I like Hanon

[mikeyg]

In all honesty (maybe because I am young) I actually find the Czerny more interesting than the Scarlatti.   

[bernhard]

In all honesty (maybe because I am young) I actually find the Czerny more interesting than the Scarlatti.   

 
(Bernhard faints)

[mikeyg]

(Bernhard wakes up)
Michael says to him:  "Oh, come on now.  Wasn't that a bit of an overreaction?  It wasn't that shocking a statement.  I like Bach, but Scarlatti is just too boring for my style."

(Bernhard faints again, and under the "do not ressucitate" rule, dies... )

[galonia]

Hahhaaha... mikeyg, I used to hate Scarlatti - no way could anyone convince me to go near that stuff - but I think I wrote somewhere on this forum that I've recently realised it's coz I was one of those horrible children who butchered Scarlatti, so I am slowly learning to appreciate it.

So don't write it off completely and forever, and Bernhard, don't lose hope.

 

[markov]

Before I play everyday I play half an hour of Hanon and Bach combined. (Is that grammatically correct? Lol).  Hanon is more of a finger warm-up for me and Bach gets me into the "zone."



Just my 2 centz

[c18cont]

I am amazed to discover the experts on Hanon it this forum...

As said clearly in another thread, I wonder you don't publish, and make the money that must surely be out there for your ideas, which like much today in  America, suggests that schools are a waste, and you should be doing your own thing on your own by now...learning as you go..(on-the-job training...)....

However, I want to bring to your attention that Hanon, Czerny, Einstein, or Dick Cheney, or any other "expert" is useful only if you can discern the reasons for and against, and I see little real understanding of the purpose of exercises in this thread...Such is difficult without the needed BACKGROUND to make the decisions...and that requires a solid education....

Where is all this going anyway?   John Cont

[gorbee natcase]

I will drink every single last one of you under the table, and still some, any day!

[c18cont]

Itb is who talks the loudest...

But I suggest you not discard your Hanon and Czerny; you may be disapointed

John Cont

[mikeyg]

Holy sh*t, I thought this thread was dead.

Well, I've been playing Hanon ever since I posted this, and I have to say that I am most pleased with the results.

[c18cont]

Sorry Folks,

For heating this up again...I noted some time back it was a hard place to take a stand....

However be aware that I am leaving it alone. It is too much for me; I find the Hanon Haters or out in force here, and I simply am not willing to involve myself in debate with unknown persons with completely unknown objectives....some of it simply based on a desire to argue obscure and even unethical points....

Thats it,,...I'm not posting any more on this subject...I am here to ENJOY this forum...

John Cont

[shiftyoliver]

I actually emailed Roberto Plano on the subject of Hanon and Czerny and asked him if it was a waste of time. He replied back saying Hanon and Czery are not a waste of time. Surely a pianist of his level obviously has merit.

I also have to agree with Bob's post that if one spends to much time on a piece, one can destroy musicality simply by playing the hell out of it. People who over practice a piece tend to loose interest and the emotion is not there. I want to already have acquired the necessary technique for the piece and as Bob said, concentrate on things like interpretation.

[aerlinndan]

I also have to agree with Bob's post that if one spends to much time on a piece, one can destroy musicality simply by playing the hell out of it. People who over practice a piece tend to loose interest and the emotion is not there. I want to already have acquired the necessary technique for the piece and as Bob said, concentrate on things like interpretation.

I structure my technical work so that, while it is indeed extracted from the piece I am working on, the exercises are so concentrated and isolated that it doesn't even seem like I'm working on the piece. In the meantime, I study the score away from the piano. When both of those things are done, the time actually spent learning the piece is very short, and the piece never gets boring or old in the process.

The point is, it is quite possible to learn your technique directly from your pieces and still retain the excitement and emotion for the music. In fact, I find that doing it this way actually increases my eagerness to play the piece, because I have to hold off on putting hands together and playing longer phrases and sections for so long. The process of learning a piece, even a difficult one (or maybe especially a difficult one) is always exciting because I have my goals in sight and I know that whatever I am doing is always bringing me one step closer to that goal.

Bet you can't say that about Hanon!

[bernhard]

I actually emailed Roberto Plano on the subject of Hanon and Czerny and asked him if it was a waste of time. He replied back saying Hanon and Czery are not a waste of time. Surely a pianist of his level obviously has merit.

Way to go Shifty! If Roberto Plano (whoever that is) says it, it must be true! Especially when it is in bold letters! That is enough to convince anyone. 

