Sorabji's Opus Clavicemballisticum

[Sergey R]

I've heard about this piece as being the hardest ever written because it is two hours long and really hard and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone has actually played it? And does it even sound any good or is it just nonsense? Does anyone know where I could download a soundfile of it?

[Skeptopotamus]

arg


all i have to say is arg.



i think we need to have the word "Clavicemballisticum" banned from this site.

[thierry13]

Make a search on it in the forum, and you will find links. It is not two hours long, but four hours long, and it does NOT sound well. Some like it, but I don't, it's only pure percussive dissonance. There are two recordings : Madge and Ogdon I think ( correct me if I'm wrong). And all who listened to it found that the recordings were poor. And the pianists surely played to the best of their ability. This piece is insane, but ALL pieces by sorabji are like that. Is sonata is the same difficulty I think.

[Etude]

arg


all i have to say is arg.



i think we need to have the word "Clavicemballisticum" banned from this site.

Haha, you may do that but then we will just have to spell it correctly.

[Etude]

I've heard about this piece as being the hardest ever written because it is two hours long and really hard and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone has actually played it? And does it even sound any good or is it just nonsense? Does anyone know where I could download a soundfile of it?

Four hours, long.  Not the most difficult piece considering the likes of Nancarrow and Finnissey, but still unbelievably difficult, so hard that its only had about 10 complete performances so far,  two recordings by Madge and Ogdon with almost equal incompetence. If you mean have members played it.  It probably sounds good when played well but its long and complex, plus you have to like atonal as well, although most of it is not as chromatically atonal as other atonal like the two composers I mentioned above.  I recently gave a speech on OC for an oral examination in English and now my teacher wants to hear some of the piece  .  The title means literally "work for piano." The whole thing is written on mostly 3 or 4 staves I posted a link to some real samples of the madge a while ago, here is the topic.

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,6887.0.html

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Make a search on it in the forum, and you will find links. It is not two hours long, but four hours long, and it does NOT sound well. Some like it, but I don't, it's only pure percussive dissonance.

First of all, if you don't like a piece, then it is better that you don't dismiss it as percussive dissonance. Some people like this type of music, and you are disrespecting the fact that they like it by saying such things without anything to back up your claim. Second of all, the statement that "it does not sound well" is ludacrous, as nobody truly knows what the hell this piece sounds like!

Finally, if you are going to say a piece does not sound GOOD, then at least use proper grammar.

I've heard about this piece as being the hardest ever written because it is two hours long and really hard and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone has actually played it? And does it even sound any good or is it just nonsense? Does anyone know where I could download a soundfile of it?

Unfortunately, there was a complete recording that I had posted that was removed. But Madge does not even attempt to hit the right notes in parts. And sadly, I saw that in several parts, he was IMPROVISING!! What a scandal! I was shocked at this! And moreso, in parts where he actually ATTEMPTED to play what was on the page, he was purposely playing wrong notes, to make it more shocking to the audience. There were simple (and momentarily tonal) parts, that sound nice when played right (which can even be sightread correctly) where he was adding notes to make it more dissonant. Absolutely ridiculous!

[Etude]

That was a bit harsh Ludwig van Rachabji, maybe he was just nervous, knowing that he's playing the longest and hardest piece to make it into print. 

EDIT: But then again, listen at 6:47 on the Coda-stretta where you are perfectly right.

[Etude]

Does anyone else here have the Ogdon recording?  He plays more right notes than madge but he is too harsh with the sound most of the time, and isn't really prepared enough for some of the movements.  Madge had a previous performance on four LPs that have disappeared, I wonder if they were any better unless someone here has heard them.  As one amazon.com reviewer put it:  "Madge's wrong notes are the right wrong notes, while Ogdon's right notes are worthless." 

