My best strategy to learn?

[eins]

I'm 56 and have finally committed to fulfill a dream: learn to play the piano. Needless to say I'm new here. Hi all!

The hardware is basically done, a new Perzina will be in my house in a week or so.

The hard part is yet to be decided: how to get instruction.

My plan is to attend MUS54 at Saddleback College, beginner level, twice a week for several hours, and practice at home every day.

My question: is that a good plan, should I look for smaller classes (where?), or should I stay away from that type of instruction and look for one-on-one instruction instead? How many hours would you recommend I take a week and what are the cost implications (ballpark per hour; I live in SoCal)?

At this point, I have set up appointments with two college piano teachers to sit in on their current classes, so I get a chance to decide which one I feel more comfortable with, and then start classes with that teacher in May (summer schedule).

Your comments and suggestions are very appreciated.

Arno

[betricia]

Hello Amo
I am in Surrey, England but could not resist replying to your post as I am the same age and started playing in September 04.  I got up this morning feeling despondent as I do not seem to be progressing at the rate people in this forum are. but your post has encouraged me again.  Thank you,  I am not in any position to give any advice but that has never stopped me before so why change ........... Anyway my 2 pence worth is to keep asking yourself why you wanted to learn.  I read that here and when I remember I think of listening to people playing and know I want to do that.  I can play some pieces and do enjoy them very much.  I read here about a piece called the "Sleeping Cat" and Bernhard (you'll get to know about him, he gives brilliant advice) and several people said what a lovely piece it was and good for a beginner.  I can now play this piece and I get such pleasure from it. Now and again though I get fed up as I am not as good as I want to be.  Nowhere near in fact but it takes years so I must have patience.  Another essentian piece of advice I have been given here.    There is masses to read in the posts and stuff to download.  You will read about Chang and his book and I have printed that off.   I wish you lots of enjoyment however you learn and you seem to have time and teaching available which is terriific.  I can't wait to hear of your choices and progress.  Us senior learners are in the minority here I think.  Good luck.
Patricia

[eins]

Glad I could encourage you Patricia, and you encouraged me too. I have a hunch this will not be easy, but Rome wasn't built in a day either, so let's get started and never give up.

I want to learn because every time I hear folks like Elton John play, that's what I want to be able to do, just for fun. Or classical pieces. Or jazz. I like it all but have to find my style and preference yet. I'm so excited and wish I could start this minute. Oh boy do I know how I want to play. Gooooooood! 

Will I find time for it? You bet! I may not have any, and I'm a great procrastinator, but I've always found time for the things I wanted to do. Only thing to watch out for is to have enough time left for the necessary things. Like work 

Wish I could hear you play, I'm sure it is awesome!
Edited to add: Since you started in September last year, you have such a huge lead, I'll never catch you. But I will do my best. Chang's book, huh?

Senior? Who's senior here? Not me, I'm only 56 

[dorfmouse]

Amo
There is so much useful stuff on this forum and sometimes you only come upon a wonderful thread by chance. Here is one to get you underway .. one of Bernhard's  (never ultimate!) lists

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.0.html

I've been taught in both situations, individually and group. Individually should obviously be more efficient  for your technical progress but piano learning can feel quite solitary and the group learning situation can be a lot of fun and gives you the valuable experience of playing in front of other people, which if you did right from the beginning should be a great immunisation against the dreaded performance anxiety. However, I went to my class when I returned to piano as an adult having had about 4 years' behind me. One of the best things for me was hearing a big variety of repertoire as people basically worked on whatever they pleased. I don't know if in a class all of beginners would everyone be working on the same pieces which might be a bit tedious? Just a thought.

And  Patricia!

I got up this morning feeling despondent as I do not seem to be progressing at the rate people in this forum are. but your post has encouraged me again.

