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I like Hanon (Read 9166 times)

mikeyg

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I like Hanon
« on: March 12, 2005, 07:56:13 PM »
I've noticed that in this forum there has been a considerable amount of animosity towards Hanon.  While I too, when I first started playing it, disliked it sincerely, and found it to be boring and exhausting, after a month of playing I have found it immensly benificial.  I have more stamina, Power, control and evenness after playing it for only half an hour a day.  And at this point, it isn't really boring because I can think about other things as i play it.  I was wondering how all the other people on this forum got to the level that they are at without Hanon or another technical exercize book in less time than they would have playing Hanon.

piano sheet music of The Virtuoso Pianist Part 1 (1-20)


Offline xvimbi

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #1 on: March 12, 2005, 08:02:28 PM »
I was wondering how all the other people on this forum got to the level that they are at without Hanon or another technical exercize book in less time than they would have playing Hanon.

I believe going through Bach's exercises and studies will achieve the same while building repertoire and musicality at the same time. My major beef with Hanon is that if one follows his instructions, one sets oneself up for injury. "Doing" Hanon without proper instructions is dangerous.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #2 on: March 12, 2005, 08:10:25 PM »


I believe going through Bach's exercises and studies will achieve the same while building repertoire and musicality at the same time. My major beef with Hanon is that if one follows his instructions, one sets oneself up for injury. "Doing" Hanon without proper instructions is dangerous.

I agree Hanon can be both beneficial and dangerous. I also agree that bach can give the same results.

boliver

Offline will

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #3 on: March 13, 2005, 05:09:53 AM »
mikeyg, some questions: (1) how long were you playing piano before you started your Hanon exercises?  (2) Besides Hanon what other musical activities did you undertake in the last month?  (3) Have you noticed that your 'stamina, Power, control and evenness' is evident in your playing of pieces, or just your playing of Hanon?

More comments later.
Regards, Will.

Offline Hmoll

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #4 on: March 13, 2005, 05:39:55 AM »
I can think about other things as i play it.† 

That ain't how to practice.
"I am sitting in the smallest room of my house. I have your review before me. In a moment it will be behind me!" -- Max Reger

Offline faulty_damper

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #5 on: March 13, 2005, 05:57:25 AM »


That ain't how to practice.

Ditto.

Offline kilini

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #6 on: March 13, 2005, 09:02:44 PM »
Hanon builds up physical stamina while you decrease your mental stamina.
That ain't a good trade. Bach increases both.

You are not SUPPOSED to think about other things, dummy.  ;)

Offline bnatural

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #7 on: March 13, 2005, 11:50:51 PM »


I believe going through Bach's exercises and studies will achieve the same while building repertoire and musicality at the same time. My major beef with Hanon is that if one follows his instructions, one sets oneself up for injury. "Doing" Hanon without proper instructions is dangerous.

What is the Bach exercised that you were referring to?
"To tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world"

Offline popdog

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #8 on: March 13, 2005, 11:52:23 PM »
Hey,

I'm new here, but I've played piano for 5 years and I am doing grade 7 AMEB (Australia).  I do Hannon as exercises, but I am interested in the Bach everyone talks about.  What pieces are they? 
Anyway, thanks.  Popdog. 

Offline bernhard

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #9 on: March 14, 2005, 12:17:12 AM »
In progressive order of difficulty:

1. The little book of Anna Magdalena Bach.
2.  The little book of W.F. Bach (Little preludes and fughettas)
3. 2 voice inventions
4. 3 voice inventions.
5. French and English suites.
6. Partitas.
7. Well tempered Clavier
8. Goldberg variations.

(4, 5, 6, and 7 are more or less at the same level)

And since you are at it, have a look at Scarlatti's 555 sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Glissando

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #10 on: March 14, 2005, 05:53:24 PM »
I was wondering how all the other people on this forum got to the level that they are at without Hanon or another technical exercize book in less time than they would have playing Hanon.
I'm around ABRSM grade 8. Got there playing-
Bach.
Bach.
And more Bach.
Did I mention- Bach?
Bach rulz.


Offline jim_24601

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #11 on: March 14, 2005, 06:58:11 PM »
I like beer. But I don't expect it to improve my piano playing. ;)

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #12 on: March 14, 2005, 09:19:16 PM »
1. I was playing for about 2 years before I started Hanon.
2. I learned a Mozart sonant K 332, Chopin nocturne # 11, Chopin Posthumus Waltz, AND BACH INVENTION # 4.  (Note the Bach)
3. I moticed that they increased in my playing of actual songs.