So, let us see (I took the liberty of boldening the expert statements as this sure is bound to give them even more credence):

1.   Everything that can be invented has been invented.
 Charles H. Duell, Office of Patents, 1899. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.
 
2. There will never be a bigger plane built.
 A Boeing engineer, after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane that carried ten people. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

3.   Ours has been the first, and doubtless to be the last, to visit this profitless locality.
Lt. Joseph Ives after visiting the Grand Canyon in 1861. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

4.   There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.
 Albert Einstein, 1932 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

5.    We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on the way out.
Decca executive, 1962, after turning down the Beatles. Surely the opinion of an expert of his level has merit.

6.    It will be years--not in my time--before a woman will become Prime Minister.
 Margaret Thatcher, 1974 Surely the opinion of an expert of her level has merit.

7.   With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the US market.
 Business Week, August 2, 1968
 Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

8.   Computers may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
Popular Mechanics, 1949 Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

9.   There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
Ken Olson, president of Digital Equipment Corp. 1977 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

10.   This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.
Western Union memo, 1876. Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

11.   No imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?
David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urging investment in the radio in the 1920's. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

12.   Who wants to hear actors talk?
H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

13.   I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper.
Gary Cooper, after turning down the lead role in Gone With The Wind. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

14.   Market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make.
Response to Debbi Fields' idea of Mrs. Fields' Cookies Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

15.   We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.
Hewlett Packard excuse to Steve Jobs, who founded Apple Computers instead. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

16.   I think there's a world market for about five computers.
Thomas J. Watson, chairman of the board of IBM. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

17.   The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.
Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project. Surely the opinion of an expert of his level has merit.

18.   Airplanes are interesting toys, but they are of no military value whatsoever.
Marechal Ferdinand Fock, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

19.   Stocks have reached a permanently high plateau.
Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

20.   No matter what happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping.
U.S. Secretary of Navy, December 4, 1941 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

21.   While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
Lee DeForest, inventor Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

22.   Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.
William Thomson, Lord Kelvin English scientist, 1899 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

 

Surely 100 000 lemings cannot be wrong, right?

Should I go on? Nah. I better go and practice some Hanon unless some – as yet unnamed – horrible consequence accrues.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

 

[greyrune]

lol, as ever Berhard you come out with some damned funny things there, and illustrating a point too, how do you do it?

You got to love number 6, good old iron lady.

As for Hanon well i think it may well have made my fingers a bit stronger in the time i used it, however i now have a problem with my wrist and can't play for a while, whether the two are connected i have no idea but one did follow after the other.

[omnisis]

My teacher says that playing the piano has a lot more in common with figure skating or ballet than with "typist type" skills.  The hanon exercises seem to stress the latter w/o regard to the former, which I think is its downfall.  However I have made gains in finger strength and independence by doing some Hanon.  In this reguard I find them useful. 

I could see getting the same results from exercise based on your repetoire but, and I think this is a *BIG* but, you have to be the kind of person who is organized and can design exercises for himself and then do those exercises dilligently.  Just saying, "Hanon is useless" and not designing exercises or trying to come up with ways to diagnose your own technique problems is not the answer.  Techinque exercises are useful and there is no exscaping the fact that you have to do something several times until it is like second nature.  Whether this means playing the same 2-bar pattern 1000 times or doing an excercise from Hanon, Czerny, etc.  It all amounts to the same thing.  The important thing is that a) you don't neglect technique and b) you find ways to make things that seem hard to play now easy because ultimately "ease in playing" is probably the most accurate measure of "good technique".   IMHO anyway.....;-)

~omnisis

[Dazzer]

HANON CONCERTI@!?!?!? WOW!!!!

I'll have no choice but to devote my entire life to the performance of such great works. haha

[kilini]

Actually, Roberto Plano is an Italian pianist who won First Prize at the Cleveland International Piano Competition in 2001 and was Third Laureate of the 2003 Honens International Piano Competition.

Well, I plan on doing tons of exercises, including Hanon, since I have about no foundation and a pile of bad habits.

[c18cont]

 

John

[xvimbi]

I actually emailed Roberto Plano on the subject of Hanon and Czerny and asked him if it was a waste of time. He replied back saying Hanon and Czery are not a waste of time. Surely a pianist of his level obviously has merit.

Just to clarify what we mean with "waste of time":

Doing Hanon will help acquiring technique. Technique is required for playing repertoire (i.e. pieces that one actually would like to perform). Because technique is inherent in repertoire pieces, technique can therefore be acquired by playing repertoire pieces. In general, playing any kind of music will help acquire/hone technique.

