tempo markings of chopin's etudes --- too fast??

[march05]

Quote from: tosca1 on January 06, 2003, 08:53:58 PM

...On a good day I can get through it comfortably at a moderate speed (MM 104) but not at the recommended MM 176 which would give the piece its full glittering grandeur.

i'm curious to know how you all feel about the tempo indications on chopin's etudes, cos i think they're excessively fast... i've not been able to play any of the fast ones at the required tempo. I've a few recordings of these etudes (one by ashkenazy) and they sound to me slower than the MM written by chopin. btw, was it chopin who wrote those markings or some editor? Maybe those speeds were easier back then when piano actions were lighter? I once tried on a clavichord-like instrument that's very light, and i found it somehow natural to play fast on it's very light keys...  Any thoughts?

Oh, now i remember seeing a video of richter playing op10no4 incredibly fast, maybe that's what MM176 sounds like (not sure). it's on bruno monsaingeon's documentary on him.

[thierry13]

They are definitly ok tempos. Remember there are etudes, and are supposed to build technique  If you haven't been able to play any to speed, then they are above your level. Ashkenazy allways take pieces a little slower to get better clarity, it's ashkenazy's strength: clarity. It's the most important thing for him.

[steinwayguy]

They are definitly ok tempos. Remember there are etudes, and are supposed to build technique If you haven't been able to play any to speed, then they are above your level. Ashkenazy allways take pieces a little slower to get better clarity, it's ashkenazy's strength: clarity. It's the most important thing for him.

I largely disagree. Op. 10 No. 1 need not be played at 176. It is more "grand" at 152. There was something on a thread here earlier about chopin having used a differently scaled metronome, if anyone wants to clarify that...


Oh, and btw, Richter was playing C-sharp Minor at a solid 210 to the quarter.

[fnork]

I would really like to know more about chopin using a differently scaled metronome. That would explain some of the "crazy" tempo indications, like in op 10 no 1. By the way, did chopin ever write down hints and tips on how to play his etudes? Or did his piano students pass on this information? It would be interresting to read. I have Mikulis edition of the etudes (he was one of chopins students), and it gives you a few tips but not a lot.

Are Cziffras tips on the etudes availeble anywhere? (online?)

[thierry13]

I largely disagree. Op. 10 No. 1 need not be played at 176. It is more "grand" at 152. There was something on a thread here earlier about chopin having used a differently scaled metronome, if anyone wants to clarify that...


Oh, and btw, Richter was playing C-sharp Minor at a solid 210 to the quarter.

They are not made to be GRAND, they are made to build technique, that's why i precised that they are ETUDE. These are not pieces to play slower to get a better musical effect. BTW, tempo marking on etude op.10 no.1 is 160, not 176. 160 is pretty near your 152, so i think 160 is ok. I have the cortot student's edition.

[pseudopianist]

They are not made to be GRAND, they are made to build technique, that's why i precised that they are ETUDE. These are not pieces to play slower to get a better musical effect. BTW, tempo marking on etude op.10 no.1 is 160, not 176. 160 is pretty near your 152, so i think 160 is ok. I have the cortot student's edition.

First of all it is 176.

Sure they are etudes but I think it is perfectly fine to play it slower if that is what you wish or what you think sound better.

[Etude]

They are not made to be GRAND, they are made to build technique.

So 10/1 is just arpeggio practice is it?  You should play the Chopin Etudes like they are a bunch of Czerny exercises?  I don't think so.

[pianiststrongbad]

I was wondering this a few months ago when I was performing Op. 10 no. 1.  I looked in the Godowsky version and he says that 176 is a bit fast for the grand character of the etude.  Though, I have to agree that it is an etude and the goal is to be able to play it very fast and musical.  I ended up playing this etude between 170- 180.

[xvimbi]

I would really like to know more about chopin using a differently scaled metronome. That would explain some of the "crazy" tempo indications, like in op 10 no 1. By the way, did chopin ever write down hints and tips on how to play his etudes? Or did his piano students pass on this information? It would be interresting to read. I have Mikulis edition of the etudes (he was one of chopins students), and it gives you a few tips but not a lot.

Are Cziffras tips on the etudes availeble anywhere? (online?)

