Chopin Waltz no. 17

[chopinisque]

Regarding the above, there is an accidental at the start of bar 35.  According to Alfred's it should be played 3-4-3.  However, the preceding note is played using 2.  Do I pass the third finger under, over, leap or is there another way to do it without crossing your hand?

Also, while I'm at it, are you sure waltz no. 18 is for grades 4-5?  It looks much too hard for that level with its octave leaps.

[Hmoll]

What's the opus # of this?

[Black_Key]

I'm going to post the answer to your first question in a few minutes, but first I have to clarify the numbering of the waltzes in your second question. (Please excuse the long-winded reply)

Eight waltzes were published during Chopin's lifetime (Opp. 18-64). Posthumously, five more were published by Julian Fontana (Opp. 69-70). After this, manuscripts have been  found and published without opus numbers and seven have been published so far. With  The Alfred edition numbers it's waltzes a little differently than the standard order most are used to. To be honest, there really is no standard order for the posthumous waltzes, but this is the order I believe is most common:

|Post. waltz  key| |"Standard" order| |Alfred order|
Waltz in e-.............14..........................16
Waltz in E..............15..........................15
Waltz in Ab............16..........................14
Waltz in Eb............17..........................18       
Waltz in Eb(Sost.)....18..........................19
Waltz in a-.............19..........................17
Waltz in f#-............20..........................N/A*
(*=The seventh published waltz is in f#- and is not in this edition. A recording and sheetmusic are available at the Piano Society).
         
So when you ask if waltz 18 is really a 4-5 grade level, it is not. The last waltz in your edition is the one that is level 4-5; the waltz you were actually referring to is undoubtedly more difficult (the fact that the pieces are in the same key doesn't make matters easier ). I hope that clears the confusion of the waltz numbers and difficulty. I'm going to answer your original question in a later post.

[Black_Key]

Ok, for your first question: I wouldn't suggest the written fingering. If you're quick enough, it's possible to make the break almost seamless, but I'm not that quick and I just don't like the fingering . Instead of using 3-4-3, I'd use 1-4-3 in measure 35 and 3-4-3 in measure 36. Keep in mind that most fingerings are suggested and not necessarily a hard and fast rule. Feel free to try fingering methods out on your own.

I hope that helps.

[chopinisque]

For the first question, thanks Black-Key.

And for the second...  but Bernhard's list doesn't have no. 20 and all the waltzes are in the correct key.  As in...

14. A flat major
16. E minor

I'm confused.

[chopinisque]

Okay.  Bernhard, it's your list so could you please help sort this out?  Please?

Grade 4/5:

No. 17 (Am)
No. 18 (Eb)

Grade 6:

No. 3 (Am, Op. 34 no. 2)
No. 10 (Bm, Op. Posth. 69 no. 2)
No. 12 (Fm, Op. Posth. 70 no. 2)
No. 14 (Ab)
No. 15 (E)

Grade 7:

No. 6 (Db, Op. 64 no. 1)
No. 7 (C#m, Op. 64 no. 2)
No. 8 (Ab, Op. 64 no. 3)
No. 9 (Ab, Op. Posth. 69 no. 1)
No. 13 (Db, Op. Posth. 70 no. 3)

Grade 8:

No. 1 (Eb, op. 18 )
No. 4 (F, Op. 34 no. 3)
No. 16 (Em)
No. 19 (Eb)

Grade 8+:

No. 2 (Ab, Op. 34 no. 1)
No. 5 (Ab, Op. 42)
No. 11 (Gb Op. Posth. 70 no. 1)

1.  Which Eb is 18 and which is 19?

2.  Is your numbering according to Alfred's or the standard order?  The keys indicate Alfred's but the no. 18 and 19 mixup indicates standard order.

3.  What's the difficulty of no. 20 in F#? 

Thanks.  All this is giving me a headache.

[Black_Key]

Hmm...I seem to have created more problems than solutions! Sorry!

I think it's best to ignore the list I had made earlier and realize that the 18 in Bernhard's list is 19 in Alfred's list. The two are switched.

 As I said, there really is no standard list and I guess the order I am familiar with isn't as common as I thought. Sorry for the confusion. 

