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Topic: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)  (Read 16510 times)

Offline ennar

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Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
on: March 30, 2005, 07:33:40 AM
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Yes, at some stage you will have to get really organised. The way you are practising is the way beginners go about it. This is how the pros go about it:

1.      Consider three completely different levels of practising/learning: short term (what you do day-to-day), middle term (monthly), long term (1- 5 years).

2.      Start with the long term: Which pieces would you like to be playing in one year’s time? In five year’s time? Do not worry about being over ambitious. At the end of the year you can review your goals. Sit down and make a list of them. For the purposes of illustration, say that your list of desirable pieces at the end of 5 years is 100 pieces.

3.      Plan your monthly work. Using the 1-5 year list, distribute these pieces over twelve months. Again do not worry too much about being able to do it, as you go along you can reevaluate your goals. However try to work on at least 5 pieces a month, but no more than 30 pieces. For the purposes of illustration, say that you are going to work on 10 pieces a month. Now make table with these ten pieces ocuppying the first column and 30 columns (or 31 depending on the month). Everyday you are going to work on these ten pieces, and tick in the corresponding column if you did it or not.

4.      Plan your daily work. You are going to work 10 – 15 mins daily on each of your 10 pieces. After you finish your 10 –15 minutes, forget about it until the next day. Move on and do another 10-15 minutes on the next piece. These 10 15 minutes do not need to be consecutive. They can be any 10-15 minutes anytime of the day. This is the beauty of this system, you do not need a block of 2hs 30mins (you can do it if you want though), but you can spread it in ten blocks of 15 minutes.

5.      The most important requirement for this method to work is consistency. You must do it every day.

6.      The second most important requirement is that you have a specific goal that can be achieved in 15 minutes. So if you are learning a new piece, this may mean that you will be working on the first two bars. If you cannot master two bars in 15 minutes, next day do just one bar. Next day do the next bar, and so on.

7.      Do not work on scales /arpeggios separately. Practise the scale of your piece, and do it as part of the 15 minutes. Imagine your piece is in A minor. That is the scale you will practise. First day, just play the notes, one octave only: your aim is to learn the notes, not to play the scale. This should take only a couple of minutes. Then move on to the piece an do a single bar, or two bars hands separate.

8.      Next day, do the scale again. Do you know the notes now? Then work on it hands separate two octaves, your aim is to master the fingering. Do your piece’s two bars. Have they been mastered? If not repeat the previous day work, if yes, move on to learn it hands together.

9.      Next day practise the scale in hands separate, but in clusters of notes. Then your piece.

10.      Keep a music journal where you write briefly where you are at, and what your next steps are, so the next day you know what to do.

11.      Since you are doing ten pieces, chances are that you will be covering a lot of scales everyday this way. You may choose your pieces so that they cover certain specific scales.

12.      At the end of the month you will have learned certain pieces, and others you will be still learning. The learned pieces are replaced by new pieces. The others go on to the next month. You must wait until the end of the month to replace pieces, even if you have learned them in the first week.

13.      If you choose your pieces so that they cover different techniques, you will not need to do technical exercises (drop Hanon – waste of time – if you want to do Czerny, just treat it as a piece. But why not do Scarlatti instead? It will give you exactly the same benefits of Czerny, but it will be a beautiful addition to your repertory). Scales and arpeggios however are very necessary (not as technical exercises, but as foundation to musical understanding).

14.      After 2 or 3 months you will be able to review your goals and adjust them. You will also be able to plan better your middle and short term work.

15.      This practise does not involve only work at the piano. You may spend your 15 minutes listening to CDs of the piece you intend to learn, analysing the score in order to decide how to break it down in 15 minute sections, memorising the piece from the score, etc. (in short, mental practice).

16.      The key word here is discipline. Never practise by sitting at the piano to play whatever you feel like. It is perfectly all right to do so, but it does not count as your 15 minutes practice. And if you do it, make sure you share it with someone else, this way you will be practising performance.

