Why do I suck at trills?

[Waldszenen]

When I trill fast, my hand and wrist tenses up and my hand looks like it's been squashed by a truck and glued together again.

When I keep everything relaxed and not tense, I can't trill fast.

What do I do?

[BoliverAllmon]

keep practicing?

[Waldszenen]

ohhh gee thanks mate


 

[anda]

practice relzaxed at your current top speed - it'll improve. focus on relaxation.

also, use the search function - this has been discussed over and over.

best luck

[Waldszenen]

Oh cool thanks

[doowlehc]

I practise trills with

1) only using fingers
2) only using wrist rotation, and minimal finger movement
3) a synthesis of 1) and 2)

and I do that exremely slowly and evenly, gradually increase speed over say 1 month period until you reach your desired speed (assuming you practise trills daily for say 10 minutes - better split it into 2 sessions of 5 minutes)

[steinwayguy]

I practise trills with

1) only using fingers
2) only using wrist rotation, and minimal finger movement
3) a synthesis of 1) and 2)

and I do that exremely slowly and evenly, gradually increase speed over say 1 month period until you reach your desired speed (assuming you practise trills daily for say 10 minutes - better split it into 2 sessions of 5 minutes)

Neuhaus!

[pianodude]

The two ways of practicing above are correct.
Make sure you play only with your fingers. Once your hands etc get stiff, it means you play faster than what you can do. Practice very slowly and relax...

[BoliverAllmon]

ohhh gee thanks mate


 

no problem LOL

[lostinidlewonder]

Say play a DC# trill. Can you play the first note of the trill easy? the D? Of course you can. Now what about the next note. the DC#? Two notes should be easy enough to do. Now how about a turn, DC#D. That should be also easy. Now if i asked you to do 10 of those DC#D groups could you do them? Like play DC#D pause DC#D pause DC#D etc..  That should be easy enough. If you have any tension while playing these three notes then you have to target the problem from here first not the entire trill. If this is ok move on.

DC#DC# can you achieve this? And play it 10 times like before?
DC#DC#D?
DC#DC#DC# - which is now must the same as DC#D then C#DC#. Of course you do not accent the notes that would make them sounds like triplets but the sense of fingers is definatly that you feel the D then you feel playing the second C# which starts the next group of three, not just a two note back and forth shake.

Longer strings of trills are just bigger groups of smaller things.
DC#DC#DC#C#DC#DC#DC#BC#D
could also be seen as
DC#D  C#DC#  DC#D  C#DC#  DC#BC#D
could also be seen as
DC#DC#D   C#DC#DC#  DC#DC#BC#D

Which ever one make you more comfortable. Of course are only sensing those fingers touching the notes, not actually accenting them. It is almost as if you are feeling it as a beat in the hand, the first note of each group acts as if it where played on a beat. The palm may even dip a little each time it hits the beat but so long it doesn't affect the sound.
This is how you can break up a trill intead of seeing it just as two notes played x times together or somethign crazy.

[pizno]

Try using more side to side wrist motion, and keep the fingers on the keys.  Also, you can experiment with moving your hand 'up' the key as you trill, to change positions in order to reduce fatigue. 

[brewtality]

Tempest! where have you been? 
In order to contribute to the thread, I will add that I suck at 4-5 trills. I haven't used any wrist (fore-arm?) rotation, I will have to try this out.

[pizno]

Tempest? 

My cure for 4-5 trills is to try to avoid them.

 

[Waldszenen]

Tempest? 

My cure for 4-5 trills is to try to avoid them.

 

I used to be "The Tempest" on Chopin Files.....


And yeah, 4-5 trills suck. Come to think of it, 3-4 ones do too.

[bravuraoctaves]

I use:

For 1,2

High wrist

3,4

Straight wrist, 5 up a little bit

4,5

Low wrist

But I may be incorrect

[Waldszenen]

I'm not 100% sure on the wrist position; my teacher says that your wrist should remain even with your knuckles whatever you're playing, whereas Horowitz's wrist literally dipped way down when he trilled.


To each his own.

[loserbaby713]

I'd say it has to do a lot with finger strength.  To do that i practice using a met.  slowly speed it about two notches everytime you succeed.  Using your wrist doesnt help. 

[campanella]

I know how you feel. I'm tying to learn liszt's la campanella and have a hard time with those constant, annoying "drum-roll" trills. The way my teacher says to practice trills is to turn on the metronome and practice slowly after a while you can slowly speed it up until you can comfortably play at the proper tempo. If you twist your rist from side to side and drop your shoulders, you'll be able to relax your hand so it wont be so tense, also make sure you're using the right fingering. I like to trill with 3535353535 or 1313131313

[kghayesh]

Actually i think trills must be played only by fingers 12, 23, 13, 24. Because any other combination of fingers will build up much stress in your fingers.

