Terri Schiavo

[mikeyg]

See, one of the problems with society is that it is evil to tell the truth, while at the same time being evil not telling the truth.  (stands up and slams fists on desk) SOCIETY< MAKE UP YOUR DAMN MIND, JUST ONCE!!!!

[Hmoll]

I'll say it again.  What if she had taken care of all of that?  I know lots of people who constantly say "just pull the plug I wouldn't want to live like that!"  Some even write it into their wills with great conviction.  BUT WHAT IF THEY CHANGE THEIR MINDS!!??  Since we don't KNOW what Terri is thinking, I would never pull that tube if there was even a chance that she really decided she wanted to live and couldn't tell us.  I saw some of this when my dad had cancer.  When I saw how easily he could be "manipulated" (ok I don't have the nice mom some people have), I realized that he could sign the paperwork right there in front of me and I still wouldn't pull the tube!

So, you are in effect saying that no one has the right to instruct their family and doctors of their wishes regarding a dignified death when they are in PVS, coma, terminal illness, etc., by predetermining those wishes through a legal, binding and witnessed document. If that's what you think, then first of all, depriving people of that right goes against the opinions of a vast majority of people in the US - from very conservative to liberal - and second of all it is cruel and arrogant to ignore those wishes that were documented and witnessed during a time of lucidity simply because of the possibility that the patient might change their mind.

That's the more general. To be more specific, most of Terri Schiavo's brain has atrophied, and has been replaced by spinal fluid. She ain't changing her mind.

[Skeptopotamus]

yeah but maybe she would want to change her mind and just cant.  im not on either side i just like to stir the pot ^^

[mikeyg]

People who stir the pot get shot (there  is my creativity for the day)

[Skeptopotamus]

i havent been shot.

[pocorina]

The only problem I have with it is the way they do it.  It would be much more  "humane" to give her a drug than starving her to death, I would think.

 well, they're not allowed to give her a drug. Giving her a drug wud be outright killing her, but taking away her feeding tube is just "withdrawing treatment". The line between it seems to be too thin to me. thirteen days it took her to die. a drug would have been better.

well, she died today. I just heard it on the news 

[janice]

I am not only deeply grieved by this, but I am frightened--and you should be too, if you live in America  (sorry, but I'm not feeling too patriotic today.)  I'm frightened for ALL of us.  Who's next?  I'm tempted to go live in a cave.  Anybody want to join me?  We can grow our own vegetables!

[dinosaurtales]

I'd never make it as a vegetarian, so the cave idea is out.

<rant on - with sarcasm>  It just really warms my heart to hear the "pro-death-with-dignity" folks talk (with pride, too!) about how pleased they are that the courts "followed procedure".  Kinda reminds me of the nazis "just following orders".  Scare the **it out of me! Anybody who thinks it won't be them had better wake up and smell the coffee!  One auto accident  - and suddenly you are "inconvenient" to have around.  Trust me on this, I watched an otherwise loving and supportive family "manipulate" someone into "deciding it would be best to die now" rather than cause more expense and "pain" in the family.  It was all just to get rid of him as quickly and cheaply as possible and made me want to puke.  And before that I was all in favor of personal choice in this area!  But now I realize the person isn't always the one "making" his own choice, even if the words come out of his mouth!  Can you tell I have major issues in this area.  Basically, it boils down to everyone "speculating" that the person "probably wouldn't want to live like this blah blah".  But no one really KNOWS, so I tend to err on the conservative side of this one.  Sorry guys - I just don't see the "kindness" here.  Something really smells fishy in this one to me.  <rant off - sarcasm off>  i am very sad about Terri.  Whether she could think on her own is really only known to her if at all.  The autopsy will give the doctors more stuff to speculate on, but they still WON'T KNOW.   