This is the tip of the iceberg, but it should get you started.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

i am not understand for planning work for the days. Do u mean when u choose the piece to be learn today. You start devide it into sessions?

so if we can't finish the session in 20 minutes, we just leave it for tomorrow and continue the same process? am i right?

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3.      Plan your monthly work. Using the 1-5 year list, distribute these pieces over twelve months. Again do not worry too much about being able to do it, as you go along you can reevaluate your goals. However try to work on at least 5 pieces a month, but no more than 30 pieces. For the purposes of illustration, say that you are going to work on 10 pieces a month. Now make table with these ten pieces ocuppying the first column and 30 columns (or 31 depending on the month). Everyday you are going to work on these ten pieces, and tick in the corresponding column if you did it or not.

this is where i don't understand. u make table and ocuppying columns for pieces and days. what does it mean by tick in the corresponding column? do u mean by if the 1st session is : 1-6 bars. and i master it so i tick on it. wat if i can't master it, like i only master RH 1-4, LH 1-5? it is quite confusing.

And do u mean by already include "session to be learnt" in the table?

i have also read many other posts like 7x20 rules. i understand that but for this table i am quite confused. Help plz.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #1 on: March 30, 2005, 09:29:17 PM
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i am not understand for planning work for the days. Do u mean when u choose the piece to be learn today. You start devide it into sessions?

Er… I don’t choose a piece “to learn today”. I choose (say) 30 pieces I want to have mastered at the end of the year (say). Now I go through these pieces and sight-read them, analyse them, etc. and break them down into manageable sections.

What I aim to learn on a day to day basis are these passages – organised in time from the most difficult to the easiest, and always adding up so that at the end of a month (say) I will have either the whole piece mastered or a substantial chunk of it.

Here is an example using three pieces:

1.   C.P.E. Bach Fantasia in D minor (Wq 117/12)

Here is my suggested plan to learn this piece in 8 practice sessions:

Session 1: Bars 5 – 6 (these are the most difficult bars)
Session 2: Bars 1 – 2
Session 3: Bars 2 – 5
Session 4: Bars 1 - 6
Session 5: Bars 6 – 9
Session 6: Bars 1- 9
Session 7: Bars 10 – 14
Session 8: Bars 1 - 14

Each of these sessions should take 20 minutes at the most to learn (if not you will need to break them further). But assume it does.

So on day 1, you start practice session 1: bars 5 – 6. At the end of the session you should be playing these two bars like a pro. (How do you do that? It is not simply repeating the 2 bars for 20 minutes, you know. There are all sorts of approaches and tricks – but it just will take to long to go through all that). Anyway, during these 20 minutes you will do a number of things that will result in you totally learning these two bars.

On day 2, you are going to tackle session 2: bars 1 – 2. But before you even think about doing that, you should start by going over bars 5 – 6 again. Three things may happen:

a.   you can play it perfectly straight away. If so, play it 3 or 4 times and move on to bars 1 – 2.

b.   You cannot play it perfectly at all. Wrong fingerings get on the way, you sort of know it, but not at all at the level you achieved yesterday. If so, forget about bars 1 – 2 and again dedicate this practice session to bars 5 – 6. Relearn them without skipping any steps and without cutting any corners by going through the same activities you went through the previous day and that led you to mastery (this is the bit that no one wants to do). To your surprise, what took yesterday 20 minutes, may take only 4 – 5 minutes today to accomplish. If so, you still have 15 minutes left over: use them to learn and master bars 1 – 2.

c.   You completely and totally forgot it. In this case, just repeat practice session 1. I assure you that the next day you will be on above, and by the third day you may well be on [a].

Assuming case [a] above, when the 3rd day arrives, you start by going through bars 5 – 6 and bars 1 – 2. This should take no more than a couple of minutes (unless you are on or [c]) but I will assume [a] to keep this short. So use the rest of the practice session to tackle bars 2 – 5.

When the fourth day arrives, use the practice session to join everything together: Bars 1 – 6. Now you will not need to repeat the previous practice sessions everyday, just repeat this session since it encompasses every single session so far.

