the tried and true road to the chopets

[BoliverAllmon]

After reading all of the chopin etude threads I have this question. What would the steps be if you were teaching an absolute beginner until that student plays a chopet?

[lostinidlewonder]

I've had students do it through Czerny School of Veloxity and Book of Dexterity, and also through the 48 Preludes and Fugues from Bach.  Either way is good from my experience however learning from both is best. Which ones to do you chose based on what needs to be targeted technically in the students needs. I would say lean more towards Czerny if you are Chopin Etude aimed. I say this only because I have taught one student who only ever played Czerny until i handed him a Chopin etude which he played through like nothing. Also a mate from Paris who grew up on Czerny then went straight to Chopin Etudes as his first encounter with Chopin. So I would tend towards learning all the finger speed Czerny teaches that will take alot of pressure off that Chopin etudes demands, but find detailed structure of music through Bachs Preludes and Fugues, that is something Czerny lacks imo.

[steinwayguy]

After reading all of the chopin etude threads I have this question. What would the steps be if you were teaching an absolute beginner until that student plays a chopet?

Just play a damned Chopin Etude. Czerny is absolute mind-numbing bullxxxx.

[zalmanesd]

welll i don't think there can be a tried or true road to the chopin etudes.  varies per person. 

[BoliverAllmon]

Just play a damned Chopin Etude. Czerny is absolute mind-numbing bullxxxx.

not me you damn moron. I am talking about a beginner. a beginner doesn't know where middle c is and cant even touch a chopet.

[Torp]

BoliverAllmon,

I asked a similar question regarding Beethoven's Pathetique.  Here are the thoughts about the process that I've come up with so far:

1) You would need to identify what the specific technical difficulty is for the Etude(s) in question. (any piece for that matter)
2) You would need to find piano pieces in progressive order of difficulty that contain the technical difficulties identified in step 1. (I prefer to think in terms of pieces that I could continue to play even after I've passed the particular level they come from.)
3) Teach/learn the pieces identified in step 2 in their progressive order.

The problem I am having is with step 2.  It is quite easy to find progressive repertoire, but not so easy to know what technique each piece requires without having played it or seen it.  With so much repertoire out there it could take a lifetime of research not to mention the effect on your wallet if you bought all that music.

An option for you in the meantime (while waiting for responses) is to narrow your thought process down to one etude.  Pick one, then follow the steps above based on your own experience and repertoire knowledge.  It's a start!

Don't know if this was a help or a hindrance.  I think your question is a very valid one.  You may want to search through some of Bernhard's posts too.  I seem to recall when I was researching the graded pieces on the forum that he had put together a "plan" for someone to play a chopin piece.  My memory could be wrong, but it was something like that. (maybe he'll pipe in here, he seems to have the links to all his pertinent posts )

Jef

PS - Obviously, if you're dealing with a complete beginner, learning the notes of the piano would probably come before all of the aforementioned stuff!!

[pianowelsh]

everyone will approach differently - i have to say i dislike a standard method for every student. One logical approach would involve finger excersizes, some Bach preludes and fugues and some Mozart and i would suggest perhaps some of the nocturnes and preludes - which contain alot of the same techniques in less overt form. You could equally well go a czerny/cramer/bertini route if you so wished but i feel i would for the average (again a term im not happy with) student do a combination of approaches so that they get a balanced and interesting programme of study. Ideally i believe they should be able to present a little recital prog each year to show a piece of each major era (NO MATTER HOW SIMPLE) and if appropriate one of these could be an etude. I have to say unless the circumstances were Very exceptinal i wouldnt start anyone with an etude of chopin (or indeed anyone else). I would also be inclined to begin with the texturally more simple etudes which tend in the main to be slower (exception op25/12) which is straightforward musically if not actually easy. However this would depend on the students apptitude at picking up cross-rhythms and how they handle speed in the preludes and nocturnes. I should make it quite clear that i would not expect a fully polished performance of a students first Chopin etude (it would essentially be a learning process) we come back to the etude later after weve learnt a few more to put the polish on as they do get easier the more you play and you need an enculturation period.

[sznitzeln]

I am beginning my study of chopets... this was my strange road:

Some scales and easy pieces for 2 years. 1 czerny study. Then pathetique first movement with poor guidance, probably played like sh*t
Lots of different pieces but all of them much much much easier than chopets.
Chopin fanatasie impromptu.
Beethoven sonata #18 , second movement
Rachmaninov c-sharp minor and g-minor (dont remember if chopin was before this).
I think I played all of these pieces like crap by the way
Then after chaning teachers, Mozart K330, Mozart K332 (exposition of third movement)
Mozart piano concerto #21 first movement, still have some work on that one.
Some hanon, maybe 2 weeks
Bach invention #13
Bach c-minor prelude book 1.
Now I am beginning op 10. nr 1.

