Sorabji

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I have known, since the day I joined this forum, that many of you dislike Sorabji's music. I hope to change your minds in some way, or at least have you give more of Sorabji's music a chance. I may not be successful, but I'm sick of seeing people bash his works, after only hearing one (bad) recording. So, here goes -

A year ago, I bought just about every CD of Sorabji's music I could find. When it all arrived, I listened through it all in one day.

And I loved it!

It was all beautiful, exquisite music, hardly dissonant or percussive in any way. His Le Jardin Parfume could have very well been one of the beautiful pieces I've ever heard in my life. His Fantasia Espagnole is a delightful piece, very, very similar to the style of Ravel, with suprisingly lively (and catchy) melodies. His 1st Piano Sonata is similar to Scriabin, while his 2nd and 3rd are nightmarish and catastropic.

So, one thing has to be established - if you heard the Madge recording of the OC, YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED! That is not what the OC sounds like, and it is not what Sorabji's music typically sounds like either!

If you have heard his Fantasia Espagnole, you would know what I'm talking about. It's a wonderful piece. It is a shame that it hasn't become standard repetoire (though it is terribly difficult in parts).

I hope to be able to upload bits of some of these recordings for you to enjoy. I don't think you will be disappointed. You could literally go to sleep listening to some of Sorabji's music. He really is not a Modern composer in the true sense of the word. His music is more Impressionistic, rather, and sometimes very beautiful.

As for those of you who have heard these other pieces, what fo you think?

[Lance Morrison]

the fact that he wrote music on four staves that lasts 4 hours just naturally turns a lot of people off.....besides that, while his music is similar to Debussy and Ravel, it has different elements in it which are unique to Sorabji and are not easily digestable for most people......for instance, his numerous fugues are boring for many people, but I delight in how obsessive they are, though perhaps they are a bit too strict for my taste

yes, i never have anything good to say

edit: I have to add....that once i got into listening to the middle of the OC, i started questioning his compositional skills, and couldn't bring myself to listen to the rest (loved the first parts though)

[fred smalls]

Hmm... i have never heard his music before, if it sounds like Debussy or Ravel, it must be quite good. Although to me, it seems ridiculous that he has pieces that are four hours long (how would they fit that on a disk, tape, lp?) and I can certainly see why people wouldn't like his music. I'll have to get a recording (that isn't eight hours long mind ).

[Sergey R]

So, one thing has to be established - if you heard the Madge recording of the OC, YOU HAVE BEEN FOOLED! That is not what the OC sounds like, and it is not what Sorabji's music typically sounds like either!

I'm going to have to bring up an old post that I completely agree with on this:

BTW my new plan is to compose a 24hr work.  If anyone calls it crap, I'll simply accuse them of not listening to it.  If they've done that, I'll say that it needs repeated listens to be appreciated, and if they still persist in their criticisms, I can simply respond that the recording that they listened to is unfaithful to the score.  Of course all recordings will be unfaithful to the score, as this piece will be impossibly difficult.  My plan is bulletproof.

I dislike Sorabji because this here is the basis of anyone's argument against anyone who opposes his works. "You haven't listened to it", "It wasn't played correctly in the recording", and what do you expect when the piece is four hours long and on four staves?

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

The point I'm trying to make is that Sorabji wrote more than one piece of music! The OC is not his most beautiful work. It does contain many dissonances. But Madge's interpretation/playing is terrible.

I would know. I have not only analyzed many movements of the OC (as well as attempted to play them) but have entered a few movements into Finale, just to see what it really sounds like. And it sounds NOTHING like Madge's recording.

The one movement that I feel is the worst is the Coda-Stretta. Look -




First, play it through yourself (slowly) and try to imagine what it sounds like. Now listen to how Madge plays this -

https://www.johncareycompositions.com/Coda-Stretta (Madge).mp3

And tell me if it's remotely similar!

[Etude]

I have not heard much more of Sorabji's music, only some samples, from the Sorabji archive website of the Pastiche on Habanera from Carmen, the Fantasie Espagnole, both played by Michael Haberman, samples of the Transcendental Etudes played by Frederick Ullen and a short sample of Le Jardin Parfume by Yonty Solomon.  I'm going to have to buy some more Sorabji recordings.  All I currently have are both OCs by Ogdon and Madge.

EDIT:  The FE wasn't played by Habermann, it was played by Donna Amato

[steinwaymodeld]

I wonder if Hamelin is gonna record the 100 Transcendental Etudes of Sorabji, he did edited the first 18 of them

I'd rather enjoyed the first sonata, and I have heard that's Hamelin's first release ever, the Sorabji.

[Skeptopotamus]

someone told me about not a 4.5 hour sonata, but an eight hour one.

[fred smalls]

Yes, I remeber hearing something about an eight hour piece by Sorabji on this forum too...........