Keep going like that until you reach day 8. By then the piece should be perfect.

So if everything goes right, in 8 days you should have mastered this piece. Don’t stop practising it! keep reserving a 20 minutes session until the end of the month to polish and do any further work that needs to be done on it. At the end of the month this piece will be a part of your repertory. If you did everything right (no one can do that), then you should never forget this piece, even if you stop playing it for 10 years. If you do forget it from neglect, just repeat the process.

2.   John Blow : Sarabande in C.

Session 1: bars 1 – 4
Session 2: bars 5 – 8
Session 3: bars 1 – 8
Session 4: bars 9- 12
Session 5: bars 13 – 16
Session 6: bars 1 – 16

Everything I said above applies here. The difficulty of each section is more or less the same, so you may as well learn the piece from beginning to end (all bars are equally difficult or equally easy).

3.   Chopin: Cantabile.

Session 1: bars 3 – 4 (add first beat of bar 5 – bar 3 is the most difficult bar)
Session 2: bars 1 – 2 (add first beat of bar 3)
Session 3: bars 1 – 5
Session 4: bars 5 – 8 (add first beat of bar 9)
Session 5: bars 1 – 8 (add first beat of bar 9)
Session 6: bars 9 – 14
Session 7: bars 1 – 14 (the whole piece)

I have chosen three short easy pieces. And I am assuming a total beginner with no technique. The point is simple: any piece of any difficulty can be learned this way. But some advanced pieces when broken down to allow a beginner to learn them may turn up to have 200 or more practice sessions, and many of these sessions will have to be repeated for 5 – 6 days before one can move on to the next practice session. So it is not really a matter of difficulty, but of time. So it is far better to work on pieces that allow quick progress, so that when one does get to advanced pieces, the sections tackled in the practice sessions can be much larger, and you can master a pieces after a number of days/weeks, rather than months/years. Just make sure that whatever piece you are learning is a worthwhile addition to your repertory (the 3 pieces above are).

This example is completely hypothetical. Different people at different levels may need to break down the sections even further. Other people may be able to tackle even bigger chunks. This is just to explain the procedure.

[to be continued…]
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #2 on: March 30, 2005, 09:53:57 PM

[…continued from previous post]

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so if we can't finish the session in 20 minutes, we just leave it for tomorrow and continue the same process? am i right?

You must always finish a section on your 20 minute session. If you cannot, the section you chose to practise was too large. Cut it in half. If you still cannot finish it, cut it in half again. Eventually you will get the right size. If you apply these principles consistently over a few months on a number of different pieces, soon you will develop enough experience to know straightaway how much work, and how much time it will take you to learn any piece.

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this is where i don't understand. u make table and ocuppying columns for pieces and days. what does it mean by tick in the corresponding column? do u mean by if the 1st session is : 1-6 bars. and i master it so i tick on it. wat if i can't master it, like i only master RH 1-4, LH 1-5? it is quite confusing.

And do u mean by already include "session to be learnt" in the table?

Now let us organise the 3 pieces above in a table over ten days (the numbers refer to the specific practice sessions):



This table summarises around one hour of practice (give or take 10 minutes), split in three practice sessions of around 20 minutes.

The bulk of the practice session (15 – 18 minutes) is always devoted to a new practice session. At the start of the session, 2 or 3 minutes are devoted to review the previous day’s work. Because the sessions are so small, you do not need more than that amount of practice. But consistency is the key. Do it everyday and at the end of the week you have three new pieces in your repertory. Of course none of these piece is very difficult (Sarabande: grade 3; Cantabile: grade 4; Fantasia: grade 3). But they are all superior pieces of music.

Now the table above, shows us the plan. But we know that things rarely go according to plan. So a table that shows the actual progress of the student might look like this:




(a)   It took the whole of the section to remaster the difficult session 1.

(b)   Session 1 still not good, and session 3 also nothing to talk home about, so instead of moving on, the student repeated the same work of the previous day.

(c)   Although session 4 in general was holding together well (session 4 includes all of the previous passages), there were lots of problems on the difficult passage of session 1, so this was again repeated this day.