[SDL]

not me you *** moron. I am talking about a beginner. a beginner doesn't know where middle c is and cant even touch a chopet.

why would you get a beginner to play chopin etudes!!  Its sounds like you mean REAL beginners the way you say they cant find middle C.  Just not clear watcha mean!  Are you a beginner boliver - is this for you?

[i_m_robot]

divide it into sections

go through it slowly

practice the hell out of it

[musik_man]

I don't think a beginner should even be thinking about the Chopin etudes.  It's going to be years before he can even pull it off.  Why not focus on getting some easier pieces down?  In a few years when he's progressed he can start thinking about which etude he wants to learn.

Also, I wouldn't let them learn pieces that progressively develop the technique required for a specific etude.  If they're an absolute beginner, it does them no good to learn how to do blindingly fast arpeggios if they can't do octaves or scales at a moderate speed.  It's important that they get a well rounded technique.

[sznitzeln]

I think koji stated that if he would have a talented student beginning from scratch, he would make him or her study all chopets (but in slow tempi)

[rlefebvr]

First of all, giving anything by Chopin to someone who can't find middle C is utterly stupid.


Czerny is certainly a way lots of people go about before learning a Chopin Etude.
I am not saying that is the best way in any way.

Learning Bach WTC is also a great way, but this is no way near beginner level either.

In fact there are many other worries at this level that need to be addressed before even thinking about Chopin.

A better question would be ...How does one best prepare to play a Chopin Etude, when one is not yet ready to tackle the Etude itself.

[Torp]

A better question would be ...How does one best prepare to play a Chopin Etude, when one is not yet ready to tackle the Etude itself.

I believe this is what BolliverAllmon was asking at the beginning, or at least that was my interpretation.  I believe the question really revolves around the concept of progressive repertoire.  If a students goal is to be able to play the Chopin Etudes, how would you take that student from not being able to find Middle C to being able to play the Etudes.

I personally think the variables between students would be too great to come up with a "tried and true" road, but perhaps others with more experience than me could offer up a guide?  The difficulty, I presume, would be that each etude would require a different path of preparation and each student may need a slightly, or vastly, different path depending on their own abilities to assimilate repertoire and its corresponding technique.

Jef

[possom46]

Just play a damned Chopin Etude. Czerny is absolute mind-numbing bullxxxx.

I started playing the Czerny about 2 months ago after a big break in playing, wish I'd played them years ago, excellent for getting back speed and accuracy, for me anyway 

[BoliverAllmon]

I believe this is what BolliverAllmon was asking at the beginning, or at least that was my interpretation.  I believe the question really revolves around the concept of progressive repertoire.  If a students goal is to be able to play the Chopin Etudes, how would you take that student from not being able to find Middle C to being able to play the Etudes.

I personally think the variables between students would be too great to come up with a "tried and true" road, but perhaps others with more experience than me could offer up a guide?  The difficulty, I presume, would be that each etude would require a different path of preparation and each student may need a slightly, or vastly, different path depending on their own abilities to assimilate repertoire and its corresponding technique.

Jef

you my friend have hit the nail on the head. Others have failed.

boliver

[anja]

First of all, they should not be called Chopets. Where did you get that from? It is a complete bastardization of our language. In this case, it is also symbolic of what you are trying to do, namely condense the necessary work into an abbreviation of what is needed.

No beginner should get within ten feet of the score of a Chopin Etude.

[Torp]

you my friend have hit the nail on the head. Others have failed.

boliver

Just sorry I don't have the necessary background to help further with your question.

In this case, it is also symbolic of what you are trying to do, namely condense the necessary work into an abbreviation of what is needed.

I think this is exactly boliver's question, "what is the necessary work?"  If you're in a position to define that work and its application to a particular student, boliver would be all ears (or eyes I guess in the case of the internet).

Jef

[BoliverAllmon]

First of all, they should not be called Chopets. Where did you get that from? It is a complete bastardization of our language. In this case, it is also symbolic of what you are trying to do, namely condense the necessary work into an abbreviation of what is needed.