And I don't know about the rest of you, but my mind isn't dull enough, nor do I want it to become dull enough, to play Hanon or all the other crap and think about it.  In the beginning, you are supposed to





















think about each and every note, but once you master the exercise, you can play it almost like a song.  I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be focusing 100% on the notes while playing a piece, and if you do, it will sound like crap.  when I say that I think about other things, I don't mean that I'm doing my Calculus HW, but about the sound of it and how it feels.

Offline 00range

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #13 on: March 15, 2005, 03:17:37 AM »
I like beer. But I don't expect it to improve my piano playing. ;)

Sounds like a wager to me! Grab a six pack and meet me at the Steinway!  ;D
'Science is interesting, and if you don't agree, you can *** off.'

Offline will

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #14 on: March 15, 2005, 07:25:38 AM »
mikeyg: good to hear that your playing not only of Hanon but also of music has improved recently...Though I'm still not convinced that your recent encounter with Hanon is to be  lauded for this improvement!  ;)

My own experiences with Hanon have not been good. I hated playing (or should that be typing) the exercises and my teacher made me follow Hanon's instructions to 'lift your fingers high before playing each note'. The result was not a fluent technique. Although I did improve in playing Hanon my technique become very finger orientated and stress built up as I pushed up the speed of my playing . I also found that as I played Hanon I didn't listen to the sound I produced.
Some time later I changed to a teacher who did not advocate the use of Hanon. Instead I played more pieces and was especially encouraged to listen to the sound I was creating. My technique improved rapidly through this approach.
 
Perhaps you could have a break from Hanon for 2 weeks and use this extra time to practice on your actual pieces. See if you feel a drop off in ability in this time. 2 weeks later begin to play your Hanon again and see if playing ability increases. Repeat this several times...I would be interested to hear of the results. 

Regards, Will.

Offline asyncopated

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #15 on: March 15, 2005, 08:29:16 AM »
Hi,

I've just recently started playing, and have done some Hanon exerecise -- finished the first book and am halfway through the second (stopped at the scales bit).  I suppose it's a good way to get started in the sense that you really don't need to know much about music to do the exercises.  And also for a complete beginner you get satisfaction out of being able to play something fast.

However, I must confess that so far I don't think that Hannon actually improved my technique much.  When playing a passage or notes, out of context of a piece, I don't  really bother much with clarity, evenness, dynamics and touch, although you could make it a rule to try and insert these things artificially, i find that it is easy to forget and just go make some noise.  Also the exercise are boring (come on, you have to admit that), and there is not much satisfaction except perhaps the detrimental hypnotic effect it has on your playing.

Nevertheless, technique is still important -- no denying that.  Without which being able a to excecute a piece beautifully becomes an impossible task.

Quote
I was wondering how all the other people on this forum got to the level that they are at without Hanon or another technical exercise book in less time than they would have playing Hanon.

If you do like the drudgery of Hannon (I can see how that can be fun  :o) try Bernhard's repeated note groups for passages that you are playing.  Particularly on the fast passages.

It is essentially Hanon exercises built for the particular piece.  One of the many reasons why it's a fantastic method is that there is a clear goal.  The piece you are play already sets the context and you should have a clear idea of the sound you want.  So the technique that you learn using repeated note groups is aimed at producing such a sound.  I suppose that is partly what people mean by finding technique in the pieces they play.
 
For example, right now I'm learning Mozart's sonata facile (K545).  With this piece, so far Iíve learnt technique of how to play the C major scale in 4 modes (fancy name for something simple), as well as the ascending D minor melodic.  Also, there are some arpeggios -- C and G chords and some left-hand right-hand coordination with arpeggios in circle of fifths (i think -- need to check).  There is a lot of technique that can be distilled from a piece like this (and there are many such pieces), and so far I've only finished with the exposition (first bit of the first movement). 

So instead of doing Hannon, when I get a new piece, I ask what technical exercises I can create out of this piece, and start by doing these exercises.  These exercises are eventually incorporated into the piece and lets me play it a lot better. 

Now, I'm not sure if I will go back to playing Hannon -- perhaps just to get some ideas for other exercises.

al.


Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #16 on: March 15, 2005, 01:46:31 PM »
In progressive order of difficulty:

1. The little book of Anna Magdalena Bach.
2.  The little book of W.F. Bach (Little preludes and fughettas)
3. 2 voice inventions
4. 3 voice inventions.
5. French and English suites.
6. Partitas.
7. Well tempered Clavier
8. Goldberg variations.

(4, 5, 6, and 7 are more or less at the same level)

And since you are at it, have a look at Scarlatti's 555 sonatas.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


agreed. My teacher talked to me about technique once and he said if you want technique play scarlatti. I asked why and he proceeded to play some sonata of his that was insane. (not the hardest thing in the world,but blew me away that it was scarlatti). when he got through he told me if that isn't technique then I don't know what is.

boliver

Offline IanT

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #17 on: March 15, 2005, 04:58:25 PM »
Hanon builds up physical stamina while you decrease your mental stamina.
That ain't a good trade. Bach increases both.

You are not SUPPOSED to think about other things, dummy.  ;)

I agree 100%  The biggest danger with Hanon and all similar exercises is that they promote mindless playing - fingers go on autopilot and the mind drifts off somewhere else.  Not only is the time spent playing Hanon like this wasted, the attitude that it develops in you can spill over into your other playing.

This reminds me of someone (Kalkbrenner?) who recommended playing scales while reading the newspaper! 

Ian

Offline mosis

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #18 on: March 16, 2005, 03:56:42 AM »

I'm around ABRSM grade 8. Got there playing-
Bach.
Bach.
And more Bach.
Did I mention- Bach?
Bach rulz.



Then what's with the name? ;)

Offline will

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #19 on: March 16, 2005, 04:01:30 AM »
mikeyg: do you like jazz, blues, rock or Latin piano music? If you're answer is yes then I strongly suggest you check out the first fews book shown at http://www.music44.com/X/products/peter%2Bdeneff
Combine your passions! lol  8)


Glissando

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #20 on: March 16, 2005, 04:21:59 AM »


Then what's with the name? ;)

Excellent point! :D

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #21 on: March 16, 2005, 09:20:43 PM »
When I first started playing the piano, I just played pieces.  However, when I started playing the Hanon, I felt as though my skill improved at a more rapid rate than before.  I guess we are all just different.  ;D

Offline Bob

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #22 on: March 17, 2005, 02:22:49 AM »
Sounds like mikeyg is talking about developing technique by focusing on technique.

I jog.  That keeps my body in shape.  It doesn't require much mental effort.

If I play a technical exercise (and have it "in" my fingers already) I don't have to extert mental effort and will develop technique simply from running through the exercise daily.  If I push the limits and allow things to heal up in good shape, my technique improves. 

If do not always have sucess improving technique by working on pieces.  When I work on pieces, I must focus on other things, like interpretation, dealing with the amount of information if I want to play somthing beyond my reading capabilities, etc.

Technique can take time to develop.  Six months doesn't sound unusual to me to see real, solid progress.

I've found I can "erase" the musiciality of a piece for myself if I pound away on it over and over.  This builds technique while learning a piece of music, but destroys the emotions of the music for me.  I need to push the piece in some way, so I work on that.  If it takes a long time, I may never finish the piece and it gets left as something that started off musical and turned into a technique building piece that is never finished. 

Ideally, I would like to have all the technique needed before I start a piece.  Then I can just focus on interpreting the piece, learning the music, and feeling the expression (if it's that type of piece).

I'm not convinced that having your mind disengaged is necessarily bad.  You can build physical technique up without having to use your mind. 

I like the idea of developing exercises from a piece of music.  You can work technique and the piece without drilling the piece the exact same way over and over.  It also makes the piece more flexible since you will expand the piece with different technical "variations."

It sounds like some of the clashes on this thread (and site) are over the following:
Goals for playing -- repertoire development vs. technical development vs. enjoyment, etc.  I think the ultimate goal for most people is to enjoy playing literature.  Technical security is nice too.  Being a musician.  Being viewed as a musician.
The way to attain those goals -- work on literature vs. focus on technique
The individual differences and experiences of everyone.