(d)   Again, the passage in session 1 was still sort of falling apart, so the student continue to work on it. (So as you can see, the most difficult passage gets practised the most naturally due to it being tackled first of all).

(e)   Even though session 3 includes session1, the student is insecure enough about the passage to spend some of the practise session working on it by itself.

(f)   Session 1 is a real pregnant dog, so the student keeps at it, while using the bulk of the session to tackle a new passage. S/he may even break down session 1 further to concentrate only on the problem area – which sometimes may be as little as 2 notes.

(g)   The light at the end of the tunnel: Session 1 is truly mastered and seamlessly incorporated into session 5.

(h)   This piece went according to plan. At this point one may replace it with a new piece altogether. So that the table at any month shows a variety of pieces at different stages of completion: some have just started, some have been going on for a couple of months, and some are about to be completed.

Remember that for reasons of brevity I have made the table with only 10 days, and three pieces; it should really cover a whole month. And it is always a good idea to keep working on the piece everyday – even if you have mastered it – until the month ends. After that, all you need to do is to play the piece as often as you like. So the best way to practice pieces you have mastered is to perform them. Keep a list of pieces to perform with you and rotate them, so that you are not always performing the same pieces, and so that you rotate your repertory pieces in a way that all get performed equally.

Believe me, if you follow this approach, in no time at all you will find yourself with 10 – 15 hours of repertory.

One last thing: Nothing of this is written in stone. You will have to adapt and experiment with it until you find what works best to you.

I hope this is clearer now.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #3 on: March 30, 2005, 09:55:58 PM
P.S. Somehow the line between columns 2 and 3 in the tables above is missing.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Bob

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #4 on: March 31, 2005, 12:26:17 AM
I appreciate the advice Bernhard. 

Some concerns...

It's broken down into "doable" sections.  That can work and makes sense.

Seems to all work on one layer though -- performance.  What about time to study and absorb the piece? 

Or for tackling something you can't do?  Say, playing ppp full chords quickly.  Something you're just not going to get in a week or two.  What do you do then?

So that's basically, what do you do if you don't have the technique?  Especially if a challenging technique is only used in one place and you can play the rest.

What about being able to hear the piece?

And what about time to ponder and plan?



Just some thoughts I had when I read it.  I like the completeness of the idea -- a beginning and an end.  I get bogged down when it comes to actual application.  I crash in the details and never have an end.

Any ideas? 

I would guess that everything I said above could be planned out the same way.  It would just mean less practicing on the piano for some parts.  Once the score is absorbed, practice could focus solely on actual playing.




other notes:
(complete mastery v. things that need to be maintained)
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline Bob

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #5 on: March 31, 2005, 12:57:38 AM
What level is considered ok for the practicer to move on?  I suppose that would have to be determined by the individual.

For example, I practice measure 1.  I get the notes and rhythms down, add dynamics, etc.    Or so I think....  because very soon I realize I may not be holding the notes out the right length, so that should be fixed.  I'm not doing all the articulation consistently, so that needs work.  The piece may take a lot of mental effort, so I would think I don't "really" know it until it gets easier.  It may be stressing my physical abilities a little, so I wonder if I really know it if I'm straining a little to play it.  But wait... I'm still only working on measure 1.  It's quite good know (although I've lost the feeling of emotion on it), but the rest of the piece still needs to be worked on.

Is the answer that you set your own limit on what "mastery" means?



... What about making the piece flexible for different pianos?  Being able to play things smoothly or more staccato?  Or is that something to work on only before a performance?

... or reading the music?


Bernhard, do you have a plan like this for developing as a "full pianist" and a complete musician?  ie being able to sight-read, studying, etc., etc., etc....
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #6 on: March 31, 2005, 07:40:34 AM
Thx for the table. i finally understand.

The table is far more better then words to describe it in details.

I am new to this forum and fortunately found out sir Bernhard's excellent post on this. i would like to learn more pieces in a shorter period of time rather than having hard and long time building up repertoire.

