Your reach and your repetoire

[SDL]

I thought an addition to the thread "your reach" would be useful to know which repetoire you've had to skip or work around because of a reach limitation.  I think it would be useful for everyone. 

My friend barely has an 8ve reach in LH and slightly less in the RH (or the other way round!).  She played Ravel P concerto by missing doubled notes out etc.

My reach is comfortable 9th (including 5 note chords) and minor 10ths.  The only distinct problem Ive had is Rachmaninov concerto 2 LH opening chords after the first minor 10th. 

[BoliverAllmon]

I personally have never had to omit anything. I do have a friend who has to have the smallest hands ever. She can barely reach a min. 7th Therefore she only plays single note lines usually.

boliver

[Graf Zahl]

During my last lesson i asked my professor about that. She said that you do not need to have large hands. She made the observation, that students with extreme large hands are having much more trouble playing fast and very small figures or maybe even hitting a octave (they are playing a ninth instead).

There is no need to skip a piece because of a small reach. Bernd Glemser for example plays the cords of the rach2-beginning melodic, not harmonic. There is always another way.

[bachmaninov]

There are ways around problems such as this... I had this problem with Scriabin's Etude No. 12 - The left hand is a hummer! If i recall correctly, i just did a "grace note" kind of thing from the D Sharp to the G Sharp. By the way, the second to last cord in this piece is simply impossible to reach!! 

[SDL]

I have heard this difficulty with large hands.   Im happy with mine (minor 10th - 10th would be perfect).  My teacher teaches someone with a 14th/15th - no kidding! And he isnt a big bloke.  No one seems to believe me on this but its true.  And he doesn't apparently use is all to his advantage - for example he could do legato 8ves with 2,3,4, 5 fingers!

[ted]

I'm pleased I can play straight tenths for stride and swing if I want to. Sometimes I still break many of them for rhythmic effect but it's nice to have the option, especially with Waller, whose pieces sometimes lose their impetus when tenths are broken. The music of Mary Lou Williams sounds better with straight tenths too. On the other hand, I find swing, for example Sefton Daly's "Brief Candles", sounds better to me if most of the tenths are broken in different ways to create left hand phrases either slightly before or slightly after the metre.

[allchopin]

There are ways around problems such as this... I had this problem with Scriabin's Etude No. 12 - The left hand is a hummer! If i recall correctly, i just did a "grace note" kind of thing from the D Sharp to the G Sharp. By the way, the second to last cord in this piece is simply impossible to reach!! 

I was going to bring this up but you beat me to the chase
I just finished this piece and had no problems (I'm lucky I guess) up until that penultimate chord in the left hand that requires at least a 12th.  Maybe in another few years my fingers will grow that extra millimeter needed to really grab the edges of the keys (I'm so close - it's irritating), but I'll be rolling until then.  Why would Scriabin put in such an unreachable chord - to make the piece 'unplayable' for antics? 

[Phillip]

This is an interesting discussion.  I have an average total reach (a tenth) but I  cannot do some chords within the octave that I believe are easy for most people.  For example, towards the end of Debussy's 'Minstrels' appear two consecutive RH chordswithin an octave comprising first (from bottom up) B C# G B, then A C D F# A.  I cannot play either chord without arpeggiating - and I don't have arthritis.  I can get away with this in the context in which the chords appear. 

I have certainly had to lay aside some pieces where stretch limitations within the octave would place me at too great a disacvantage to other pianists.

Phillip

[SDL]

Phillip - that's interesting because Ive a minor 10th at full stretch - less than yourself, but I can play any chord. Even the RH Rach2 chords bottom up c, dflat, f, Aflat, c which I think is a "stretchy chord".  The ones you mention would be very easy for me. I think its the gaps between your fingers that counts the most not thumb to 5th finger stretch.  Im having a look at some Alkan at the moment - some very big chords in the solo concerto, and the grande sonata and most things he does!

[brewtality]

There is no need to skip a piece because of a small reach. Bernd Glemser for example plays the cords of the rach2-beginning melodic, not harmonic. There is always another way.

yep, I've heard ppl do this before and I don't think it sounds good at all.