With "waste of time", we don't mean "complete waste of time", only that we think there are "better" alternatives; "better" in the sense of more efficient and more complete. Hanon and Czerny are not the only set of excercises around. Specifically, IMHO, Bach's exercises/studies (see below) offer practically everything that Hanon has to offer. But in addition, Bach's pieces offer a lot of things that Hanon does not offer. Bach's pieces, for example, give a comprehensive introduction into musical aspects (form and structure), so they hone musicality in general, and - most importantly - they are pieces that one can actually perform.

There are a couple of downsides: First, repertoire pieces are much more difficult to memorize and analyze. It is a lot easier to do some fairly simply structured exercises and see immediate benefits from them. Second, because many more musical concepts are incorporated into pieces, getting a particular aspect up to high level will take a lot more time.

So, here are two scenarios:
a) do Hanon for two years, then play pieces for two years
b) do Bach/Scarlatti/Chopin etudes/etc. for four years

In the end, one will probably have very similar technical skills, but scenario 2) has the advantage that one will be a more rounded musician with a lot more pieces in one's repertoire. That is why Hanon is a waste of time (to some extent)

In other words: Hanon will give immediate results, and that is what is so appealing about it. But, IMO, it is an illusion. Playing pieces is a long-term investment, but it will pay off big time in the end.

Actually, Roberto Plano is an Italian pianist who won First Prize at the Cleveland International Piano Competition in 2001 and was Third Laureate of the 2003 Honens International Piano Competition.

Rachmaninoff was quite good too and advocated doing Hanon. Hamelin also doesn't have a bad technique, and he is not doing any exercizes (except for playing scales every once in a while). It is easy to find famous supporters for any stance, but it is not easy to find people who actually lay out the reasons for their stances.

Well, I plan on doing tons of exercises, including Hanon, since I have about no foundation and a pile of bad habits.

Great! Don't forget these exercises/etudes:

1. Bach - The little book of Anna Magdalena Bach.
2. Bach - The little book of W.F. Bach (Little preludes and fughettas)
3. Bach - 2 voice inventions
4. Bach - 3 voice inventions.
5. Bach - French and English suites.
6. Bach - Partitas.
7. Bach - Well Tempered Clavier
(8. Bach - Goldberg variations)

[Dazzer]

Please refer to my post regarding this topic.

https://www.pianostreet.com/smf/index.php/topic,9104.new.html#new

Dazzer

[abell88]

Computers may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
Popular Mechanics, 1949 Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

Umm...Bernhard...are you saying your computer weighs more than 1.5 tons? 

[bernhard]

Umm...Bernhard...are you saying your computer weighs more than 1.5 tons? 

Er... No.

Popular Mechanics is saying your computer wieghs more than 1.5 tons.

And since Popular Mechanics is a recognised authority on the subject, you better accept it. Don't even think of weighing it to check if it's true. The word of an expert surely has far more weight than any hard fact, and you should not dream of challenging it

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[shiftyoliver]

Way to go Shifty! If Roberto Plano (whoever that is) says it, it must be true! Especially when it is in bold letters! That is enough to convince anyone. 

So, let us see (I took the liberty of boldening the expert statements as this sure is bound to give them even more credence):

1.   Everything that can be invented has been invented.
 Charles H. Duell, Office of Patents, 1899. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.
 
2. There will never be a bigger plane built.
 A Boeing engineer, after the first flight of the 247, a twin engine plane that carried ten people. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

3.   Ours has been the first, and doubtless to be the last, to visit this profitless locality.
Lt. Joseph Ives after visiting the Grand Canyon in 1861. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

4.   There is not the slightest indication that nuclear energy will ever be obtainable. It would mean that the atom would have to be shattered at will.
 Albert Einstein, 1932 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

5.    We don't like their sound. Groups of guitars are on the way out.
Decca executive, 1962, after turning down the Beatles. Surely the opinion of an expert of his level has merit.

6.    It will be years--not in my time--before a woman will become Prime Minister.
 Margaret Thatcher, 1974 Surely the opinion of an expert of her level has merit.

7.   With over 50 foreign cars already on sale here, the Japanese auto industry isn't likely to carve out a big slice of the US market.
 Business Week, August 2, 1968
 Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

8.   Computers may weigh no more than 1.5 tons.
Popular Mechanics, 1949 Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

9.   There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
Ken Olson, president of Digital Equipment Corp. 1977 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

10.   This 'telephone' has too many shortcomings to be seriously considered as a means of communication.
Western Union memo, 1876. Surely the opinion of an expert of their level has merit.

