Here is what I suggest.  Get the Starer book or some similar book of rhythmic exercises.  Or write your own, based on what you find in the music.  What these are is a series of progressively more difficult two part rhythm exercises.  Early in the book the bottom part is a straight metronomic beat while the top gets trickier and trickier, later on both parts vary.  Record these onto CD such that the bottom staff goes only to the left channel and the top only to the right channel.   (I have a duet CD like that.  I can put the balance in the middle and hear what the two parts sound like together, or I can set balance to one side and play against only one part.)  Give the student the CD and do assignments like any other lesson.  They watch the music, and either tap, clap, sing, or play piano as a drone along with the CD.  Probably make them do all of the above.

I think this will work for the slow learner.  I'm not sure anything works for the truly rhythmically challenged.  Don't worry, they will soon drop piano to find their true calling - singing soprano in your church choir! 

[whynot]

Whether it's clapping or metronome, an external beat only helps if the student knows what to do in between the beats.  I start with the smallest increment in the piece or passage and teach the rhythms in reference to that.  "How many sixteenths are in this dotted eighth" etc.  I clap the increment or have them say "tick-tick-tick", whatever's easy to do on a lot of little notes.  They have to account for every little moment in the subdivisions to understand the proportions.  We spend a lot of time on this at the beginning, and most adults see the proportions quickly.  Then we emphasize the next larger increment, then the next one after that etc. so the playing gets smoother and less accented.  This works for me every time.  I'm also sympathetic to the student who responded that it's not always misunderstanding the rhythm, but trying to find the right notes, and that was a good analogy on the foreign language-grammar issue.  We as teachers can do more to help adults be successful right away, really understanding rhythms and making beautiful sounds on the piano. 

[pianonut]

how about having the adult student draw lines straight down on the down beats (in 3/4 or 4/4 or whatever) of each beat.  then they can visually see where the hands play together on those beats.  you can even eliminate what is inbetween at first, and then add it later.  1 and 2 and ...or, i prefer saying the type of note - two-eighths, two-eighths.  then as it gets faster, four-six-teenth-notes (saying them for each divided beat).  i know this is basic and possibly not yet what you are searching for.  but, it's a start.

listening to various tempos is what i was assigned (at lesson) when i was beginning. to be able to listen to a tempo on the metronome and guess if it is largo, moderato, allegro, etc.  when you are shown that the tempos go along with #1 processional walk - as at funeral, wedding #2slow walk(larghetto) #3moderate walk #4fast walk #5 jog #6fast jog #7running #8 sprinting  #9flying and pair them with appropriate tempos (within a week or two - adults should be able to learn most of the basic tempos by this method).

also, assign different tempos of music to students so they are not playing one speed for everything.  this may not seem to have much to do with rhythm, but what it does is IMPROVE it - by having them see that rhythms are moveable and need to be precise as the tempo is speeded up or slowed down.  you can watch something that is kinetic to see a perfect gradual slowing down.

[pianonut]

ps  this may sound silly here, but the kodo drummers are playing at the kimmel center in philadelphia on Sunday March 20th.

also, for anyone who likes to hear a good choir, the temple university singers are singing the following day.  i'm going to hear that one since i can't afford everything.  parking alone is expensive sometimes.

[ted]

Notation is at best a very crude graphical representation of rhythm. It happens to suffice, more or less, for classical music because most of the rhythms there are relatively crude and simple. When I studied the excellent transcriptions of Morton, Waller and Johnson, not to mention the carefully written scores of people like Brubeck and Mary Lou Williams, I came to realise the huge gulf which exists between felt rhythm and printed notation.

I do not see how a feeling for rhythm can be acquired at all by studying notation, clapping, counting, metronomes and so on. I think it can only be acquired through intense listening and experimental playing. Boogie, it seems to me, would be excellent for this purpose because its physical aspect can be made as simple as needed and its rhythmic form is closer to notation than that of many genres.

[BoliverAllmon]

Notation is at best a very crude graphical representation of rhythm. It happens to suffice, more or less, for classical music because most of the rhythms there are relatively crude and simple. When I studied the excellent transcriptions of Morton, Waller and Johnson, not to mention the carefully written scores of people like Brubeck and Mary Lou Williams, I came to realise the huge gulf which exists between felt rhythm and printed notation.