What I don't understand is why Ogdon couldn't retake some of the poorer parts of his recording, since it was in a studio.  Maybe his mental health at the time interferred with his effort, but I'm being quite presumptuous here.  One thing I know for certain is that my mind has been changed about which is the better recording.

btw I think maybe we should have a sticky topic about OC so all OC stuff can go in that thread, since people seem to become agitated about new OC threads these days.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

EDIT: But then again, listen at 6:47 on the Coda-stretta where you are perfectly right.

Look at 5:06 on the Coda-Stretta... what a joke.

[Etude]

. 

[Radix]

I've heard about this piece as being the hardest ever written because it is two hours long and really hard and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone has actually played it? And does it even sound any good or is it just nonsense? Does anyone know where I could download a soundfile of it?

I'm going to say outright that it sounds just like nonsense. "Maximalism" is just as stupid as "minimalism," and that might be why every single piece of music that I've heard of Sorabji's sounds like absolute garbage.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I'm going to say outright that it sounds just like nonsense. "Maximalism" is just as stupid as "minimalism," and that might be why every single piece of music that I've heard of Sorabji's sounds like absolute garbage.

I'm sorry, but everything everybody has said that is negative towards this piece is absolute rubbish, as none of you have stated WHY you think it sounds like garbage/nonsense. How much longer can it possibly take to explain why this music is "garbage"?

[apion]

I've heard about this piece as being the hardest ever written because it is two hours long and really hard and stuff, but I was wondering if anyone has actually played it? And does it even sound any good or is it just nonsense? Does anyone know where I could download a soundfile of it?

Supposedly, there's an even tougher piece that's 8 hours long ...... but I can't remember what it's called.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Supposedly, there's an even tougher piece that's 8 hours long ...... but I can't remember what it's called.

Sequentia Cyclica Super "Dies Irae" Ex Missa Pro Defunctis

[Etude]

The 100 transcendental etudes are about 8 hours long complete.  But even longer still are the symphonic variations for solo piano which last up to 9 hours.  There was a fake review of a fake cd a while ago of a recording of a fake sorabji piece called 'Opus Amorassissimo.'  1000 pages composed in 7 days and 9 hrs long.

[thierry13]

First of all, if you don't like a piece, then it is better that you don't dismiss it as percussive dissonance. Some people like this type of music, and you are disrespecting the fact that they like it by saying such things without anything to back up your claim. Second of all, the statement that "it does not sound well" is ludacrous, as nobody truly knows what the hell this piece sounds like!

I listened to the four hours completely, I know EXACTLY how it sound. As you see, i watched me and did'nt said "crap" or "bargage". But yes this work is percussive, since allmost all modern composers considered the piano as a percussive instrument. And don't say me this thing is'nt dissonant  So it's not an opinion but a fact. But did I said that "percussive dissonance" was a bad thing? No. That's only what it is. Some people like to listen to drum beats, it's the same thing here, except it's on the piano. If you like it it's ok, but I don't, and I DON'T say this music is crap, as NO music is crap. So, I don't think I have to back up my claims. But why would us who don't like it, should have to back up our claims? Why don't YOU explain us why it's that good? I would be very happy to hear why 

[Etude]

I listened to the four hours completely, I know EXACTLY how it sound. As you see, i watched me and did'nt said "crap" or "bargage". But yes this work is percussive, since allmost all modern composers considered the piano as a percussive instrument.

I'm afraid you are mistaken thierry13, Sorabji wanted a singing tone in his works, he told Madge, "My works are like endless songs, simply sing them."  He abhored people who bang the piano in a percussive way, and when oc is played properly the only percussive parts should be at some of the really big climaxes towards the ends of movements.

[Sergey R]

Ok, thanks guys. I'll take a look at that link and try to listen to it so I can decide for myself. Personally, before having listened to it, it seems to me that it will be nonsense but I'd have to here it for myself first.

[Rez]

Michael Habermann did a recording of the Introito and Choral: the first two parts of the OC.  He studied these sections very carefully and played from memory rather than sight guessing.  I think that Habermann truly captured the essense of the piece and that it is the best way to judge it's merits: or lack thereof.  I really like this recording.  To me the OC a very visual piece; the motifs are not so much melodies as they are menacing shapes that Sorabji twists and manipulates.