[bernhard]

I am afraid Black key is right: There is no standard list for the recently (as late as 1955) discovered Chopin’s waltzes.

Eight waltzes were published during Chopin's lifetime (Opp. 18-64). Posthumously, five more were published by Julian Fontana (Opp. 69-70). After this, manuscripts have been  found and published without opus numbers and seven have been published so far. With  The Alfred edition numbers it's waltzes a little differently than the standard order most are used to. To be honest, there really is no standard order for the posthumous waltzes, but this is the order I believe is most common:

|Post. waltz  key| |"Standard" order| |Alfred order|
Waltz in e-.............14..........................16
Waltz in E..............15..........................15
Waltz in Ab............16..........................14
Waltz in Eb............17..........................18       
Waltz in Eb(Sost.)....18..........................19
Waltz in a-.............19..........................17
Waltz in f#-............20..........................N/A*
(*=The seventh published waltz is in f#- and is not in this edition. A recording and sheetmusic are available at the Piano Society).

         

This is correct.

Most editions (well until the1980s) published only 14 waltzes.  The Henle edition now publishes 19 waltzes and the Paderewski edition 17 waltzes, arguably the two most authoritative editions. 

I am using is the ordering in the Henle edition – which incidentally is the same ordering used by Vladimir Ashkenazy in his recording of the complete Chopin works for solo piano for Decca. This is not to say that either Henle or Ashkenazy have the last word on ordering, but since I often refer to this CD, it makes sense to use the same ordering. In any case this is really a non-problem since as long as one specifies the key and opus number (when available) one knows which waltz one is talking about, and there should be no problem.  I am not familiar with the Alfred edition.

But if you would like to be further confused, contemplate this:

1.   Henle gives two different versions for four of the waltzes published posthumously: (op. 69 no. 1 and 2 and Op. 70 no. 1 and 2): one version is the one published by Fontana after Chopin’s death, and the other version is the original Chopin autograph. So which version are you going to play?

2.   Paderewski, likewise gives two versions of op, 69 no 1 and 2 and op. 70 no. 2, but not of op. 70 no1.

3.   There are in fact several versions of op. 69 no. 1 around. [Have a look at: Herbert Weinstock “Chopin, the Man and His Music” – (Knopf) – pp. 296 – 299 for a comparison of the several versions if this interests you]. If you would like to hear the autograph versions (as opposed to the usual Fontana version) of Op. 69 no. 1 and Op. 70 no. 2, see if you can get Peter Katin’s recording of the waltzes for Decca.

4.   Henle publishes 19 waltzes in all (following the order I have followed). Number 19 (Eb major) may not be by Chopin. The debate is still raging.

5.   Paderewski publishes 17 waltzes in all [it does not include  no. 17 in Am and no. 18 in Eb]. Its ordering is slightly differnt again from Henle [no. 14 (Ab) on Henle is no. 16 (Ab) on the Paderewski, and no. 16 (Em) on Henle is No. 14 (Em) on Paderewski]

Waltz no. 20 in F#m does not appear in any “serious” edition of Chopin since it has been accepted by most researchers that is not by Chopin at all.

Personally I think this all Editorial marketing. “Buy my edition! It includes a recently discovered waltz by Chopin, and besides you can have the original autograph edition!” “Get my CD! It has a hitherto undiscovered new rendering of such and such waltz!” You get the idea.

Now to answer your questions:

1.   Which Eb is 18 and which is 19?

Both. Both waltzes (18 and 19) are written in Eb major. No. 18 is the one nicknamed “sostenuto”.

2.  Is your numbering according to Alfred's or the standard order?  The keys indicate Alfred's but the no. 18 and 19 mixup indicates standard order.

As Black key said, there is no standard order. I am following Henle’s edition ordering (and Ashkenazy’s recording for Decca).

3.  What's the difficulty of no. 20 in F#? 

Around grade 4/5. This is a most beautiful piece. Don’t let doubts about its authenticity stop you from playing it. So what, if it is not by Chopin? It is still very nice (and it sounds far more difficult than it actually is).

Good luck!

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[chopinisque]

Thanks for clearing that up.

Do any of you think it is worth fretting over which version you use (as long as it's not Schirmer's)?