I do not see how a feeling for rhythm can be acquired at all by studying notation, clapping, counting, metronomes and so on. I think it can only be acquired through intense listening and experimental playing. Boogie, it seems to me, would be excellent for this purpose because its physical aspect can be made as simple as needed and its rhythmic form is closer to notation than that of many genres.

that reminds me. I went to a seminar on teaching jazz to younger students. The clinitian was talking that the best way for them to feel jazz is to dance in a jazz fashion. it gets the whole body working and feeling what is going on.

boliver

[pianonut]

if you are a talented jazz musician (and grew up with music all around you) you're right!  you probably wouldn't need to sight read music or rhythm notation.  BUT, if you are a beginning adult who doesn't know anything yet about rhythm, it would be better imo to start at the beginning.  many adults skip over things that they think are unimportant, only to find later that they have to fill in the spots they don't know when put on the spot (ie choir, piano, other instruments)

going to a jazz club probably wouldn't hurt, though.  i think that jazz is great!  in fact, it is very relaxing to hear and puts one in a really musical mindset (extemporizing and improvising)  whether dance, music, art - it's creative.  and, i agree that if you only 'go by the book' you can become stuck on the music (like me) and really not be very good at improvising (i'm terrible).

am studying cadenzas right now (*mozart's). many really great composers didn't even bother to write down some of their extemporizing because it was expected in that day that you would just sit down and play something.  i cannot do this.  i was not taught this method - but am sure it works.  it just takes a lot of patience (as does the other method) and wrong notes.  i admire people who learn by rote very quickly.  they are probably, on the whole, the more musical ones.

[Daevren]

The student should listen to alot of different kinds of music with strange rhythms. Be it jazz, non-western music or modern classical.

This is only the first step. The student will also need to practice, count, clap, do everything with a metronome etc.

[BoliverAllmon]

The student should listen to alot of different kinds of music with strange rhythms. Be it jazz, non-western music or modern classical.

This is only the first step. The student will also need to practice, count, clap, do everything with a metronome etc.

listen to african music. That is extremely rhythmnical.

[Brian Healey]

Just one piece of advice: Don't let counting get in the way of your rhythm.

I can't take credit for that neat little saying (don't remember where I heard it).  I've never really taught a beginner adult, but I remember when my mom starting taking piano lessons a few years ago, and I'd try to give her tips whenever I was home. I remember thinking that she was concerning herself too much with counting and was missing the bigger picture. The goal for reading rhythms is not to become a master counter, but ultimately to internalize the feel of different rhythms.


Peace,
Bri

[timothy42b]

I do not see how a feeling for rhythm can be acquired at all by studying notation, clapping, counting, metronomes and so on. I think it can only be acquired through intense listening and experimental playing.

I think that maybe you are right but for other reasons.

An intellectual understanding of rhythm can be obtained through study, but it does not always result in the feeling that allows you to actually play.

The reason for this, and part of the reason for failure to learn rhythm in general, is that it can only be done in REAL TIME.  (I borrowed a term from computer science.  It is short hand for a very complicated concept.  But maybe you can see what I'm getting at.)  You won't learn to play in good time if you practice at your own pace.  It must be live, it must be reactive, and there must be consequence for failure.  This doesn't have to conflict with principles of practice which say you should go slow enough to practice without error.  It is theoretically possible to do that with a steady though slow tempo - just unlikely.  You're better off going sink or swim at actual tempo to internalize rhythm. 

A progression of playing with a CD, playing duets with a human, and playing gigs with a band would maybe work. 

[Torp]

I was working with my daughter last night on a piece she's learning.  It's her first piece in 3/4 time.  I noticed during this that she had a much better sense of the rhythm when she counted it out loud.  OK, she was also moving her feet, scrunching (is that a word?!) into the seat on every beat, and otherwise moving in whatever way was necessary to keep the rhythm, but it was working.  I started to work with her to try and play the piece without doing any of the aforementioned gyrations and it was significantly more difficult for her.

I realize this is about adults, but if it was easier for a five-year old to keep the beat by utilizing virtually all of her available faculties, the same might be true for an adult.  The problem you might run into with an adult, particularly in a lesson-type environment, may be one of self-consciousness.

Anyway, just a couple of cents worth

Jef

[janice]

For an adult that is "rhythmically challenged" try this--have student take his pulse with one hand.  With the other hand, have them tap out (on their leg or chair, don't play any notes yet).  Then move to the keyboard, but just tap out one note, like middle C.  So they are taking their pulse with one hand, and with the other, they are striking the key "on the beat".  By doing their pulse, they are not trying to match an EXTERNAL sound, but an INTERNAL one.  Then, have them play a scale and match their pulse.  Then, have them play "Mary Had a Little Lamb".  At some point, have them set the metronome to match their pulse.  I think that if they can match the metronome to their pulse, they have made a huge step forward.  From this point on, you can get creative.  Make up your own exercises.

[loveboat9]

rhythm is all in our brain, just how you to catch the format, and tell the different of, to teach adult should know first what the format in her or his brain then give them update, not we have good idea they should accept, so feeling is most important, and find other people's way of feel, and has understanding method to let them format themself, is the best way of teaching

[torchygirl]

My $0.02:

I agree with TimR in that there are two things going on:  developing a rhythmical sense and an intellectual understanding of notation/patterns.