Thx alot.

Would u give some suggestions or advice on this tread?

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7785.0.html

thx :)

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #7 on: March 31, 2005, 03:36:26 PM
I think after we devided the pieces into pieces, we should then, let's say in the table :

Day      |     1    |     2     |      3     | etc.

name   |      1   | (blank) | (blank) | etc.


i think this is a better way. Like we practise and work out on the 1st session in day 1. after mastering day 1 work we can then fill in the (Blank) wat we then plan to be done. Because if we organise the work 1st and try to follow and fail, it is quite frustrated to reorganise it. Doesn't it?

So wat i think is like:

Session 1 : Bar 1-12

i could just master the first 4 bars in 20 minutes, so it will be continued the next day. And the table plan will be like below:   

Day      |     1    |     2     |      3     | etc.

name   |      1   | 1         | (blank) | etc.

Is it a better idea?

thx. i hope my words are understandable as i am not english-ed.  ???
   

Offline mxs

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #8 on: March 31, 2005, 05:12:36 PM
Anybody has an idea where to get score for these three pieces without buying a whole book of other pieces with it? I can't find it anywhere where I usually go on the web.

Thanks

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #9 on: March 31, 2005, 08:34:55 PM
Anybody has an idea where to get score for these three pieces without buying a whole book of other pieces with it? I can't find it anywhere where I usually go on the web.

Thanks


Here are the three pieces mentioned in my answer (reply #1):

Sarabande


The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #10 on: March 31, 2005, 08:35:40 PM
cantabile


The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #11 on: March 31, 2005, 08:36:18 PM
fantasia

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #12 on: March 31, 2005, 08:41:54 PM
Seems to all work on one layer though -- performance.  What about time to study and absorb the piece?

The table above refers to work actually done at the piano. As I have written elsewhere, I believe 90% of the work should, be done away from the piano. These 20 minute sessions are for work at the piano. Do the pondering and studying and absorbing before you ever get to the piano.

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Or for tackling something you can't do?  Say, playing ppp full chords quickly.  Something you're just not going to get in a week or two.  What do you do then?

 These sessions are exactly to do what you can’t do. If you can do it, you don’t need to practise it. Just play it! And if you cannot get something in a week or two, you keep at it until you can (or – if that is feasible – you cut it in half). Somethings do take weeks to figure out how to do. But once you figure out how to do them, mastering them should be fast and straightforward. Your body usually knows what to do. Anything that the body rebels against is usually the wrong way to go about it. If you have to constantly practise a session because it keeps slipping away from you, you are doing it the wrong way. Usually the solution is pretty simple – a change of fingering, a way to move the arm, finding the proper distance from the piano etc. – but it may take a long time to figure out this very simple solution. Once you find it, you will kick yourself for not having figured it out earlier. This is of course the main reason for having a (knowledgeable) teacher: s/he will save you a huge amount of time.

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So that's basically, what do you do if you don't have the technique?  Especially if a challenging technique is only used in one place and you can play the rest.

If you don’t have the technique, you acquire it! But how do acquire it? First of all you must understand what technique is. In the case of piano playing it reduces itself to a way of moving. Again I have written a lot about this, so instead or repeating myself, I direct you to these threads:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4/topic,4880.3.html#msg46319
(how to acquire technique and what technique actually is)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4385.msg41226.html#msg41226
(Technique – technique is personal and relative to the piece – Fosberry flop – the best books on technique)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4880.msg46339.html#msg46339
(definitions of technique: quote from Fink, Sandor and Pires – Example of the A-E-A arpeggio)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,1867.msg14268.html#msg14268
(Getting technique from pieces – several important tricks: hand memory, dropping notes, repeated note-groups)

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What about being able to hear the piece?

I am assuming you are not deaf. ;D

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And what about time to ponder and plan?

What about it? Sure, make the time to ponder and plan. A few days ago someone asked the following question: “I will not have a piano for eight months, what should I do to keep practising?” And my answer was exactly that: ponder and plan.