[Skeptopotamus]

I am not only deeply grieved by this, but I am frightened--and you should be too, if you live in America  (sorry, but I'm not feeling too patriotic today.)  I'm frightened for ALL of us.  Who's next?  I'm tempted to go live in a cave.  Anybody want to join me?  We can grow our own vegetables!

caves are fun ^^ but do we have to be vegetarians?  cant we make periodical trips to civilization?  oh i dont think bernard likes me so i'm out tho.  actually........ no maybe it's jsut everyone else ><

[BoliverAllmon]

that family will be at odds with each other for ever now. I mean they already said they are having two seperate funerals. I read on a news site today that they are doing an autopsy on her to see what her condition was when her husband abused her. I had no idea he abused her. Could that have been what sent her into the heart problems? If so, I am really peeved at Michael. If it isn't that, then I am still staying neutral.

boliver

[mikeyg]

No, she didn't go into this condition because of abuse.  She was a bulimic who overdosed on drugs, which sent her into cardiac arrest.  Before doctors could revive her, her brain lost too much oxygen, causing immense damage.

[BoliverAllmon]

No, she didn't go into this condition because of abuse.  She was a bulimic who overdosed on drugs, which sent her into cardiac arrest.  Before doctors could revive her, her brain lost too much oxygen, causing immense damage.

that sucks. what kind of drugs?

[mikeyg]

I can't remember, I heard it in fox.  I'll look it up.

Did anyone else see the new southpark?  Hilarious.

[Hmoll]

that family will be at odds with each other for ever now. I mean they already said they are having two seperate funerals. I read on a news site today that they are doing an autopsy on her to see what her condition was when her husband abused her. I had no idea he abused her. Could that have been what sent her into the heart problems? If so, I am really peeved at Michael. If it isn't that, then I am still staying neutral.

boliver

There's no evidence that he abused her. All there is are lies from a lot of right wing blogs.

"They" are performing an autopsy on Terri on orders from Michael to dispel the abuse, condition of her brain, and other lies that have been flying around.

[Hmoll]

I can't remember, I heard it in fox.    

Figures.

She did not go into cardiac arrest because of drugs. She was bulemic, which caused an electrolyte imbalance. This is a typical side effect of bulemia.

[Floristan]

No, she didn't go into this condition because of abuse. She was a bulimic who overdosed on drugs, which sent her into cardiac arrest. Before doctors could revive her, her brain lost too much oxygen, causing immense damage.

...and I heard that she was bulemic and vomited so often that her body couldn't maintain a proper balance of electrolytes around her heart, so it stopped.  It stopped for 5 minutes before they revived her.  After about 2.5 minutes the brain starts to go.  By 5 minutes the cerebral cortex is gone.  She was dead and they revived her, knowing that if they succeeded she probably would have no activity in her cerebral cortex.  I suppose medical people (paramedics, etc.) can't refuse to revive someone if their spouse is there insisting they try.  Still, it's hard not to think that the "playing God" part of all this happened when she was revived...literally brought back from the dead.  I have difficulty believing that was God's will.  It seems more like man's hubris to me.  

[janice]

caves are fun ^^ but do we have to be vegetarians? 

Oh no!!  In fact, I am not a vegetarian.  I just threw in the "grow our own vegetables" for fun, because an old friend of mine moved to Europe somewhere to live with a group of hippies.  They live in tents and grow their own vegetables.  I just said that because it amuses me that they "grow their own vegetables"!

[galonia]

...and I heard that she was bulemic and vomited so often that her body couldn't maintain a proper balance of electrolytes around her heart, so it stopped.  It stopped for 5 minutes before they revived her.  After about 2.5 minutes the brain starts to go.  By 5 minutes the cerebral cortex is gone.  She was dead and they revived her, knowing that if they succeeded she probably would have no activity in her cerebral cortex.  I suppose medical people (paramedics, etc.) can't refuse to revive someone if their spouse is there insisting they try.  Still, it's hard not to think that the "playing God" part of all this happened when she was revived...literally brought back from the dead.  I have difficulty believing that was God's will.  It seems more like man's hubris to me. 