[bravuraoctaves]

but remember that relaxation is your aim; it is not the means to acheive your aim.

[Waldszenen]

but remember that relaxation is your aim; it is not the means to acheive your aim.

Very true that is.


And kghayesh; in some pieces you NEED to do a 3-4 or 4-5 trill.

[BoliverAllmon]

Actually i think trills must be played only by fingers 12, 23, 13, 24. Because any other combination of fingers will build up much stress in your fingers.

except for la campanella right.

[musicsdarkangel]

When I trill fast, my hand and wrist tenses up and my hand looks like it's been squashed by a truck and glued together again.

When I keep everything relaxed and not tense, I can't trill fast.

What do I do?

Are you sure that your jaw is not moving?

My friend has that problem with trills, during a Bach P + F he looks relaxed except his jaw moves every trill.

I told him about this, he started relaxing it, and he sounds much better.

[Waldszenen]

o_O


Yes, I'm quite sure my jaw is fine.

[pocorina]

Haha.... I'm really good at all trills. The one I do best is 1/2. I am also quite good at 4/5. Incredibly, I am not all that good at 2/3. Though i am still very good at all of them, i meant in comparison

[Waldszenen]

o_O

That's quite an achievement.

[etudes]

for la campanella
i have much more problem with trill 12 and use the five and fourth (also thirds) and stay trill equal
the trill upper part i use 3 5 (but i think u should practise all the fingering)
and one thing for me to get that trills in the campanella is to dont think about it
yeah of course u have to drills with a trill problem in that trill but after a while (not so long) untill u can play (really not that fast)and then try to think more on left hand and then speed will come! try this

[outsyde yn]

hey my friend and I play this really fun game together, she's so good.  One of us sits at the piano and the other goes away, but not too far and just listens.    the aim of the game for the performer is to try to play trills with so many combinations of fingers, every combination I think, and not miss a single beat, so a person like the listener can not know when the finger combinations are switching. 
the goal of the listener is to try to hear the differences and tell the performer.  It's so fun!


bye,
Clair

[moderatissimo]

I have had a similar problem.
for me the most important thing is to improve your wrist. I lost this problem by practising the g# minor prelude by Rachmaninoff.

Its very important to begin practising trills with concret values. Because the other hand with the melody or passage needs a rhythmical fundament.
many piesces of JS Bach are ideal (D-minor Invention, f major prelude WTC I or the prelude of the 3. english Suite for example).

Very important too is to begin with short trills.

   

[moderatissimo]

I have had a similar problem.
for me the most important thing is to improve your wrist. I lost this problem by practising the g# minor prelude by Rachmaninoff.

Its very important to begin practising trills with concret values. Because the other hand with the melody or passage needs a rhythmical fundament.
many piesces of JS Bach are ideal (D-minor Invention, f major prelude WTC I or the prelude of the 3. english Suite for example).

Very important too is to begin with short trills.

    

[pbr2005]

Have you tried simply trilling slower?  There is no rule that says that trills must be executed at warp speed, and often they sound better a little slower.

[janice]

My teacher told me that when trilling on adjacent keys, that she finds it easier to use fingers that are not next to each other.  For example if trilling from C to D, to use 1-3, vs. 1-2.  Also, 2-4, vs. 3-4.  The 2-4 is kind of awkward, but I almost always use 1-3 and not 1-2.  Does anyone else find that easier?

[dinosaurtales]

A lot of it for me depends on the location of notes being trilled - i.e. black key to white above, white to white, etc.

But I am with Janice - much of the time I do best with a 2-4 or 1-3 combo.  Sometimes it's "best" to use 2-3, but I actually find that more difficult.  I have had to do 4-5 for short trills - 2 or 3 laps, but I think it would be beastly to do that one for very long, as in Beethoven's 111.

[Glyptodont]

I have some problem because I am left-handed, and my left-hand trills are very good.  But most trills are with the right hand, and sometimes I struggle at those-- they don't come so easily.

Let me point out that the speed of a trill is not the only criterion for a good trill.  An even trill is difficult to achieve. 

If you have difficulty with fast trills, slow down a little and work on even trills. A fast but ragged trill is hardly an accomplishment.

I have found that Chopin's music -- especially in certain places -- slower trills work very fine. 

[nanabush]

The only 4-5 trill in La Campanella it's not really a trill, it's just three beats like 4-5-4, any other spots I worked around 45 trills...For 4/5 trills I personally twist my wrist outwards, well not twist, but when my pinky plays the note, it's the closest part of my hand to the piano, so the rest of my hand is diagonal upwards from it...I lift the thumbside up, and I find it makes it much easier to play those trills, personal preference, I just find it easier to do that...