You mustn't think like that; I think you can take quite a lot of what some people on forums say about themselves with a pinch of salt! And despite all the great advice that you can pick up here, piano playing is a hard-won skill  with lots of bumpy plateaux in the way up to each little peak of perceived progress. Remember too as an adult learner you are probably much too hard on yourself, it's very common.... I am 52 so speak with feeling! My piano teacher said to me, quite crossly for him, a couple of months ago, "Why don't you believe me when I tell you you play something well?" (Do you know the Musical Fossils site? https://www.musicalfossils.com/ It's a very interesting and perceptive read.)

Good luck to you both!

[berrt]

I'm 56 and have finally committed to fulfill a dream: learn to play the piano. Needless to say I'm new here. Hi all!

Hi Arno!
im from Hamburg/Germany 51y, playing (or better... trying to?) the piano for 1 year, so im in a similar situation with you and betricia. The most comforting thing to me with this forum is that every problem i experience is common to the average student.

But perhaps there are unique issues with beginners is their 50s and we could discuss these.

bye
Berrt

[eins]

dorfmouse, thanks for the link and the good information on group vs. individual. Your point of playing with an audience is excellent.

Berrt, lebst du noch in HH oder bist du auch in den USA? I'll continue in English so others can follow but I just relocated from Frankfurt seven years ago. Spent four wonderful years in HH, one of the most beautiful cities in the world.
So, do you take individual or group training? Do you think the other way would have advantages over what you are doing now?
Hummel hummel.

[berrt]

Berrt, lebst du noch in HH oder bist du auch in den USA?

im still living and working in hamburg.

So, do you take individual or group training? Do you think the other way would have advantages over what you are doing now?

i have single lessons 60min/week; i never had group lessons, so i can't comment on that. Hmmm... i cant imagine group training would give me much, i always have very specific questions and my teacher aways watches like an eagle at my hands. thyt would no tbe poassible.

bye
Berrt

[BoliverAllmon]

this is refreshing that not everyone on  here started at 5 and play the pants off the piano. It is nice to see a little bit of every kind of life working at fulfilling dreams

boliver

[betricia]

Hello again Arno
I felt I must tell you that my most difficult time of playing is when anyone is listening.  I even have difficulty playing in front of my teacher.  At my age!!!  I practise at home and am really pleased with the results and then I get to my lesson looking forward to letting my teacher hear me play.  I get nervous, make mistakes, get cross and wonder if she can possibly believe me when I say I played it at home perfectly.  So I am telling you this as I agree with  Dorfmouse totally.  Playing in a group will give you this valuable experience of playing in front of others.  I would say if you can then have both.  You cannot lose by having as much experience as possible.
Dorfmouse, thank you for your words of encouragement.  It is understandable that people have learned more quickly if they started as children but I won't give up.  I must be able to reach a reasonable standard by the time I am 70!
I have looked up the fossil site and thanks for that. 
Good luck to everyone but especially those late starters.  Keep it up.
Patricia

[silva]

I guess it depends if u want to learn to site read perfectly or just learn your favourite songs.

I teach myself and have done for 2 yrs, dont forget Art Tatum was mostly self taught.

I feel I am at a fairly good standard of playing for being self taught but I do tend to mainly play by ear as I only learn the songs I like and have heard (songs not always pieces)

my 2 cents

- Silva

[dorfmouse]

It is understandable that people have learned more quickly if they started as children but I won't give up.

Patricia
With your motivation I bet you're learning a whole lot faster and probably more efficiently than the majority of kids who are learning because they've been told to or whatever. Also people tend to apply different standards to children's progress ...think how much praise little Johnny gets for being able to finally play Baa Baa Black Sheep right hand only after maybe a month of protesting "practice" ....(you may guess I'm a teacher, though not of piano!) Children are generally praised lavishly for every tiny success and  are allowed a lot of time, why not you? We adult learners who face so many other demands on our time and energy should give ourselves lots more credit for our achievements at whatever level we're at. Yeah!