A couple other ideas for developing a rhythmical sense- there are 2 kids' toys on the market that are great for this.  If the adult has kids, there is a reasonable chance that they already exist in the home.  They are:

Bop-It!  - a handheld game which calls out one of 3 commands in a rhythmical fashion.   The commands are "bop it," "twist it" and "pull it".  The device is about 12" long, with a large button in the middle for bopping, an extension to one side for twisting, and a longer extension on the other side with a pull handle at the end.  As the unit calls out the commands, you hang onto the unit, and execute the commands with one hand or the other (both hands need to cooperate).  You get jeered if you don't execute the command in time with the beat.  It's great for coordination and rhythm.  It's pretty cheap and it's fun for most anyone.

DDR:  Dance, Dance Revolution.  This is a game for playstation, xbox, gamecube, and ?  You need a dance mat as your game interface.  This is a maybe 3 x 3 mat, with up, back, right and left arrows on it, as well as some game control buttons.  The software gives you techno dance music (pretty bad stuff IMHO) and a display showing the dance arrows.  The arrows (zero, one or two per "line") scroll up the screen so you can see what's coming, and when they reach the top you need to execute the move with your feet exactly on the beat.  So, standing in the center and with commas delineating the scroll lines, it might go ">, <, <>,  <>."  And you would probably put your right foot on the right arrow, then your left foot on the left arrow, then jump onto both arrows, and again jump onto both arrows.  You need to do this right on the beat of the music (which coincides with the arrow hitting the top line).  Your are rated on how exact you are (Perfect, Very Good, Good, Almost, Boo).  It's challenging.  It's great exercise.   The mats are pretty cheap, but the game consoles are not.

Both these games are great for kids and adults who need a better sense of rhythm or coordination.  They are both somewhat humbling, so they are also good for oversized egos    A search will provide you with pics if you're interested.

Karen

[abell88]

I just got Dance Dance...it never occurred to me that something so fun was also good for me!

[asyncopated]

Hi,

Just some experience with teachning adults rhythm.  My dad is learning to play the guitar and is doing a tango piece.  The piece is set in common time with lots of triplets squeezed in.  For example 4 consecutive triplets in 2 bars. 

So I was trying to get him to feel the triplets, but it seems impossible!  He tries to analyse it and ask, "what is the difference between the triples and 3/4 time?"  I say it's in the rhythm.  The triplet has a slighty more asycopated feel with less emphasis on the down beat.   But I quicky tell him to forget about counting, using a metrenome or analysing -- that it must be felt.

When I start by clapping the rhythm, he does get it and follows, but when I stop, it slowly goes down hill and disintegrates into 3/4 time.  Some times he would get it for 15 mins and stops, and when he tries it the next day, he forgets all about the rhythm.  After about 3 weeks of trying I gave up!

Perhaps I don't really know how to teach rhythm. I don't remember having to learn rhythm.  It seem like I've always had it.  I seem to recall having perfect pitch for a while when I was very young but have lost it.   Maybe one can loose rhythm as well.  Also, maybe it is something that has to be built over time.  What I have noticed is that his rhythm has improved since he first started about 2 years ago.  Then, sometimes, he would miss a whole bar and not notice it, or even just one single beat in the bar!  It sounds just awful to me when he does that, but he does not notice it!  Sometimes that really completely amazes me.

al.
 

[Jessie]

As a teacher, especially working with adults, it is imparitive to know the sound of a rhythmic passage before you can say it. For example, in elementary music, if you were to observe, the teacher would teach the kids rhythm without them knowing. The teacher would use syllables like Ta Ta ti ti Ta (ta being a quarter note and ti an eigth). So how would you apply this to an adult... THE SAME WAY. As painful as it may seem, they need to hear the sound before they can read, say, and execute.
As far as counting rhythm, there are pedogogies that use one syllable or no consistant method of reciting a rhythm. However the brain will have a hard time processing relationships and sounds of rhythmic patterns. Have a consistant syllable method. AND HAVE YOUR STUDENTS PRACTICE IT! Put new material in front of your student every rehearsal and force them to sight read rhythm. Assign rhythmic homework.
There was a post about how pianist are liberal about their rhythmic accuracy and accurate rhythm wasn't a big issue. A musician of any instrument cannot obtain a creative licence until they have the fundimental theory. The performer still needs to have accurate rhythym when practicing to be able to take musical liberties.
If you find your self in a situation where a student cannot keep a steady pulse, invest in a meternome (preferable a Dr. Beat or its substitutes for the subdivision capibilities). If your student is only capible of counting 1..2..3..4.. on the beat, that's fine, it's a start. Slowly introduce other subdivisions and dotted. When they achieve that work on syncopated rhythms.
The point... accurate rhythm is improtant. Sound before notation is a method of learning that anyone can learn. At first this is a slow process, but keep it up! One day all of your efforts as a teacher will pay off.

Email me with any questions Bigtimejessie@hotmail.com