No beginner should get within ten feet of the score of a Chopin Etude.

complete bastardization? OOOOHHHHHKKKKKAAAAYYYY

[i_m_robot]

a bastardization would be to call them

Chappen eetuds (like clappen me thuds)

Chopet is just an abbreviation

[i_m_robot]

Try the gradus ad parnassum

self's book says it are what chopin made all his students play

[anja]

Oooookkkaaayyy. I'll answer your inquiry at face value. Basically you can imagine that most students take about ten to fifteen years of piano lessons until they are done gr. 10 piano. That's when they're usually about ready for the Chopin Etudes. So they start with a primer book first in order to learn the names of the notes, timing, phrasing, and very basic articulation. Then they start two-handed music by beginning with such things as parallel entries or chords that support only a portion of the melodic phrase. Then they learn other finer points of articulation, and more two-handed work including rounds in which lines of music overlap at a bar-or-so's distance. For the remainder of their piano career, they continue adding complexities, such as playing one hand legato, while the other hand staccato; or holding down certain fingers while releasing others; or being able to assimilate many chords(using up to about nine fingers at a time) fast enough to stay in tempo; or playing many notes in complex rhythmic patterns.  There's also dynamics and shading, and shaping to think about, and questions of notation, and a myriad of other details.

Mnay beginners could learn a piece in terms of the notes if they were forced to, say if they could only get out of a labor camp if their Chopin Etudes were up to snuff; but making it music is another matter. For another comparison, think of the medical world.

If I decided to perform a gallbladder operation on myself, there would be several people who could teach me how to do the cutting, how to unhinge it from the rest of me, and how to sew it all up. But what about finer points, like what to do if I start bleeding to death, how to avoid infection, and how to avoid the whole situation of self-operation in the first place?

People should not aim for unrealistic goals when thousands of realistic goals can keep them busy for days.
A beginner should not waste time musing about Chopin Etudes, or Fur Elise, or the Moonlight Sonata to name a few.

Hope this answers your question.

Anja, B. Mus, and student of piano for 30 years.

 

[i_m_robot]

 

self

2 years

10-1

nuff said

[Torp]

A beginner should not waste time musing about Chopin Etudes, or Fur Elise, or the Moonlight Sonata to name a few.

I'll respectfully disagree here.  I think this is exactly what beginners should muse about, assuming this music is of interest to them.  We should all muse about the pieces that we wish to play more than anything in the world.  This 'obsession' with the pieces currently out of our reach is what motivates us to do the work necessary to achieve them.

Additionally, since 'learning the notes' is a prerequisite to playing a piece and interpretation is a lifetime study, why not teach/learn the piece as early on as possible?


Bolliver,

Perhaps you should refine your question.  At the moment it is probably too broad to receive any meaningful feedback.  My thoughts here are to pick just one etude.  Then see if someone can help you define the specific technical challenges of that etude and then identify other works in order of progressive difficulty that would help to learn those technical challenges.

Actually, you could probably do this to a great degree on your own.  It doesn't really matter if you get it "perfect."  If you start to look at music and identify what its primary challenges are you will quickly be in a position to start formulating a plan with regards to any piece of music.  The limiting factor here is how much exposure you have to varied repertoire. (I suspect this is the reason for you question, i.e. to gain some insight from others who may have a greater, or varied, range of exposure from yours).

Keep up the faith.  I think your question has validity; I just think you may need to refine it a bit.  Maybe start another thread in the repertoire section? (leave a link to it here so we can find it from here)

Good luck,

Jef

[kilini]

Oooookkkaaayyy. I'll answer your inquiry at face value. Basically you can imagine that most students take about ten to fifteen years of piano lessons until they are done gr. 10 piano. That's when they're usually about ready for the Chopin Etudes. So they start with a primer book first in order to learn the names of the notes, timing, phrasing, and very basic articulation. Then they start two-handed music by beginning with such things as parallel entries or chords that support only a portion of the melodic phrase. Then they learn other finer points of articulation, and more two-handed work including rounds in which lines of music overlap at a bar-or-so's distance. For the remainder of their piano career, they continue adding complexities, such as playing one hand legato, while the other hand staccato; or holding down certain fingers while releasing others; or being able to assimilate many chords(using up to about nine fingers at a time) fast enough to stay in tempo; or playing many notes in complex rhythmic patterns.  There's also dynamics and shading, and shaping to think about, and questions of notation, and a myriad of other details.

Mnay beginners could learn a piece in terms of the notes if they were forced to, say if they could only get out of a labor camp if their Chopin Etudes were up to snuff; but making it music is another matter. For another comparison, think of the medical world.

If I decided to perform a gallbladder operation on myself, there would be several people who could teach me how to do the cutting, how to unhinge it from the rest of me, and how to sew it all up. But what about finer points, like what to do if I start bleeding to death, how to avoid infection, and how to avoid the whole situation of self-operation in the first place?

People should not aim for unrealistic goals when thousands of realistic goals can keep them busy for days.
A beginner should not waste time musing about Chopin Etudes, or Fur Elise, or the Moonlight Sonata to name a few.

Hope this answers your question.

Anja, B. Mus, and student of piano for 30 years.

 

Excuse me, but I mused about Fur Elise when I was a 3 month student and ended up learning it. I'm not saying everyone should, but you shouldn't force students to concentrate only on chopsticks; they should be able to have goals.