Technical exercies are nice because you can expect results from them consistently.  Once you have them learned (which probably isn't too difficult considering how transparent some exercises and etudes can be.  Good for sight-reading and instant analysis though.) you can consistently practice and find exactly where your level of technique is.    If your mind is free from controlling yourself physically... and if those exercises are flexible enough that you can control them at a higher level without much mental effort, that sounds good.  You can choose what you focus your mind on while playing exercises like these.  It is nice to develop more technique and focus on something enjoyable, like reading or watching tv (or even listening to music).  But it doesn't necessarily develop your mental abilities in terms of reading music, interpreting a score, sight-reading, or feeling the emotions of a piece of music.  Of course, if you're playing only a few pieces of music for six months, you're not really developing much in terms in terms of interpretation or sight-reading if you're only preparing pieces.

If you play a piece of challenging music with the intent of preparing it and spend six months on that, isn't there a process to it?  Starting off not able to play the piece, having to decipher notes, getting the notes under your fingers...  That's time that you're not developing technique.  Probably not speed if your plucking out notes at first.

It is disturbing to sit down and not have technical abilities you once had.  I return to a technical skill I have done for awhile.  It is uneven rhythmically or dynamically.  Not a nice feeling.

Technical exercises can be extremely dull and boring -- mind numbing.  But, they can also produce results.  Some pieces of music have elements that require leaps in technical development that just aren't going to happen while you're working on that piece.  Technical exercises can smooth these hurdles or prevent a gap like that from being present in the first place if you develop technique bit by bit now for that challening piece in the future.

I don't know what to think.  I'm undecided.  It doesn't seem like focusing too much either way (technique or literature) is a good idea.

Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline march05

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #23 on: March 19, 2005, 10:23:11 AM »
Hey, I guess part 3 of the hanon execises book can be the most difficult pieces ever written for piano, IF you play it with metronome with the aim of playing each piece "presto possible"... Take the scales, for eg, it's not too hard at 120, but at 160, or 200, or faster it gets EXTREMELY (impossibly?) hard to play. Same goes for the arpegio, octaves, tremolo pieces. let me end with a bad joke -

Q: What's next after the Transcendental etudes?
A: Hanon with metronome.

Huh. ;)

Offline paris

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #24 on: March 19, 2005, 10:57:27 AM »
don't you think hanon is a waste of time? there are so much wonderful pieces and etudes to improve tehnique, and musicality, and you can ENJOY playing them. i tried to practise hanon but i felt like machine so i quit  ;D
playing hanon with metronome is difficult, but it's also difficult play every etude with metronome...
all technique i have i get from pieces i play. take a look at la campanella for example. there are 8-9 (or even more) different techniques. you don't have to be able play whole campanella. if you want practise thrills, play part of campanella with those evil thrills.  isn't it better to practise than hanon thrills?
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Offline march05

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #25 on: March 19, 2005, 01:56:09 PM »
hi paris,
yeah i understand what you mean, hanon IS boring, no other way of putting it... :) i haven't opened my hanon book for several months! but honestly if i have to improve my trills within a very short time, then i think it'd be quicker to do that through hanon then campanella, only because the hanon exercise explores all common fingerings for the same trills, and all types of keyboard positions (like black-black, black-white, white-black, white white). the campanella might not manage to cover all that choices, unless like some member have said, we make our own exercises out of the trills portions...

Offline march05

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #26 on: March 19, 2005, 02:22:15 PM »
... And at this point, it isn't really boring because I can think about other things as i play it. 

i missed that quote until now... i do think about other things when playing hanon to build strength, but when playing hanon to gain accuracy or increace speed i try to concentrate on my hand movements to eliminate discomfort etc...

i think liszt and his students recommends practising while reading a book. i remember charles rosen wrote that he too did that. i've never tried that, but that sounds interesting...

Offline xvimbi

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #27 on: March 19, 2005, 03:18:03 PM »
hi paris,
yeah i understand what you mean, hanon IS boring, no other way of putting it... :) i haven't opened my hanon book for several months! but honestly if i have to improve my trills within a very short time, then i think it'd be quicker to do that through hanon then campanella, only because the hanon exercise explores all common fingerings for the same trills, and all types of keyboard positions (like black-black, black-white, white-black, white white). the campanella might not manage to cover all that choices, unless like some member have said, we make our own exercises out of the trills portions...

I think there is a slight misconception here. When one faces a difficult spot in a piece, such as a trill, and then creates an exercise for that (as suggested as a better alternative for Hanon), one ends up having a Hanon exercise. There is no difference.