Aside from playing the wrong notes, the sound quality of Madge's recording sounds like a toy piano.

Naturally Habermann's recording is no longer in print.  The CD was entitled A Legend in His Own Time.  I'm sure someone is just aching to call it A Legend in His Own Mind.  Haa Haa beat you to it.  This CD and the score are difficult to find, but some University libraries have the CD.   No doubt the CD and score would be shelved next to such rarities as the dreaded and blasphemous Necronomicon. Perhaps the library at Miskatonic University. https://www.miskatonic.net/ 

[musik_man]

I think the main reason I dislike the OC is it's length.  Any time you make a piece longer you need to say more and say it more clearly.  The longer a work is, the more difficult it is to compose it, and still keep it interesting.  Mahler is one of my favorite composers, yet his hour and a half symphonies really push it for me.  Same thing with Wagner operas, or Bach's St. Matthew's Passion.  The idea of listening to a 4 hour work from some unknown hack is... well stupid.

BTW my new plan is to compose a 24hr work.  If anyone calls it crap, I'll simply accuse them of not listening to it.  If they've done that, I'll say that it needs repeated listens to be appreciated, and if they still persist in their criticisms, I can simply respond that the recording that they listened to is unfaithful to the score.  Of course all recordings will be unfaithful to the score, as this piece will be impossibly difficult.  My plan is bulletproof.

[SteinwayTony]

BTW my new plan is to compose a 24hr work.  If anyone calls it crap, I'll simply accuse them of not listening to it.  If they've done that, I'll say that it needs repeated listens to be appreciated, and if they still persist in their criticisms, I can simply respond that the recording that they listened to is unfaithful to the score.  Of course all recordings will be unfaithful to the score, as this piece will be impossibly difficult.  My plan is bulletproof.

Wow, great plan.  Why not loop Rondo Alla Turca 600 times and call yourself a composer?

[musik_man]

Wow, great plan. Why not loop Rondo Alla Turca 600 times and call yourself a composer?

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.  You might wanna check that out.

[SteinwayTony]

I think your sarcasm detector is broken.

Don't worry, I got a dozen of em last week at Costco.

[Rez]

D'oh

I was going to post my sarcasm meter but it didn't work.

[Etude]

I'm going to say outright that it sounds just like nonsense. "Maximalism" is just as stupid as "minimalism,"

What's wrong with minimalism? 

If "maximalism" is using no repeated material at all in a piece, this is not OC at all.  Sorabji even included a list of the main themes of the work at the back of his manuscript, that are quoted throughout the composition.

that might be why every single piece of music that I've heard of Sorabji's sounds like absolute garbage.

What have you heard?  Madge attempting to fake his way through Opus Clavicembalisticum?

[Skeptopotamus]

catfight

[Etude]

what

[mikeyg]

breathe in through the nose, out through the mouth...

[Etude]

RIP thread.....   

[nicko124]

What have you heard?  Madge attempting to fake his way through Opus Clavicembalisticum?

I don't know how he can even attempt to do that. What does he do? Not Learn It? If it is so dificult than he surely can't sight read it or improvise on it. I find OC fascinating in the way that the only bits i have heard hardly sound like music at all. Yet some say that Sorabji wrote some decent music and OC is not his best work, for me it needs to be more like music for it to be classed decent.

[Etude]

I don't know how he can even attempt to do that. What does he do? Not Learn It? If it is so dificult than he surely can't sight read it or improvise on it. I find OC fascinating in the way that the only bits i have heard hardly sound like music at all. Yet some say that Sorabji wrote some decent music and OC is not his best work, for me it needs to be more like music for it to be classed decent.