Abby Whiteside on Piano Playing : Indispensables of Piano Playing - Mastering the Chopin Etudes and Other Essays
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1574670263/qid=1111341186/sr=2-5/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_5/002-6187995-5427235

Pauline Hawke Warch: An analysis of the Chopin etudes as material for the development of a piano technique
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007G2LJ0/qid=1111341186/sr=1-5/ref=sr_1_5/002-6187995-5427235?v=glance&s=books

James I McKeever: Leopold Godowsky and his Studies on Chopin's etudes
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0006W8XFQ/qid=1111341186/sr=1-8/ref=sr_1_8/002-6187995-5427235?v=glance&s=books

Jan Marisse Huizing: De Chopin-etudes in historisch perspectief
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9060207556/qid=1111341186/sr=1-9/ref=sr_1_9/002-6187995-5427235?v=glance&s=books

https://chopin.interserver.net/etudes.html

[TheHammer]

Please also look at this thread:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,6831.0.html

Especially reply #6. It's about a theory that nearly all pieces with metronome marks nowadays are played way too fast, because the markings refer to two "beats" of the metronome!
That means, for example, chopin etude op. 10/1 would be played at quarter note=88, because you have to play a quarter note within two, not one beat or "toc" of the metronome. Quite interesting...

[paris]

i think it's is better to play op.10 n.1 at metronome 138 and play all clear then at 176 and miss every second note and struggle.  i don't say you shouldn't play so fast, it is perfect if you can.  but i think real tempo comes with many months of practise, in this case many years...

[IanT]

I actually did some research on this when I was learning 10/1.  I listened to several recordings with the metronome going.  Here is what I found:

Cortot, Cherkassky, Perlemuter, Novaes all take it at about 144.  Ashkenazy is at 156.

Remember that Chopin wrote these at a 19th c. Pleyel which has a very light action - almost akin to a fortepiano.  I've also heard musings that Chopin's sister (who fair-copied the first few etudes for publication) may have made an error with the mm for 10/1.

And to anyone who thinks that these pieces should be played as fast as possible without regard to the musical effect, I would say, stop playing the piano and take up juggling or something else where your lack of artistry will not be so apparent.

Ian

[steinwayguy]

They are not made to be GRAND, they are made to build technique, that's why i precised that they are ETUDE. These are not pieces to play slower to get a better musical effect. BTW, tempo marking on etude op.10 no.1 is 160, not 176. 160 is pretty near your 152, so i think 160 is ok. I have the cortot student's edition.

You are a disgrace to this forum. I need not explain why.

[march05]

thanks IanT for those infos! nice to know what speed the famous ones play it at...

and thanks hammer for the link. this quote from allchopin is interesting:

"- I quote Roberto from a distant thread about Chopin's third etude:

" "The metronome indication of the étude op.10 nr 3 in the first original edition "Maurice Schlesinger" (who is buryd near Chopin in "Pére la Chaise"...) is exactly 100 for a eight note. That meanse exactly "76" on the contempory metronome...because Chopin's metronome dit not have the same "speed"...The étude op.10 nr 2 has "144" , that means with us "116"; I think this is very important to know the exactly tempo of each étude because it's changing the 'interpretation.' " "

anyone remembers the link to that roberto thread he mentioned? also i still don't get it how to get 116 from 144 on chopin's metronome? from some sort of conversion table?

finally to pianiststrongbad (& anyone else playing op10no1 at 160-170 comfortably) i'm truly impressed. could you guys give us some tips? the max i can play it cleanly atm is about 140-, and i think with my current way of playing it i'll never get beyond 150 because there's no time to turn-contract the thumb after each 4-notes group. i suspect you have to play it with different technique to get to 160-170, can you perhaps try to describe what's the difference (with hand movements, etc) between playing that etude at 140 and at 160?

[Kapellmeister27]

Personally, i dont think that the mertronome markings are fast enough

[thierry13]

You are a disgrace to this forum. I need not explain why.

I didn't say they shouldn't be played that way. If I would be able to play it at 176 I would surely play it at about 156 for my personal interpretation. But I was talking about what CHOPIN INTENDED. Chopin composed pieces to be grand, and he made some nice musical stuff in etudes, but the way to build up technique in this etude is to play it at 176. To play it as a concert piece is another thing.