"Doing Hanon" means something else. It's a synonym for doing technical exercises out of the context of pieces, in a more or less systematic way, with the goal of accumulating technical skills, whether one needs them at the given moment or not. So, occasionally picking a Hanon exercise, or a Czerny, or any other for that matter to solve a particular problem is really not the issue here. In addition, there is nothing special or magical about Hanon exercises. Many other people have compiled similar or even identical ones. If I choose to practice a scale or a trill and use the Hanon book to see how it's done, I am not "doing Hanon" (a scale is a scale is a scale).

It's the underlying idea of the often mindless, repetitive and potentially harmful aspects of doing things in isolation that is the issue. Yes, using Hanon to practice that trill in La Campanella will help me quickly solve that problem, and so does playing through that section over and over again. The difference is that working out the problems in the context of a piece will allow me to play that particular piece, while doing Hanon provides me with a mass of techniques that may or may not come in handy at some point. When those techniques are needed, the likelihood that they have been forgotten by then is high, unless one does Hanon religiously every day.

In the end, I believe, it all evens out. Both approaches will give similar results in the long run. The advantages and disadvantages have been discussed many times, so I won't repeat them. The only thing I am going to say is that the aspect that really convinces me that isolated exercises are "bad" is that they easily lead to injuries, particularly when done without proper supervision. That is too high a risk for me. But then, it's a personal choice.

Offline paris

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #28 on: March 19, 2005, 05:26:54 PM »
hi march05,

when i said this with campanella, of course i didn't mean that you will improve thrills with every finger. it was just for example, because i find it very useful for fingering 4-5.  it is my personal approach, i don't have habit to do technique exercises. when i play through piece, i see difficulties and then take time to solve them.  i don't think that hanon is useless,but for me...
i practised hanon for a while, half hour every day, but i didn't see any improvement, my playing was the same, with and without hanon.


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mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #29 on: March 20, 2005, 04:07:55 AM »
Yes, why should one go and write their own exercises when Hanon has everything anyway? 

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #30 on: March 20, 2005, 08:23:10 PM »
I think I am going to start Czerny School of Finger Dexterity soon.  Any thoughts?

Offline will

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #31 on: March 21, 2005, 03:56:08 AM »
I think I am going to start Czerny School of Finger Dexterity soon.  Any thoughts?
YES - Boring...wished I wasn't made to play this when I was younger...crappy exercises...school, uh I hate schools...how boring...

Offline galonia

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #32 on: March 22, 2005, 04:00:35 AM »
I think I am going to start Czerny School of Finger Dexterity soon. Any thoughts?

I use that - pick the ones that help you overcome current problems - I happened to mutter in one lesson "I hate double thirds" and all of a sudden I found myself going home with a double thirds study out of this Czerny.  :(

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #33 on: March 22, 2005, 05:17:44 PM »
ouch :-X

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #34 on: March 22, 2005, 05:57:04 PM »
Good for you - I also like Hanon. Beringer exercises are also very helpfull as are the Brahms 51. You can spend hours of fun with them if you practice them properly and in the later stages they are very susinct warm up studies - I have to say I nolonger play through them all in one sitting as i did as i was learning them but they make an excellent leadin to practice and are handy for trying out unfamiliar instruments.  Dont be ashamed of seeing merit in these exercises. I have had teachers who shunned exercises and only one who advocated the proper practice of them them and in hindsight the one she was the best teacher i ever had - she had her head screwed on. Illustration its fine having flesh and muscle but without a backbone your a pile of jello ::) Exercises are a good way of finding a backbone (not the only way but a good one) thats why teachers have advocated them for ovr 200 years! :o ;)

Offline bernhard

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #35 on: March 23, 2005, 12:47:22 AM »


I think there is a slight misconception here. When one faces a difficult spot in a piece, such as a trill, and then creates an exercise for that (as suggested as a better alternative for Hanon), one ends up having a Hanon exercise. There is no difference.

It is rare that I disagree with xvimbi (is that a good thing? ;)), but I disagree that there is no difference. There is a huge difference. And the difference is this: when isolating a small section of a piece to do repetitive work, one is not "exercising the fingers", but rather trying to figure out the best set of movements and co-ordinations that will bring the perfect sound for that section. This has of necessity to take into consideration the rest of the piece: the musical context. It demands focus and concentration of a high degree; it demands that one has already figured out what sound one is going after. It demands awareness of the physical sensations of playing so that one may select the most comfortable set of movements.  For instance, one has repeated notes in Schubert, in Scarlatti and in Beethoven,however, they will be played (and need to be practised) very differently.