[bernhard]

Patricia
With your motivation I bet you're learning a whole lot faster and probably more efficiently than the majority of kids who are learning because they've been told to or whatever. Also people tend to apply different standards to children's progress ...think how much praise little Johnny gets for being able to finally play Baa Baa Black Sheep right hand only after maybe a month of protesting "practice" ....(you may guess I'm a teacher, though not of piano!) Children are generally praised lavishly for every tiny success and  are allowed a lot of time, why not you? We adult learners who face so many other demands on our time and energy should give ourselves lots more credit for our achievements at whatever level we're at. Yeah!

This is very true. Children’s learning abilities are vastly overestimated. Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2444.msg24025.html#msg24025
(Can you make it as a pianist if you start late?)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2976.msg26082.html#msg26082
(advantages of being a late beginner) – this one should cheer you up!

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2855.msg25276.html#msg25276
(where should one be after 10 years of piano study?)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3992.msg36199.html#msg36199
(do children learn faster than adults?)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5515.msg53745.html#msg53745
(do you need to start at 2 years old? Analogy with brain surgery)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3524.msg32403.html#msg32403
(adults learn faster than children)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,143.msg35967.html#msg35967
(differences in learning/teaching children and adults)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[betricia]

Dorfmouse and Bernhard, you are my heroes and have given me praise and encouragement with your comments and the mere fact that you have responded to my posts.  I love the threads you have posted Bernhard and they have cheered me up.  Yes Dorfmouse, it has taken courage to start late and we are great.  Well brave anyway.
Dorfmouse are you a sleepyhead?  Not in teapots surely?
Patricia

[dorfmouse]

No, but I live in a tiny sleepy village surrounded by HUGE forests!

[eins]

Thanks to all for your contributions. Bernhard, I've visited your links and they really lifted my spirit. What lifted it even more were my two class sessions at the local community college where I sat in on two teachers' classes to get a feeling about who I want to go with. One class was at an intermediate level, about music theory--piano related. I KNOW this is going to be so much fun for me, and I have a serious feeling that it will be easy too. I could hear what the students were supposed to hear, I could understand what they talked about, I learned that practice is key to master the new "language" of music and the transformation of musical ideas into sounds coming out of a piano.

The two teachers were quite different. One very soft-spoken (difficult for this hearing-impaired novice) but everything she covered seemed so easy! The other was firm and clear in her speaking and she went really fast over what she had to say. I think I'll go with the first one and just find a seat in the front row and make sure I always bring my hearing aids.  Classes start in May.

My final piano purchasing step is the day after tomorrow, and if they prepped it right, I'll buy it. It is going to be a 51" Perzina and I can't wait to have it at home. Heaven!

[chrissi]

Another „senior“ here....... 

By a lucky chance I have found this forum and I can’t stop reading at all. I’m 40 and I started learning to play the piano 11 month ago and a new world has opened it’s doors for me! I’m totally sure this was one of the best descisions of my life because playing makes me so very happy. My husband often has to take me away from my instrument by force  because I don’t notice the time passing by while I’m playing.

@Eins
You wrote:
"I want to learn because every time I hear folks like Elton John play, that's what I want to be able to do, just for fun. Or classical pieces. Or jazz. I like it all but have to find my style and preference yet. I'm so excited and wish I could start this minute. Oh boy do I know how I want to play. Gooooooood!“

Hi, Arno!
I can underwrite every single word! It is like discovering a new universe for me to produce music by my own hands. Only little pieces of music still, but trying to improve is just a pleasure itself. By the way: I congratulate you on your new piano! I saw the pictures in another thread and it looks really fine! I am still playing at home on a Technics-Keyboard, but this will change within two weeks, because then I will get my new piano, too. Oh, I‘m so impatient to have it at home!!

@Berrt:
Hallo Berrt!
Wie schön, dass man Hamburger überall treffen kann! Hamburg, das Tor zur Welt, oder  ? Ich bin in HH geboren und lebe nach wie vor in dieser schönen Stadt.

This forum is really a fantastic place with so much precious advise and helpful people. So I think this will be one of my favourite places in the internet.

Best wishes,
Chrissi

[berrt]

Another „senior“ here....... 

Hi! Nice to have you here, Chrissi!