[chromatickler]

finally to pianiststrongbad (& anyone else playing op10no1 at 160-170 comfortably) i'm truly impressed. could you guys give us some tips?

no no no no no no!

For true advice, seek da legendary NatDog, alias 'ArgerichSmitten', fo he unleashed this at 240 on video. a 1'21 sheeeeyat. da utmozt respect 

[pianiststrongbad]

March05, I think the reason I can play the first etude at this speed comfortably is that after each set of four notes my thumb is already in place to to start the next four notes.  The way I originally practiced it was to play all four notes and then move my thumb as fast as i could to the next octave up.  I quickly found out this was not the way to do it.  Rather, in the first grouping of notes (C,G,C,E) when my fourth finger plays that third note in the group (C) my thumb has already shifted a lot and is rather close to that next C already.  I practiced this etude for a while doing this: Just playing the first three notes of each arpeggio (in the first one C,G,C) with the fingering you would use, so in this case 1,2,4.  And then jump the octave and do it.  It is very similar to op. 25 no. 12, except that you are using different fingerings.  By doing this you will cause your thumb to travel right after it has played its note.  The only real trouble i had in this etude were the A major arpeggio and the arpeggio that had Bb, F, Ab, and D.  All of the others came pretty naturally.

[argerich_smitten]

no no no no no no!

For true advice, seek da legendary NatDog, alias 'ArgerichSmitten', fo he unleashed this at 240 on video. a 1'21 sheeeeyat. da utmozt respect 

Now that I've been promoted to 'legendary' status, I guess I should make a comment or 2...

I agree with strongbad that your entire arm must be moving up and down the keyboard continuously (one of the focuses of this etude is horizontal motion), and the thumb will follow behind to make the connection with greater ease, rather than having a jerky arm movement throw off the accuracy.  The connection from the pinky to the thumb (the start of the next group of notes) should be as fluid as the connection from finger to finger in the middle of the group.  It helped me thinking that my arm was moving up or down the keyboard at constant speed; the arm has the same flowing feel as the notes.  Obviously you want to minimize tension; if you are playing it at high speeds and start tense, it will be all over by the bottom of the second page.  Once again if you try to loosen all the arm muscles and feel the arm 'flowing' up and down the keys, it will make the playing more effortless.  Because you want the notes in the right hand to ring out clearly, play with some fraction of your arm weight; do not use any muscles to push the keys down to get the ringing tone, because this will lead to unneccesary tension. 

I think Robert Henry did a hell of a job explaining this etude in another string, certainly a better job than I could. 

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,10.0.html

consider giving that a look

[march05]

... I practiced this etude for a while doing this: Just playing the first three notes of each arpeggio (in the first one C,G,C) with the fingering you would use, so in this case 1,2,4.  And then jump the octave and do it.  It is very similar to op. 25 no. 12, except that you are using different fingerings.  By doing this you will cause your thumb to travel right after it has played its note...

Thanks for that great exercise, even the moment I read it I realized it will probably help... I decided to spend some time practising op10no1 with 2 different rhythms, one an imitation of op25no12 like you said (starting like CGC CGC CGC...) and the other one like this:
          E             E
            \             \
C   G C    C    G C   C  ....
     ----         ----

with the E played like a [what's it called, my theory sucks] leading to the next C. Pls let me know if I'm taking the wrong path...

Thanks Argerich_Smitten for the link, I checked it out (great pianistic thread! Wish we have more like that!)  here's an interesting quote from Robert_Henry:

WRIST STUFF: First, I'll use the symbol: ^ to denote the height of your wrist.
                                               ^
                                ^             ^
(normal)      ^            ^            ^
C                 G           C             E

See?  Now if you combine the raising of your wrist with the contraction of your hand, it will be no problem.

Right now I'm playing with almost constant sideway motions like you guys recommended, but with mostly even wrist height. I only let my wrist make a quick O-turn when hitting the accented notes. Do you pple think it's essential to vary the wrist height?

Oh, I'd luv to see some videos of this etude, on this forum or elsewhere, doesn't matter....