Hanon has none of that. It is five finger patterns repeated with a (misguided) view to strengthen fingers. It has no context, it demands no intelligence or investigative curiosity. It asks for no aural representation of the sound one is trying to produce. Just lift the finger high and keep everything else motionless. Not only it demands no awareness of the physical sensations of playing, as it positively encourages users to block out such sensations, since they are often of intense fatigue, soreness, pain and discomfort. Hanon trains the player to numb himself to the physicality of piano playing (hence the injuries). It desensitises musical sensibility and dulls intelligent discrimination. Hanon is the antithesis of extracting a small section from a  piece.

Back to your graves, Hanon zombies!!! ;D : ;)

(I agree with the rest of xvimbi's post.  ;))

Best wishes,
Bernhard.



The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #36 on: March 23, 2005, 07:39:48 PM »
How long has the philosophy of "no Hanon" been around?  20, 25 years?  What has it produced except people like Lang Lang?  Where as technical exercises has been aroun forever and has produced people like Liszt, Chopin, and many other truly great pianio players.  If it's good enough for them, then it is certainly good enough for me.

Offline xvimbi

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #37 on: March 23, 2005, 08:22:06 PM »
How long has the philosophy of "no Hanon" been around?  20, 25 years?  What has it produced except people like Lang Lang?  Where as technical exercises has been aroun forever and has produced people like Liszt, Chopin, and many other truly great pianio players.  If it's good enough for them, then it is certainly good enough for me.

You obviously have no clue, so this response is not for you (you're a lost cause), but for those who follow this "discussion."

Do you really believe that since 25 years nobody is using Hanon, and that people like LL play the way they play, because they never used Hanon? I don't even know if that's true that LL never used Hanon. In fact, to me he sounds as if he ONLY used Hanon.

I wonder how in the world pianists were able to play at all before Hanon ::)

Bach, for one, I'm sure was well aware of the possibility to write isolated instructions/exercises for scales, arpeggios, etc. He obviously didn't think it was a good idea. Instead he went to great lengths to include everything he wanted to teach in "real" pieces.

So, similar to your statement: What's good enough for Bach is certainly good enough for me. As it was for Chopin and Liszt. Hanon was born in 1819, Chopin was born in 1810, Liszt was born in 1811; Chopin and Liszt certainly didn't get their technique from Hanon. Furthermore, I would consider Bach a more respectable reference and authority than Hanon. But Bach makes people think. It's much more convenient to apply brute force, because many people don't want to think (others don't seem to be able to.)

Offline The_forgetten

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #38 on: March 23, 2005, 10:16:20 PM »

can anyone tell me why practising hanon is dangerous?? why can someone injured himself by practising it?

Offline xvimbi

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #39 on: March 23, 2005, 10:38:08 PM »

can anyone tell me why practising hanon is dangerous?? why can someone injured himself by practising it?


It is not that practising Hanon per se is dangerous, but doing it wrong.

Fundamentally, any isolated exercise must be approached very cautiously, be it in piano playing, rock climbing, weight lifting or anything else. Deviations from healthy movements are not dangerous when they occur once in a while, but when done hundreds or thousands of times in a short period, injury is likely.

Back to Hanon: there is nothing wrong with it (besides it being incredibly boring), as long as it is done correctly. This means one must not follow the instructions that Hanon himself gives! Particularly, the "lift the fingers as high as possible", especially while other fingers are still pressing down on keys, is very dangerous. Also, most people expect to gain complete independence of all fingers. This is anatomically impossible, but not everybody is aware of that. If you adamantly keep trying to attain indepence for fingers 3-5, you will not only fail, but probably also damage something.

So, if you have a knowledgeable teacher who can teach you the correct motions, and perhaps even more importantly, point out incorrect motions, go ahead. If you don't have such a teacher, by all means, stay away from it.

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #40 on: March 23, 2005, 11:17:23 PM »
xvimbi.  note the fact that I didn't say "Liszt and Chopin played Hanon" but that they played technical exercises.  It is well known that Liszt gave much time to the study of scales, octaves, tremolos, etc., also known as technical exercises. 

and, by the way, being 16 and having incorrect viexs does not necessarily make you a lost cause.