He doesn't improvise on OC, he plays only the "outline" of the music.  what he plays has only the slightest resemblence to what is in the score.  This is an example of what I mean:

The one movement that I feel is the worst is the Coda-Stretta. Look -




First, play it through yourself (slowly) and try to imagine what it sounds like. Now listen to how Madge plays this -

https://www.johncareycompositions.com/Coda-Stretta (Madge).mp3

And tell me if it's remotely similar!

Madge deviates almost completely from what is written on the page, disfiguring the music beyond recognition.  Just look at the bar in the quote above while you listen to the link recording and you will know something is wrong.  Madge's Coda-Stretta is simply seven and a half minutes of non stop banging and the only thing he pays any attention to is the bass line, while the rest of the parts he plays are completely made-up counterpoint, based slightly on the melodic directions of the original parts, resulting in sonic chaos.

[etudes]

He doesn't improvise on OC, he plays only the "outline" of the music.  what he plays has only the slightest resemblence to what is in the score.  This is an example of what I mean:

Madge deviates almost completely from what is written on the page, disfiguring the music beyond recognition.  Just look at the bar in the quote above while you listen to the link recording and you will know something is wrong.  Madge's Coda-Stretta is simply seven and a half minutes of non stop banging and the only thing he pays any attention to is the bass line, while the rest of the parts he plays are completely made-up counterpoint, based slightly on the melodic directions of the original parts, resulting in sonic chaos.

agree
anyway
i love the word sight guessing FUNNY!
but i still find the recording and score of this OC
thanks

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

To everyone who wants the score to the OC,

It's available right here. Tell me if you can't access the score, and I'll see what I can do.

https://s35.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2DCDX0YE8J7BH3OTED433ZXHID

[etudes]

God! 17.8 per one piece! 
i can reach it
i hope it wont get down while i download it
thanks LVR
do have a record?

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Yes. I have Madge's recording. But, when zipped, the .zip file is 300MB.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Also, I just realized that only one person can download the file at once, so if it says "Your download is in progress", your out of luck until the person downloading is done. Sorry.

[etudes]

300 mb  
- -''
anyway i got the score
thanks

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

You're welcome. I'm glad it worked for you.

[etudes]

You're welcome. I'm glad it worked for you.

not sure in the term of playing 

[nicko124]

To everyone who wants the score to the OC,

It's available right here. Tell me if you can't access the score, and I'll see what I can do.

https://s35.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2DCDX0YE8J7BH3OTED433ZXHID

Thanks for this. I will have a look at the score in terms of interest but i would not dream of learning it.....ever. This is because of two reasons:-

1. It is among the most difficult piano music ever written.

2. I wouldn't see the reward in learning something so long and so difficult if i don't like the sound.

Yes i admit the Madge recording i heard of Coda Stretta was terrible and Hauberman is much better. However even this pianist who has dedicated 'three decades' of his life towards it doesen't produce a likeable sound for me. This is most proabably the composition and appreiating the music is strictly specialist: an aqquired taste if you will.

However after listening to two interviews of Hauberman provided by Ludvig Van Rachabji i am fascinated by this composer (Sorabji). He seems completely unique yet through my eyes had a lot of musical talent yet didn't have the ear for a good tune.

This is all my own opinion though just in case anyone wanted to know and/or discuss.
I have a lot of respect for you pianists here who can appreciate the OC and try to learn it, good luck with it.

[mikeyg]

Hew, how about this for an idea.  A bunch of PF members learn a section of it, and we put it all together?  I'm sure if we all worked on it for a year, we could get our part down decently.

[etudes]

after reading score
we should put 2 pianists on piano to play
so we have to find some of couples here who want to take that piece 
anyway it also very difficult even play with 2 person

[Etude]

Hew, how about this for an idea.  A bunch of PF members learn a section of it, and we put it all together?  I'm sure if we all worked on it for a year, we could get our part down decently.

I want to do the first three movements 

[nanabush]

I'd be willing to do that.... xcept how much would each person have to learn?  And I can learn almost anything xcept long runs in thirds, I've never been able to do those fast...

[Etude]

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[Etude]

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