[Phillip]

I envy your ability SDL.  I think it is the infinite variety of finger lengths and stretches between individual fingers that leads to differences in styles of piano playing, and aptitude for the instrument beyond a certain level (and I suspect the same is even more true of violin playing).  It is reasonable to suppose that child prodigies have very good stretch within the octave.  Someone should perhaps develp an analytical tool for measuring stretch between fingers as a way of determining which instrument an individual is best suited to.

Even in chords I can stretch, I very often have to arpeggiate them to give enough weight to individual notes (especially the top one) within the chord.  This is nothing to do with finger independence - I have done my share of Pischna, Dohnanyi and other finger exercises.

Incidentally, I one went to some piano classes which were attended by someone with really gigantic hands, who could play all the chords in Franck's Prelude Chorale and Fugue without spreading any.  His playing of it was not, in general that delicate I recall.

Phillip

Phillip

[SDL]

Hi Phillip,

you know a 9th is all you need to play the piano.  The excercises (pishna etc) are not helpful for technique.  There is a book on the web that everyone goes on about here which Ive downloaded by Chang, which will give you some insights and probably confirm what you already know.    I mention this because Im wondering from your message if you are doing something that inhibits your stretch when an adjustment would make it ok.  Are your fingers too wide to go between black keys?  You mentioned a D7 chord I think (C d f# C).  For this chord I would play all the notes moving further up so my 3rd finger on f# is about 3/4 way up.  Also another trick is play the c & d with your thumb and play the f# with you 2nd finger.  Sorry if you know this already and Im telling you how to suck eggs.

SDL

[dinosaurtales]

There are ways around problems such as this... I had this problem with Scriabin's Etude No. 12 - The left hand is a hummer! If i recall correctly, i just did a "grace note" kind of thing from the D Sharp to the G Sharp. By the way, the second to last cord in this piece is simply impossible to reach!! 

Sometimes this is acceptable, but other times it just ruins the character of the piece.  Take Prokofiev's Suggestion Diabolique as an example.  Rolling chords in this would be a crime.  I would rahter just pick another piece than ruin one.

[Phillip]

Thanks SDL for your thoughts.  The reason from my stretch limitations within the octave is probably the degree of webbing between the fingers.  One of my early teachers tried to get me to do some stretching exercises to reduce this, but I am sceptical as to whether there is any solution.  However, I get by on most music, and have to deal with the challenges of the difficult chords as best as I can.  Incidentally most such problems arise in accompanying instrumentalists for exams and festivals where I have no choice on the repertoire.

Phillip

[rlefebvr]

I have no reach at all. I  can reach an 8th, that's all. There are ways to play all the notes without the reach however. Sometimes I simply drop a note. There are usually to many anyway.

[nikodr]

About the scriabin (someone wrote something before about him) there are many places in his music,where you CANOT reach the chord even if you have the bigest hand in the world,ALL PIANISTS FOR EXAMPLE play the end of etude op 56 no 4 (last measure last chord),arpegiated,while it has no such sign.So never feel bad if there is a place or two you cant reach.You cant reach it but YOU have to play it arpegio style.(no arpegio sign is there in the edition)

It is like some piano transcriptions for example in stravinskys petroushka transcription in the final movement,it has some notes in the page that cant be played,(small notes),they are there to show you HOW it should ideally sound.You dont play the notes,but you see them.

Think of the etude.The composer would want to hear it complete chord,but there is no human hand that has this stretch in the left hand (though i tried something else and worked, i play gb,db,cb, with 5,3,1 of my left hand, i bow down my head and use my nose a little bit before to strike the f,and i have the stretch to play cb,eb,f,Bb,Eb, with fingers 1,2,3,4,5  in the right hand) (I can easily stretch a 12 with no problems at all).The trick with the nose when i saw it to my teacher she could not stop laughing.The sonority was awful,i mean you do not want to hear the chord as is written it is meant to be played arpegiated.

So do not feel bad,quick rolling is essential skill,(no need to use the nose:)

[SDL]

nikodr - v.funny!  Maybe there could be an invention where they have a tool on their chin that reaches the parts the fingers cannot reach!