a different kind of question

[BoliverAllmon]

I am looking for a piano that would have a very heavy touch and dull sound. what brands tend to fill this criteria? I am looking for something that isn't overpowering for a small room.

boliver

[Pianostudy]

I recently played on the East German piano August Forester and I found it had a very dull sound and quite a heavy touch.  Although, these pianos tend to be very expensive ($70,00 range for 7'6" grand).

[G.Fiore]

 Boliver, why would you want a piano with a heavy touch and dull sound?
 As for the A. Förster, how old was it?  What you describe bears no relation to their pianos of recent manufacture. The model 215 at 7'1" is a gem of a piano with a robust bass and very balanced treble.  The Renner actions AF uses are very well regulated,responsive, and have a well balanced touch weight that many consider to play as smooth as butter.

[jon-nyc]

I understand the quest for a heavy touch (although I like a lighter touch, I see why others might want it heavy), but a dull sound?

And Pianostudy - do tell us how old the August Forster you played was.  I was just piano shopping and played loads of AFs.  I found they had great tone and a delightful action (as G. Fiore notes).  Also, the 215 can be had for significantly less than $70k US.

[Brian Lawson, RPT]

Perhaps if you want a mellow sound it would better describe your needs. If volume is a problem because of a small space then you can get a Grand Mute Rail made by QRS see www.qrsmusic.com and call a piano tech who can get and fit it. Cost about $240, $150 for an upright.

You don't need to suffer a heavy touch.

[CJ Quinn]

Also, the 215 can be had for significantly less than $70k US.

In fact I bet you can get both an AF190 and an AF 215 for ~$70k if yo know how to bargain.

I've played dozens of AFs in the past year and a half and only one of them had a heavy action.  It was a used piano owned by a guy who was dodging creditors and moved 4 or 5 times in a couple of years, had the piano in and out of storage, and never had it serviced.  Still I'd bet that piano would have a fabuous action with 4 or 5 hours of regulation work.

Every AF leaves the factory with the action prepped by the same guy - Frank Isreal.  I played AFs directly out of the shipping crate, in storage for 6 months prior to that, that had the most perfect action this side of a prepped Bosie.

Further,as  an AF owner I researched and keenly read every observation about AF that I could come across, I have never once read an account of anyone claiming that AFs have heavy action.

So let's just say that pianostudy's sample size of 1 may be what has lead to this contrary opinion.  Also, AF does not make a 7'6" grand, so that's  a bit confusing too.

[BoliverAllmon]

I find that if I learn to play on a very heavy touch piano, then no matter what type of piano I have to play on for a recital I can handle it. If I am only use to light touches then I may get something heavy and be in a world of trouble. What I mean by dull sound is a quieter more mellow sound. I don't want a piano that has a nice robust sound like a 9 ft. concert grand. The guard rail thing you mentioned may work just fine.

boliver

[Axtremus]

Go get a pre-carbon action Kawai RX grand (say, one built in 2003 or earlier), have it voiced way down and/or stick a mute rail in. Or consider a 2+ year old Mason and Hamlin for even heavier action, and have that voiced way down and/or stick a mute rail in it. These are the "heavier touch" pianos that I have played.

Though I do believe a mute rail would be too severe for what you want to do, though one can explore the idea of custom fitting a thinner/lighter felt for the mute rail. I'd go the voicing route first (then play with the lid closed, throw heavy blanket around the piano and under the piano, full carpeting, lots of fabric wall hanging, curtains, and upholstered furniture as well), and perhaps have the piano regulated to play even heavier if that's what you really want.

Good luck.

[redhead]

Why do you want a dark, mellow sound?  Just because you prefer it, or is it perhaps because you want quiet to save your ears?

If you just want to decrease the volume, there are musician earplugs that decrease the volume without changing the tone quality.   They are custom molded to your ear.

I just ordered a pair, and I can tell you how well they work for me in a couple of weeks.

 

[dinosaurtales]

I am amazed that somebody had a "dull" August Forster!  The ones I played had wonderful, medium actions, and not at dull sounding!  Big bang for the buck in a high end piano.

I am not sure why you want a "dull" piano, but:

Grotrians have a particularly heavy action - they are noted for this, so if you can find a Grotrian, it will likely have it.  I played on one, and even though I would adjust fine, I did find the action to be a bit heavier than I usually like.

As for dull, I know I will raise some ire with this, but I find (new) Steinways to have an extremely dull sound, compared to some of the European brands.  Yamahas are exptemely bright, but I do not know about other asian pianos.

[BoliverAllmon]

Why do you want a dark, mellow sound?  Just because you prefer it, or is it perhaps because you want quiet to save your ears?

If you just want to decrease the volume, there are musician earplugs that decrease the volume without changing the tone quality.   They are custom molded to your ear.

I just ordered a pair, and I can tell you how well they work for me in a couple of weeks.