I have a friend who had a heart attack at the age of 21.  She died.  Totally and completely.  This happened to her while walking down a street in my suburb, which is a very quiet area, so no-one knew.  Luckily, a woman was cleaning her front windows, and suddenly noticed a person lying in the gutter.  She went outside, found my friend, and called the paramedics.  When they arrived, they managed to revive my friend, and took her to the hospital, where she had another massive heart attack and died once more.  Again, the doctors managed to revive her, and she was flown by helicopter to one of the leading Sydney hospitals.

I visited her as soon as I found out about it, and she was brain damaged.  She couldn't even recognise her own mother.  Her skin was grey.  Our friends and I spent as much time as possible with her, bringing photos and food and flowers and music to help stimulate her.

After a year, she had regained her memory, and was able to do very basic things needed to look after herself.  She returned to university, doing one subject a semester, and often failing that one subject - partly because she had forgotten what she had learned in earlier pre-requisite subjects, and partly because her brain had been damaged to the point where she lacked the concentration/memory required to sit the end-of-semester exams.

Last year, she completed her degree, and married her high-school boyfriend (who happens to be a very close friend of mine, and I met her through him).  She is not fully recovered; she cannot follow conversations which move too fast, she cannot deal with new situations at which most of us would not bat an eyelid (e.g. she can't work the lid of a type of jar she has never seen before, unless someone demonstrates for her).

But she is happy, and she is leading a full life, and you cannot say she is not entitled to this life.  Who can say that the paramedics were wrong to revive this dead girl?

I mourn for Terri Shiavo, whose every chance of life was taken away from her.  The doctors estimate my friend had been dead for 20 minutes or so, and when they revived her, they knew without a doubt that she would have suffered brain damage.  But all humans deserve to be allowed their chance to live.

[Muzakian]

I hadn't heard about the OD before, and I don't believe it's true. There's a lot of crazy rumours accompanying this case.

My main issue with it all is not that Terri Schiavo was condemned to death (because all the evidence suggests she was in a permanent vegetative state, and therefore no longer "alive" by popular definition), but that the case seems to be fueled by personal vendettas. Instead of trying to fulfil Schiavo's purported desires, I feel as though she was an unfortunate pawn amidst her husband's attempts to have vengeance on her parents. After all, the families have been legal enemies for many years now. The fact that Michael Schiavo won't even allow Terri's parents to attend her funeral says a lot. I know he claims he wants her funeral to be quiet and "dignified", but seriously, a parent's right to attend their own daughter's funeral must ALWAYS supersede a desire to hide from media attention. He's just a spiteful, selfish prick.

[lfischer]

A lot of the controversy seems to revolve around your own personal definition of 'death'. A lot of people seem to be defining it by the heartbeat. True, if someones heart has not beated for 5 minutes, then they would generally be called dead. But what if they're heart has only stopped for 30 seconds before being artificially restarted?
However its not the nicest thought, that someone can still be 'alive' after their heart has stopped.

[jas]

Can someone give me a rundown of what this is all about? I've heard about it, obviously, but I don't know much about the whole thing...
I don't watch the news, listen to the radio or read papers so the whole thing has all but passed me by! (I might as well join Janice in her cave for all I know about the outside world!)

Jas

[janice]

Galonia, THANK YOU for sharing the beautiful story about your friend!!  I am so thankful that she was able to have the necessary therapy.  I think that if Terri Schiavo had not been denied therapy, who knows what she would be able to do today!  Granted, she would probably never be the "old Terri" but each person responds to therapy differently.  So who knows what Terri's potential might have been.

[BoliverAllmon]

Galonia, THANK YOU for sharing the beautiful story about your friend!!  I am so thankful that she was able to have the necessary therapy.  I think that if Terri Schiavo had not been denied therapy, who knows what she would be able to do today!  Granted, she would probably never be the "old Terri" but each person responds to therapy differently.  So who knows what Terri's potential might have been.

why did he reject treatment anyway?