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Just some thoughts I had when I read it.  I like the completeness of the idea -- a beginning and an end.  I get bogged down when it comes to actual application.  I crash in the details and never have an end.

There are basically two stages to any project: plan your work and then work your plan. My first answer on this thread concentrated on “working the plan”, but surely you must have the plan. I provided the plan ready made in the form of three examples. This is of course just the tip of the iceberg. It is not just a matter to break down a piece in any number of sections. There was a lot of planning work done to get at that particular arrangement. In addition to breaking down the piece in sections, the piece was analysed, the score rewritten, fingering added, movements investigated, constant listening of the piece on CDs by different pianists, and so on and so forth. It would take about 200 pages to describe about 20 % of the full process of learning a piece from beginning to end. (Some of you out there may know what I am talking about). I can only answer specific questions about specific problems – and even so the answers are already mammoth answers! :P But the truth is out there. Have a look here, for instance:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2255.msg19129.html#msg19129
(practising long pieces – Bernhard’s approach – Good discussion if one should or should not listen to CDs - Slow motion practice, comparison with walking/running)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2599.msg22431.html#msg22431
(How long does it all take? –  self-taught students, makes the cake analogy, learning is not gradual , comparison to reading, different ways of learning, how to learn to drive a car, the dispersive method of teaching, and a 15 list to “disperse” learning).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2615.msg22522.html#msg22522
(Piece analysis –  delay going to the piano and spend most time analysing – Comparison with the process of film making)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4244.msg39203.html#msg39203
(How long to practice – having an aim, achieving it and moving on – How to define aim)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5555.msg53811.html#msg53811
(how long do you practice? It depends on what is meant by practice)

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I would guess that everything I said above could be planned out the same way.  It would just mean less practicing on the piano for some parts.  Once the score is absorbed, practice could focus solely on actual playing.

Quite. ;)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #13 on: March 31, 2005, 08:47:24 PM
What level is considered ok for the practicer to move on?  I suppose that would have to be determined by the individual.

For example, I practice measure 1.  I get the notes and rhythms down, add dynamics, etc.    Or so I think....  because very soon I realize I may not be holding the notes out the right length, so that should be fixed.  I'm not doing all the articulation consistently, so that needs work.  The piece may take a lot of mental effort, so I would think I don't "really" know it until it gets easier.  It may be stressing my physical abilities a little, so I wonder if I really know it if I'm straining a little to play it.  But wait... I'm still only working on measure 1.  It's quite good know (although I've lost the feeling of emotion on it), but the rest of the piece still needs to be worked on.

Is the answer that you set your own limit on what "mastery" means?

Have a look here:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3561.msg31700.html#msg31700
(mostly about the 7 X 20 principle, how do you know when you mastered a section, when to use the methods, and when they are not necessary – investigating the reasons for difficult)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4689.msg44184.html#msg44184
(20 minutes – practice starts when you get it right – definition of mastery : learned – mastered – omniscience – Aim for easy – final speed in practice must be faster than performance speed – Example: Chopin Op. 10 no. 2 – outline – repeated note groups – HS x HT)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4750.msg45125.html#msg45125
(more details: learned – mastered –omniscience – why repertory must be paramount – how to work on 20 pieces per month – a case for easy repertory – importance of discipline and of having a plan – analogy of mastering a piece and making wine – musicality is ultimately good taste – Example: Beethoven op. 49 no. 2- A list of progressive repertory to lead to Rach prelude op. 32 no. 5 – mastery is when it is easy)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5177.msg49229.html#msg49229
(more on 7x20 – what it means to master a passage)

Quote
... What about making the piece flexible for different pianos?  Being able to play things smoothly or more staccato?  Or is that something to work on only before a performance?

I certainly hope you work on these things before a performance, not after! ;D

Quote
Bernhard, do you have a plan like this for developing as a "full pianist" and a complete musician?  ie being able to sight-read, studying, etc., etc., etc....