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

The name of the piece is Sequentia Cyclica Super "Dies Irae" Ex Missa Pro Defunctis. It is not a sonata. However, his 5th Sonata "Opus Archimagicum" is 5-6 hours long, and probably harder than the OC... insanity if you ask me. 

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

-

[Skeptopotamus]

wow you really know your sorabji!

hmm.   what do you think is like an actually learnable piece by him that could ever be used in a competition?  i am familiar with i'd say.......hm.........0 of his music.   I can play the Nancarrow Tango? and the Bowen and Prokofiev Toccatas and Babajanian Poem and Ligeti Etudes No. 4 and 6 and the HIndemith Suite "1922".   Are there any pieces in my grasp do you think?

[fred smalls]

Skepto, Ur lenny right?

[Skeptopotamus]

hehe that is funnier than you think.  You're new so you wouldn't get why it's funny tho.  sorry the joke is going right over you.


but no i'm not.

[fred smalls]

ok just wondering.........
I have obviosly missed something.....

[Skeptopotamus]

haha no not really.  Sorry It's just i was a big fan of lenny and made a big deal about that alot.

sorry sorabjiguy for getting off topic -.-


he started it!  *points at fred smalls*  =P

[fred smalls]

LOL. Yes i was about to modify that thread with an apology for going astray, but when I went to modify you had already posted so it was too late.. But yes, it was my fault...... I am truely sorry........
To get back on topic, is Sorabji officially credited with the hardest piano piece ever? Or does it not count because his pieces are SO ridiculesly insane?
(It was a shot at getting back on the original thought train.....)

[Skeptopotamus]

personally i dont think he wrote the VERY hardest piece.  There are some real sickos out there.  Finnissey and Ferneyhough both are out to kill any pianist's hands.

anyways.... what about my question?


and everyone back on topic about how pretty some of sorabji's music is.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Many of Sorabji's Pastiches are what I would consider "learnable". You should look into them. Here is the Habanera from Bizet's "Carmen" -

https://www.gamingforce.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=31823

It really depends on what you're up for.

Anyway, I would say that Sorabji did, indeed, write the hardest music. Sorabji is the furthest you can go until you reach impossibility, in my opinion. Though Opus Clavicembalisticum is not really his hardest piece, he wrote many other pieces of almost double (possibly triple) the difficulty. In my mind, composers like Nancarrow or Finnissy don't count.

Anyway, back to the original topic, I encourage everyone to buy Michael Habermann's wonderful CD of Sorabji's transcriptions. Habermann really does have the right touch for Sorabji's music. Here are two interviews with him on the subject of Sorabji (notice the playing in the background as well!) -

https://www.michaelhabermann.com/sounds/_index.html

And yes, I do know my Sorabji! I've always found him to be a fascinating composer, so I learned a lot in a very short amount of time. I also have talked to Mr. Alistair Hinton, curator/director of the Sorabji Archive on several occasions.

[Da Bachtopus]

In my mind, composers like Nancarrow or Finnissy don't count.

What do you mean by "don't count"?  I didn't think 'The History of Photography in Sound' was for a player-piano!  Do you just mean that they're still not as difficult as Sorabji?

What do you think of his 'Organ Symphony No.1'?  I can't listen to more than a minute of it: the dissonance is overbearing, and I can discern very little 'music' there.
I do, however, enjoy Hamelin's recording of the first sonata.

[Etude]

What do you think of his 'Organ Symphony No.1'?  I can't listen to more than a minute of it: the dissonance is overbearing, and I can discern very little 'music' there.
I do, however, enjoy Hamelin's recording of the first sonata

Could I please hear some of the organ symphony no. 1?  And is his organ music similar to his piano style? 
I can only imagine what something like OC might sound like on an organ. 

[Lance Morrison]

it is tough to judge completely the merits of the organ symphony based on the currently availible recording. while what I can hear clearly doesn't for the most part interest me too much, the recording quality (or perhaps just the organ used) sounds like sonic sludge

[Etude]

.

[Skeptopotamus]

wow i just want to congratulate ludwig van rachabji on making a sorabji thread that didnt degenerate!

[Etude]

Yep  

STICKY... STICKY... 

[Etude]

Maybe its because it doesn't have "OC" or "Opus Clavicembalisticum" in the title.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Maybe its because it doesn't have "OC" or "Opus Clavicembalisticum" in the title.

True.

 

I just put the first page and a bit of the first piano sonata into NWC, I didn't like the look of this sonata when I first saw the score because I couldn't see any repeated material whatsoever, but now I think its really good.  The style is completely different from Opus Clavicembalisticum, its almost Romanticism, and I will probably soon get Marc-André Hamelin's recording of it.

BTW, does the sonata have any repeated themes?