@Berrt:
Hallo Berrt!
Wie schön, dass man Hamburger überall treffen kann! Hamburg, das Tor zur Welt, oder  ? Ich bin in HH geboren und lebe nach wie vor in dieser schönen Stadt.

Vor allem trifft man welche in Hamburg :-))) - jedenfalls können wir dann hier die Anfänger-Probleme austauschen -

bye
Berrt

[eins]

Wie schön, dass man Hamburger überall treffen kann! Hamburg, das Tor zur Welt, oder  ? Ich bin in HH geboren und lebe nach wie vor in dieser schönen Stadt.

Na das is ja ein Ding! Ich bin selbst ein part-time Hamburger. Habe vier herrliche  Jahre dort gelebt (79 bis 83) aber bin jetzt im sonnigen Kalifornien. Zurück zur Forum-Sprache.

Thanks Chrissi for the encouragement and for sharing your enthusiasm. It helps to see others go through the same phases to bring oneself back to reality and accept that I can't be a maestro in a week or  two  . I just started working through Chang's book and find it fascinating. Glad I found that now, at the beginning of my career.

Congratulations on your new-to-come piano. What are you going to get? Something made in your home city, by any chance, hint, hint? I know everybody in Hamburg is super wealthy, hehe. In any event, you sound like you deserve a good instrument more than many. Ahh, the new piano smell...

[stormx]

Hurra for us, the team of adults beginners !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

PD: i am 36 and began my piano lessons 5 months ago (from scratch).

 

[berrt]

I know everybody in Hamburg is super wealthy, hehe. Ahh, the new piano smell...

Sure... anyway, i tried to save my money - still dont know why they caught me at the door after i stuffed that model D under my coat....

bye
Berrt

[chrissi]

Hi, all you piano-freaks hardly over 18!!

Thank you for your warm welcomes, nice to meet you all here!

Vor allem trifft man welche in Hamburg :-))) - jedenfalls können wir dann hier die Anfänger-Probleme austauschen -

Good idea! Along the way I can improve my english a little bit by translating piano problems 

Na das is ja ein Ding! Ich bin selbst ein part-time Hamburger. Habe vier herrliche Jahre dort gelebt (79 bis 83) aber bin jetzt im sonnigen Kalifornien. Zurück zur Forum-Sprache.

Thanks Chrissi for the encouragement and for sharing your enthusiasm. It helps to see others go through the same phases to bring oneself back to reality and accept that I can't be a maestro in a week or two . I just started working through Chang's book and find it fascinating. Glad I found that now, at the beginning of my career.

California, the sunshine state! Must be a good place to live. At the moment it is sunny at Hamburg, too. I really love spring!

I have found Chang's book, too and I try to learn with his advises. Especially learning first hands separated before playing hands together is very helpful for me. My teacher told me the same, but it is good to read it as well and the explanations are very informative.

Congratulations on your new-to-come piano. What are you going to get? Something made in your home city, by any chance, hint, hint? I know everybody in Hamburg is super wealthy, hehe. In any event, you sound like you deserve a good instrument more than many. Ahh, the new piano smell...

Sure... anyway, i tried to save my money - still dont know why they caught me at the door after i stuffed that model D under my coat....

I tried to convince my husband, that a Steinway D would fit perfectly in the middle of our living room instead of our dining table. With an nice white table cloth on it, nobody would remark it  . But my hubby was against it 
So I will get a Petrof 127 upright. After weeks of trying several pianos from different manufactures this was my first choise. Due to the fact that I know nearly nothing about the quality of pianos - exept if I like the sound or not - my teacher had a look on the Petrof, too, and he was very enthusiastic about the quality, repetition etc. So I guess it is a good choise. There might be better ones, but their prices are so much higher and even as a super wealthy Hamburger  that was too much for me. At the moment it is built in Czechia and it should be delivered to Hamburg in the 17. week. I'll kill the piano seller, if not!!  I am so curious about it!!!

Best wishes,
Chrissi

[chrissi]

Ta Ta Ta Ta!!!!!!!