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #41 on: March 23, 2005, 11:18:56 PM »
Not to mention, I have no desire to be a concert pianist, and I have yet to hear "come hear xvimbi, a man from a place he is too ashamed to name, play at Carnegie Hall"

Offline xvimbi

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #42 on: March 23, 2005, 11:44:25 PM »
and, by the way, being 16 and having incorrect viexs does not necessarily make you a lost cause.

Not necessarily. However, you are "a lost cause" for the purpose of this discussion, because you don't seem to be willing to really reflect on opposing views, neither musical nor political. But we shouldn't really be mixing unrelated discussions.

Uttering platitudes like "what's good for them must be good for me" and similar ones scattered among some of your other posts gives me the impression that you are not thinking for yourself and (blindly) follow others without critically asking what the purpose is or how things work. But maybe you really did ponder all the possibilities and did make up our mind. Hard to tell. In any case, you seem to be very much set in your ways (quite surprising for a 16-year old) and you defend your stance with religious vigor, and that's what the discussion about Hanon and other things seems to be turning into: a religious debate.

I have no interest in that.

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #43 on: March 23, 2005, 11:50:22 PM »
Then don't post in them.  Ah, such simple solutions to such complicated problems.

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #44 on: March 24, 2005, 12:29:23 AM »
Not to mention, i thought adolescent's were supposed to be, it anything:
1) stubborn and strong headed
2) ass holes

sorry if I was rude to you.  it was uncalled for.  I can see that you only wnat to help after reading a couple of your other posts.

Offline pianowelsh

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #45 on: March 24, 2005, 01:10:17 PM »
Really! ::) - I prefer to read Hanon and Beringer ex as if they are a Bach urtext. Once youve mastered them (an that frankly isnt hard - a beginner can do it) one has to be able to play them with musical imagination and context - they are a means of developing a palette of sounds without the complex demands made by pieces - this abstract approach to technique or 'pure' technique is a VERY important one and one which to the detrement of many pianists - myself included has been neglected by several generations now of teachers who believe they are 'unmusical' - it is not the excersizes that are unmusical - often im sorry to say it is the student who lacks imagination or appropriate direction. Mozart and Bach spent hours as young musicians honing their fingerwork and 'style' in playing with excersizes and trills (not unlike the ones we have today) - noone would dare to critisise their training as irrelevant or unmusical. People need to grow up to the fact that there is more to the study of technique than the content of the practise. Of course the study of excersies at the beginner and inermed level doesnt negate the need to study in detail form pieces  - but it can train it and make it more efficient and i find it frankly unhelpful when i meet students as i do often who are careless about their fingers because they have been told that studying ex is a 'waste of time'. The BEST way to develop technique is in BOTH 'pure' and 'applied' contexts and this view has prevailed since the beginning of piano pedagogy. there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the study of exercises and for some students they proove very beneficial. The only circumstance i believe in which they are 'no use' is if a student comes with a very lateral approach to technique which is in someway natural to them (rare) - 'if its not broke dont fix it'  - Anyway I think it wouldnt do people harm to have a bit more tolerance for the exercises approach - many pianists on the platform wouldnt be there today if they hadnt practiced them as children ;) :o

Offline Bob

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #46 on: March 26, 2005, 07:26:01 PM »
I agree with pianowelsh -- balance between technique and literature practice.

I think you can do technical exercises for reasons other than literature, too.  Applying theory ideas to the keyboard, for example.

Interesting idea of putting musicality into Hanon pw.
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

mikeyg

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #47 on: March 26, 2005, 09:13:29 PM »
Started czerny, it is much more fun / involved that Hanon

Offline bernhard

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #48 on: March 26, 2005, 10:49:42 PM »

Interesting idea of putting musicality into Hanon pw.

Get the Hal Leonard edition then. It comes with a CD of orchestral accompaniments for you to play along. Hanon as a piano concert! :o ::)

Then all you need to do is to convince your local orchestra to perform it with you. I can see the queues forming already ;D ;D ;D

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: I like Hanon
«Reply #49 on: March 26, 2005, 10:50:53 PM »
Started czerny, it is much more fun / involved that Hanon


Now try Scarlatti sonatas.  ;)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)