I own the Hamelin recording, and it's very nice. Yes, it is almost Romanticism. The same could be said of his Habanera. There are repeated themes, but it takes several listens to recognize them. I do, however, prefer the 2nd Sonata (though it is more dissonant) and I think that if the 3rd is ever recorded (is it?) then I would like it best of all, just by seeing and playing through the music. The ending is marked "Cataclysmique: Calamiteux"!

I think it might be a good idea to make this a sticky, in order to prevent all of the new members starting threads asking about Sorabji.
 

[Skeptopotamus]

i dun know if this will get a stickeh, but what would you say is the most difficult sorabji piece, and by how much is it the most difficult?  And how well can you play any of the sorabji stuff?

[Etude]

.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I am not sure what the most difficult Sorabji piece is. I believe that the most difficult one to be performed and recorded is the OC. It is... very difficult.

I think that some time when I'm not as busy working on the Rachmaninoff Concerto, I'll learn Sorabji's Fantasia Espagnole (definately). So far, this is his one piece that I find the easiest to listen to, and I think average audiences would enjoy it. I can play his Minute Waltz Pastiche and his Habanera from Carmen Pastiche, as well as Introito, Preludio Corale, Adagio, and Fantasia from the OC, but the rest I have merely fiddled with, as I do not have the time to really settle down and work on something by him.

I have made a bet that I could learn and record Hamelin's Prelude to an Imaginary Symphony (Homage to Sorabji) in a week. I only have a few more days left. Wish me luck!

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

https://www.gamingforce.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=35509

Here is the Hamelin piece for anyone who is interested (2 more days to go!).

[Skeptopotamus]

good luck!

[Etude]

Yes, best of luck Ludwig van Rachabji, and I would love to hear some recordings of your Sorabji if at all possible. 
.

[Skeptopotamus]

awrr everyone on this thread is better than me ><


sorabji would explode my hands.

[Etude]

I'm sure he wouldn't, only if you did a Madge, which I hope you never will.   

Oh and I listened to those two interviews with Michael Habermann, very interesting, and I finally learned how to pronounce his name!!!!  K-eye-Kos-roo Shap-ore-ji Sorabji 

[Etude]

.

[Skeptopotamus]

?

[Da Bachtopus]

Could I please hear some of the organ symphony no. 1?  And is his organ music similar to his piano style? 
I can only imagine what something like OC might sound like on an organ. 

Imagine no longer!

https://home.ripway.com/2005-4/281835/SorabjiOrgan.mp3

This is the first five minutes of the final movement, which repeats in part the very opening (the whole symphony is just shy of two hours, and I confess that I have not listened to it all).  The recording is by some chap called Kevin Bowyer.  It's not very good.

I didn't pay for this, just took it from the Music library and copied it to my hard drive as a curiosity.  Likewise, the Ogdon OC and the Habermann CDs.  But I can actually hear music in those (not necessarily all the way through).  The Organ Symphony is quite well-desribed as "sludge".  I certainly think the Hamelin recording of the Sonata is worth owning, though.

[Etude]

wow, the acoustics are terrible, this really is unlistenable for me.

[Skeptopotamus]

so,  how's the progress on learning that piece ludwig?

[Rez]

Ludwig Van Rachabji,

Have you, or anyone else, heard Habermann's recording of the "Introito" and "Choral" from that-piece-which-must-not-be-named?  Habermann had a CD, now out of print, titled A Legend in His Own Time. It started out with these two selections.  I think that Habermann played with great insight into the work.  Far superior in sound and execution to Madge's; haven't heard Ogdon.  I've heard that Ogdon was pretty far gone by the time he recorded it 

[Etude]

I have not heard the two movements played by Michael Habermann, but I have heard most of the Ogdon recording, which is much better than Madge but still highly inadequate to allow anyone to enjoy the piece for what it is.

[Etude]

I just ordered Le Jardin Parfume played by Yonty Solomon.  I'm dying to hear it all the way through  . 

[thierry13]

What's the piece played in background in the first interview? It's...weird but... just beautiful but really weird! It totally changed my view of sorabji's music. The only thing is that... it doesn't seem to get somewhere. No particular melodies to identify at first listening and things like that. I know there are, but they're hard to hear when you don't really know the music allready. If the score is online and it's not a too long work i would love to learn it!

[Etude]

I don't know what piece this is, but I am sure Ludwig van Rachabji will know. 
.

[thierry13]

"Flowing" - Fantasy "Sommessamente," - First Fugue "Nearly Full Organ," - Tight Tail


That's what the altavista traductor says  ... he could not traduct the second word... sure of it?

[Etude]

The spelling is correct, so I have no idea.   

[Etude]

.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

What's the piece played in background in the first interview?

The piece played in the background was Le Jardin Parfume. The bit at the end (with the runs) is the Prelude from the Prelude, Interlude, and Fugue.

[thierry13]

Do you have any sheet music of it? And how long is it? And is it the hardest part of it, or the easiest ?