I want to share with all of you my happiness!!! My brandnew Petrof upright has been delivered last Friday and it's so beautiful!!! So a dream came true for me. A dream in cherry wood. Every time I enter the room I have to throw a glance at it.

And whow, what a sound!! I hope, our neighbours are not going to kill me.... because my abilities as a pianist do not yet correspond to the volume of this wonderful piano . The first time I tried to play, every wrong note nearly let me get a heart attack. I really have to get used to play without earphones. And now there are no excuses any more for bad habits caused by playing on a keyboard instead of a piano

So I promise myself: This piano shall never be one of those unused pieces of furnitures. I always feel sad when I meet people who have a piano at home but do never play on in. I want to play!!! And I want to learn to play good!! This is my aim and have to achieve it. And I will enjoy the way to get there.

Best wishes,
Chrissi - with piano

[eins]

Congratulations Chrissi. The Petrof is a wonderful instrument.

If your neighbors complain, tell them the alternative to a piano would have been a dog! 

According to NLP, to make your promise more effective, rewrite it in present tense.

Beste Grüße,

Arno

[Glyptodont]

Eins--

Enjoyed this discussion immensely.  I am 64. 

I played as a child, and once again took lessons from about 1990 to 1993.  Then for some reason I sort of dropped it.  At the time our kids were taking lessons on our black 5'8" grand, so at least we heard piano music in the house.  But then for six years or more, the grand stood silent. 

Oddly, we kept having it tuned.  Perhaps to assure the quality of its silence!     But then I thought, what a waste!  So last September I started preparing Christmas music for the season.  In about February I started lessons again.

When you people say you are "old" and you are 36, 40, or 50 years of age, you are not really OLD.  I'm not either, but certainly older than you.

I had a notion -- wrong, it turns out -- that I could never get speed, and that I was doomed to play slow pieces, or play lively pieces under tempo.  Because, you know, hey, I'm "old."  I am delighted to tell you in key passages I can attain really remarkable speed.  Some of the Chopin waltzes, where the runs are not terribly difficult but where you just HAVE TO really move.  One of the keys to speed is to play enough each day so you develop an intuitive instinct for exactly where they keys are.  You can stretch and they are there.  And to write in fingerings, so you don't keep making the same mistake in the same place.  I sometimes line out the fingering provided on the music, and write in my own.  For one thing, I probably have larger hands than what the editor envisioned. 

One of the respondents mentioned learning entirely on one's own.  Well, I don't agree. My piano teacher has helped me so much with technical points.  For instance, I didn't know what mordants are, and how they differ from trills.  You find a lot of them in Chopin.  She teaches me these sorts of points all the time.  Also, I had a bad habit of playing notes on the page even if they were tied from a prior measure.  Many of these careless habits have responded to her teaching.  Also the wheel of fifths for the keys, and the chord structures.   

I probably am not a good advisor for you, but -- IMHO -- I suspect you need a good piano teacher, one with a college diploma in music and with a good flair for people.  But I suspect you do not need a GREAT piano teacher.  Such as a university professor of performance arts or something, as you were discussing.  You likely want to play some beautiful material for personal satisfaction, and you need feedback that you are playing the music well, not just in some half-baked way.  You do not need a Horowitz or a Rubenstein for that. 

Perhaps when you are further down the road, you could better profit from some very expensive teacher.  But hey, if you have plenty of bucks, why not get the best?  It all depends on your situation. 

To keep your interest, you might consider a mix of fairly simple show tunes along with the classical pieces.  Try to stay way from "dry as dust" scale studies. You have to keep your sense of adventure alive!   I was into Chopin waltzes until recently, and started to burn out, so I'm taking on a piece by Bach.  An adult learner is not like a child, who must complete each piece in a lesson book, and then --robot-like-- move on to the next.

Being able to read music well is a skill that will come with time.  Even then, a good teacher is still worth the $$$. 

Enjoyed your posting, good luck ! !   

[chrissi]

Congratulations Chrissi. The Petrof is a wonderful instrument.