 

I want a softer sound and duller pianos can become bright through proper technique. I can use a certain technique and get a bright sound, whereas I can work with a bright piano and never get mellow moving sound out of it.

boliver

[Axtremus]

Hmmm... I myself find that it is often easier for me to get a mellower/duller sound out of an inherently bright piano than it is for me to get a brighter/brilliant sound out of an inherently mellow piano. Oh well, to each his own.

Just curious, Boliver, what pieces are your working on?

[BoliverAllmon]

bach 15 inventions
shostakovich lyrical waltz
satie gymnopedie 1
chopin 10/1

[valen1]

If you are looking for a piano with heavy touch and dull sound try a Chickering Grand.
My Chickering is 6' 5" long and dates back to 1910.  This piano is in an averege size
Family or front room. The sound is perfect not over powering at all. The action is like
night and day in comparisint to a Steinway that I visit every week for lessons. If you
are looking for a heavy bass section I would suggest the Chickering over the Steinway. 

[chickering9]

If you are looking for a piano with heavy touch and dull sound try a Chickering Grand.

Again, as with the Forester earlier, the characterization of dull and heavy for Chickering is an over-generalization based on one example.  Chickering's are actually more often characterized as "bright", and for a given size, they're usually a bit more powerful than the competition at their quality level.  If one is in good voice, though, I would say it is by nature not "bright", but rather it is "dark", but with a coating of lyrical shimmer that some perceive as "bright".  I have come to think of it as being much closer to the European tradition of the sound of the piano sound envelope akin to Boesendorfer than most of its American brethren, which makes the term "American sound" seem a bit ironic, given that Chickering was the first and among the most highly regarded American makes. That "American sound" is probably a complex sound associated with big Baldwins and NY Steinways--a sound where the upper partials are strongly evident at all levels of play.  Where I see Chickering nearest its ideal voicing is having much more of a clean fundamental at pp levels with just a hint of those complex overtones from the higher partials, but with those partials fully in evidence at FFFF levels--but never to that point of "complexity" that tends toward harshness of some of the other American makes at FFFF levels.  Hence, I think "dark" is a good characterization.

Characterization of the action as "heavy" might be apt if the action has been regulated so as to be heavy.  My own concert grand is regulated to be quite light and definitely deserves the oft-heard description of "buttery".  My two touring/recording concert pianist friends both say it is the most easy but responsive and controllable action they've ever played.   I regulate my own piano and have regulated it such that the action was uniformly heavy and it did indeed subdue the power and tone.  But it is equally possible to regulate it so that it is very light and the power and tone come up.   I like it on the light side of medium.  I have no trouble whatsoever making it whisper beautifully at pppp levels, without the necessity of getting there by making the touch heavy.  If anything, regulating it for a heavy touch, which is certainly possible, robs it of the high end power I would want for FFFF.

I think it really is the case that regulation, tuning and voicing are mostly what account for the differences people sometimes attribute to a make, even while not seeing the inconsistency that suggests when two identical models side-by-side exhibit entirely opposite extremes of dull/bright, light/heavy.

Further, it was a 6'5", probably much the same as your own, that led me to look for the concert grand version.  The thing that stood out for me and very nearly made me buy that spectacular 6'5"was that it was light of action and shimmeringly brilliant and head and shoulders more powerful than all the Steinways, Masons and Kawais on the floor around it.  It was anything but dull and heavy.  If it had been either, I'd never have given it the time of day, much less looked for the best and biggest one I could find.  I'd have bought a Steinway or Mason instead, if that had been the case.

[Pianostudy]

And Pianostudy - do tell us how old the August Forster you played was.  I was just piano shopping and played loads of AFs.  I found they had great tone and a delightful action (as G. Fiore notes).  Also, the 215 can be had for significantly less than $70k US.

Well, as I understood it, the piano I played on was from about 1997, and it was actually the subject of a Piano Technicians Guild chapter meeting where they were going to take it apart and do some work on the heavy action.  I'm sure this piano was a fluke in that most August Foresters do not have this kind of heavy action and dull sound.  Also, I was guessing on the size, as I do know that many piano makers make a 7'6", so it probably was the 7'1".

[pianowelsh]

Most of the college bosendorfers i play are heavy but that could be just that they are passed it?! they are expensive though. Heavy light is usually to do with the way they are regulated though a good piano technition ought to be able to help you.

[BoliverAllmon]

thanks for the info

[Motrax]

I don't know how much you've thought about this (perhaps a lot, and my advice is unwelcome ), but buying a piano at one extreme or another can be very detrimental in the long run. I have a Young Chang with comparitively light action, and a very bright sound, and I used to have a lot of trouble with heavier, duller pianos. However, after a few months of college practice room pianos, I feel like I could sit down at pretty much any instrument and be satisfied with my sound as soon after hitting just a few notes. What might be better for you, and a good deal cheaper, is to play in a piano shop (if you have one nearby) on a regular basis for a little while, choosing pianos you can't seem to control as well.

If you get too used to a mellow sound and tough action, you might lose a lot of control on lighter, brighter pianos. Furthermore, even if you get used to any kind of piano, you still might find yourself wishing to have a more "normal" instrument to practice on.

Good luck!