11.   No imaginable commercial value. Who would pay for a message sent to nobody in particular?
David Sarnoff's associates in response to his urging investment in the radio in the 1920's. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

12.   Who wants to hear actors talk?
H.M. Warner, Warner Brothers, 1927. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

13.   I'm just glad it'll be Clark Gable who's falling on his face and not Gary Cooper.
Gary Cooper, after turning down the lead role in Gone With The Wind. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

14.   Market research reports say America likes crispy cookies, not soft and chewy cookies like you make.
Response to Debbi Fields' idea of Mrs. Fields' Cookies Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

15.   We don't need you. You haven't got through college yet.
Hewlett Packard excuse to Steve Jobs, who founded Apple Computers instead. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

16.   I think there's a world market for about five computers.
Thomas J. Watson, chairman of the board of IBM. Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

17.   The bomb will never go off. I speak as an expert in explosives.
Admiral William Leahy, U.S. Atomic Bomb Project. Surely the opinion of an expert of his level has merit.

18.   Airplanes are interesting toys, but they are of no military value whatsoever.
Marechal Ferdinand Fock, Professor of Strategy, Ecole Superieure de Guerre Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

19.   Stocks have reached a permanently high plateau.
Irving Fisher, Professor of Economics, Yale University, 1929 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

20.   No matter what happens, the U.S. Navy is not going to be caught napping.
U.S. Secretary of Navy, December 4, 1941 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

21.   While theoretically and technically television may be feasible, commercially and financially it is an impossibility.
Lee DeForest, inventor Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

22.   Radio has no future. Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible. X-rays will prove to be a hoax.
William Thomson, Lord Kelvin English scientist, 1899 Surely the opinion of an expert of this level has merit.

 

Surely 100 000 lemings cannot be wrong, right?

Should I go on? Nah. I better go and practice some Hanon unless some – as yet unnamed – horrible consequence accrues.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I don't know Bernhard, but it seems all you did was just quote people who made false assumptions. Roberto Plano did not give an assumption, he gave a statement and it obviously did work for him.

Besides, a finalist in the Van Cliburn and as Kilini said he is an Italian pianist who won First Prize at the Cleveland International Piano Competition in 2001 and was Third Laureate of the 2003 Honens International Piano Competition. So I'm sure he does know what he is talking about and that Hanon or Czerny has helped him to be where he is now.

Xvimbi, I can see what you mean by Hanon and Czerny giving immediate results and that's what I like about. If I start a piece by Bach, I not only have to worry about technique, but also interpretation, articulation, tone etc... And I don't want to worry about all that. I just want to do exercises where I can acquire technique necessary for most pieces. Besides, I believe I feel more of an accomplishment if I spend less time on a piece because I've already acquired the technique necessary for it instead of spending more time on a piece trying to figure everything out.

P.S. Liszt piano technique teacher was Czerny so I bet he probably made Liszt do tons of his exercises. So I guess that also means Liszt exercises are not as good as Bach either?

[xvimbi]

Besides, a finalist in the Van Cliburn and as Kilini said he is an Italian pianist who won First Prize at the Cleveland International Piano Competition in 2001 and was Third Laureate of the 2003 Honens International Piano Competition. So I'm sure he does know what he is talking about and that Hanon or Czerny has helped him to be where he is now.

Neither Bernhard's nor your argumentation is really useful. Case in point:

Plano is a good pianists. Hamelin is better. Hamelin doesn't do exercises. Therefore, do not do exercises.

This reasoning is just as valid, but also just as useless.

Rachmaninoff recommended exercises. But he also suffered extremely from injuries. Are the two connected? I don't know, but the risk is too high.

I remember a great joke along those lines:

A farmer mentions to a neighboring farmer that his horse was very sick. The neighbor said "Oh, yes, my horse had that too". "Oh really", said the farmer, "what did you do?". "Oh, I gave it acetone to drink". "Oh great! I'll do that too" says the farmer, goes home and forces acetone down the horse's throat. The horse instantly dropped dead. Besides himself, the farmer runs to his neighbor and yells at him "I did what you told me, and my horse dropped dead!". "Yep", said the neighbor, "So did mine."

I don't think I have to explain the moral of this story.

Xvimbi, I can see what you mean by Hanon and Czerny giving immediate results and that's what I like about. If I start a piece by Bach, I not only have to worry about technique, but also interpretation, articulation, tone etc... And I don't want to worry about all that. I just want to do exercises where I can acquire technique necessary for most pieces. Besides, I believe I feel more of an accomplishment if I spend less time on a piece because I've already acquired the technique necessary for it instead of spending more time on a piece trying to figure everything out.