Thank you, Arno!
And you? Are you still in love with your Perzina?

If your neighbors complain, tell them the alternative to a piano would have been a dog!

I think your suggestion with the dog is great! I could rent a Dobermann or Bulldog for a day and let him sit down near the garden fence. That should convince them

According to NLP, to make your promise more effective, rewrite it in present tense.

Sorry, if my english has some deficits, but I don't practice enough  .....what the hell is NLP?

When you people say you are "old" and you are 36, 40, or 50 years of age, you are not really OLD.  I'm not either, but certainly older than you.

Welcome to the club, Glyptodont!

You are absolutely right, we all are not old. It is perhaps the feeling of being a fossile between all those teenagers playing since they were 3 years old. So it is good to get some encouragement from adults who started also as a "late beginner".

I probably am not a good advisor for you, but -- IMHO -- I suspect you need a good piano teacher, one with a college diploma in music and with a good flair for people.  But I suspect you do not need a GREAT piano teacher.  Such as a university professor of performance arts or something, as you were discussing.  You likely want to play some beautiful material for personal satisfaction, and you need feedback that you are playing the music well, not just in some half-baked way.  You do not need a Horowitz or a Rubenstein for that. 

It's funny, but my teacher fits perfectly to your describtion. He has a college diploma in music and worked in former times as a music teacher at school. Today he has some students and sometimes he has an engagement as an entertainer. His knowledge of music theory, composers, pieces etc. is immense and he always knows what is good for me. Sometimes he plays for me and I love listening to him. We both enjoy the lessons very much. So I am convinced he is the right one for me.

Best wishes,
Chrissi

[eins]

And you? Are you still in love with your Perzina?

Totally! I just had a love affair with her last night, composing my first piece. I sat from about 9PM to 1:30 AM, the longest I've ever played (okay, I've only had her for less than a month). I found this link https://www.pianoforkids.com/PianoInstruction/lessonpage.asp?lessonnumber=1&c=0 Watch the video under 'Take 5'. Going by this concept, I wrote a succession of intervals that harmonize well. LH only so far, next is to add RH. Then I can go and play something nice anywhere 

I could rent a Dobermann or Bulldog for a day and let him sit down near the garden fence. That should convince them

.

The idea here is to have him bark, real loud. Barking or piano, that has to be their choice 

NLP is actually a non-piano term. I'm sure you have heard of Neurolinguistische Programmierung. Most of our American friends here will be unfamiliar with this term because the shrinks here don't like the concept. It would put them out of business real fast, hehehe.

Thank you Glyptodont for your story and the inherent encouragement.
Wow, it must have sounded real high-level what I mentioned about the college class. I certainly don't want to downplay their professional level but, applying what you suggest, I think both of the teachers I will have are on a comfortable level for me to start learning. I am sure I won't be overwhelmed. Besides, I'm a warrior, and I do whatever it takes. AHO!

Off to work...

[joshu]

I'm in the same boat as you.  Mike Melvoin told me to play simply play fewer notes play everything play all the time have as much fun as possible.  I am not committed (I hope)  I want to be a real player because it's a contribution to the world as is apple pie or anything else good.  I also often say to myself "work brings results".

[eins]

Today was the first class of my first semester at college level. Juanita, our teacher, broke us (24) up into two groups of 1st and 2nd semester students. In our 1st semester group, we started right at the beginning of Alfreds Group piano book 1. The basics. White keys and black keys, A, B, C and so on, you get the idea. It was actually fun and I enjoy working in a group, guided by a teacher, vs. doing it alone at home, where you have nobody to tell you how to do certain things, nobody to critique you, nobody to demonstrate your progress to.

So, I'm happy with this first step in guided learning. This summer class will be six weeks, after which I will go into a 2nd semester group, for six more weeks. After that, I'll see if I want to continue group classes or start with a personal teacher.

The monetary aspect is fantastic: $36 for the full six weeks. I guess, one single personal hour will be more. Will the results from a personal teacher be so much higher too? That is my question to you more experienced pianists out there.