Exercises do indeed give a good sense of accomplishment. After playing through Hanon in one hour, one can say "I played through Hanon. Now I can have ice cream". After working on a Bach invention for an hour, it is not quite so clear what the accomplishment is. However, as I pointed out above, I think Hanon's instant gratification is an illusion. It is still much more useful in the long run to just buckle down and go through pieces, rather than technical exercises. However, most people don't have this kind of patience and discipline.

I don't say one should abandon all types of exercises. For those spots where I myself have trouble, I devise my own Hanon-style exercises, i.e. up and down the keyboard, forward and reverse, rhythmic variations, chord attack, you name it. The big difference is that these exercises solve an actual problem in a musical context, whereas one can never really know if a Hanon exercise will come in handy at some point or not.

Hanon is like a rock-climber going to the gym, doing pull-ups using each finger in turn.
Czerny and Liszt is like a rock-climber going to the gym tackling a concrete wall.
Real pieces is like a rock-climber going to the mountains and soaking it all in.

[Torp]

If I start a piece by Bach, I not only have to worry about technique, but also interpretation, articulation, tone etc... And I don't want to worry about all that.

At what point DO you start to worry about all that?  The technique required to interpret, articulate, generate proper tone, etc. is completely dependent on those very same things.  If you work on technique which is completely devoid of everything that makes music 'music,' then what exactly is the purpose of acquiring a technique that has no musical value?

[aerlinndan]

Xvimbi, I can see what you mean by Hanon and Czerny giving immediate results and that's what I like about. If I start a piece by Bach, I not only have to worry about technique, but also interpretation, articulation, tone etc... And I don't want to worry about all that. I just want to do exercises where I can acquire technique necessary for most pieces. Besides, I believe I feel more of an accomplishment if I spend less time on a piece because I've already acquired the technique necessary for it instead of spending more time on a piece trying to figure everything out.

I don't know about you but I feel as if I have accomplished a lot more by working an hour on Bach's Two-Part Inventions than different Hanon exercises. I can indeed after an hour say that I have done an hour of Hanon, but what of what I have just acquired (if I have indeed acquired anything at all)? It seems sometimes as if it all just goes up into the air and floats away, never to surface or make any meaningful difference in my repertoire. On the other hand, when I play Bach for an hour, I work on technique, articulation, phrasing, musical concept, and everything else that actually matters when playing the repertoire. I feel like the skill I gain in this hour much more directly affects my playing of future repertoire than any Hanon.

[omnisis]

Pulled from https://www.music.qub.ac.uk/~tomita/essay/inventions.html

Johann Nikolaus Forkel (1749–1818), Bach's first biographer who obtained the information directly from two eldest sons, Friedemann and Emanuel, gives us the following account about Bach's method of teaching: 'the first thing he did was to teach his pupils his peculiar manner of touching the instrument. For this purpose, he made them practice, for months together, nothing but isolated exercises for all the fingers of both hands, with constant regard to this clear and clean touch. For some months, none could get excused from these exercises; and, according to his firm opinion, they ought to be continued, for from six to twelve months. But if he found that anyone, after some months of practice, began to lose patience, he was so obliging as to write little connected pieces, in which those exercises were combined together. Of this kind are the six little preludes (BWV 933–938) and still more the Inventions.'

Apparently even Bach believed in technical exercises...


~pianocliff

[xvimbi]

Pulled from https://www.music.qub.ac.uk/~tomita/essay/inventions.html
Apparently even Bach believed in technical exercises...

Yes, but as stated in this very paragraph, he eventually came to his senses, and that's when he wrote all these Preludes, Fugues, Inventions, etc.

[holysentiment]

I think, practising 'Hanon' is such a waste of time.
I would rather practice my pieces for finger exercise...
cuz I never gonna play Hanon on the stage but the pieces..

[dorjuanhoop]

I've been playing the Hanon exercises for a almost a year and have just recently begun book 2 (beginning with lesson 21).  My teacher recommended that I begin the Hanon exercises because my hands seemed very stiff.  I can see a vast improvement in the flexibility, strength, and span of my fingers.  I've been delighted recently, too, to find that my grace notes and trills have improved tremendously as a result of those specific Hanon exercises.  And, like you, I don't think too much about the notes, just getting my fingers to move as quickly and correctly as possible.  I know what exactly you meant, so don't worry about those comments.  Keep up the Hanon because it works!

[barbosa-piano]

 Hanon is a good solution to simple technical problems, when added with other exercises, and it is also a good warm up, I have no problems with it.