I would hope so! ;)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #14 on: March 31, 2005, 08:49:58 PM
I think after we devided the pieces into pieces, we should then, let's say in the table :

Day      |     1    |     2     |      3     | etc.

name   |      1   | (blank) | (blank) | etc.


i think this is a better way. Like we practise and work out on the 1st session in day 1. after mastering day 1 work we can then fill in the (Blank) wat we then plan to be done. Because if we organise the work 1st and try to follow and fail, it is quite frustrated to reorganise it. Doesn't it?

So wat i think is like:

Session 1 : Bar 1-12

i could just master the first 4 bars in 20 minutes, so it will be continued the next day. And the table plan will be like below:   

Day      |     1    |     2     |      3     | etc.

name   |      1   | 1         | (blank) | etc.

Is it a better idea?

thx. i hope my words are understandable as i am not english-ed.  ???
   




Yes, of course, you should leave the table blank and fill it in as you progress. I filled the spaces to show some different possibilities.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.








The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #15 on: March 31, 2005, 08:51:08 PM
Thx alot.

Would u give some suggestions or advice on this tread?

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7785.0.html

thx :)

You are welcome.

I am afraid I do not have anything to add to what other people said. Remember: the more specific your question, the more useful the answer is likely to be. ;)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline Bob

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #16 on: March 31, 2005, 08:56:42 PM
Thanks Bernhard! :)
Favorite new teacher quote -- "You found the only possible wrong answer."

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #17 on: March 31, 2005, 09:13:16 PM
Thanks Bernhard! :)

You are welcome. :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #18 on: April 01, 2005, 07:48:00 AM
Quote
You are welcome.

I am afraid I do not have anything to add to what other people said. Remember: the more specific your question, the more useful the answer is likely to be.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I would like pieces by scarlatti and romantic period in grade 8 or slightly higher then that . THx

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #19 on: April 02, 2005, 08:42:36 AM
Chopin Sherzo Op. 31 No. 2      
Session   1   63-69
Session   2   70-76
Session   3   77-83
Session   4   84-90
Session   5   91-97
Session   6   98-104
Session   7   105-111
Session   8   112-118
Session   9   119-125
Session   10   125-128
Session   11   130-163
Session   12   165-180
Session   13   181-192
Session   14   260-272
Session   15   273-280
Session   16   281-293
Session   17   295-305
Session   18   305-312
Session   19   312-322
Session   20   322-329
Session   21   330-333
Session   22   334-337
Session   23   338-341
Session   24   342-345
Session   25   346-349
Session   26   350-353
Session   27   354-360
Session   28   383-395
Session   29   464-466
Session   30   467-470
Session   31   472-475
Session   32   476-479
Session   33   480-483
Session   34   484-487
Session   35   488-490
Session   36   491-494
Session   37   495-498
Session   38   499-502
Session   39   503-506
Session   40   507-510
Session   41   511-512
Session   42   513-515
Session   43   516-519
Session   44   520-523
Session   45   524-527
Session   46   528-531
Session   47   532-535
Session   48   536-539
Session   49   540-543
Session   50   544-547
Session   51   548-549
Session   52   550-551
Session   53   552-553
Session   54   553-554
Session   55   555-556
Session   56   557-558
Session   57   559-560
Session   58   561-562
Session   59   563-564
Session   60   565-566
Session   61   567-568
Session   62   569-572
Session   63   574-579
Session   64   580-592
Session   65   593-602
Session   66   604-615
Session   67   616-623
Session   68   712-715
Session   69   716-719
Session   70   720-723
Session   71   724-728
Session   72   728-736
Session   73   736-743
Session   74   744-747
Session   75   748-750
Session   76   751-754
Session   77   755-758
Session   78   759-764
Session   79   765-775

I spent almost an hour to count the bars of sherzo no.2. Phew. Is it ok like this?
I think it needs a few more session for a whole phrase to be played together.

Offline mxs

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #20 on: April 02, 2005, 02:25:30 PM
Bernhard,

thank you very much for the scores. I am just in process to put all notes together, print the scores and try it.

Thanks again.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #21 on: April 02, 2005, 03:39:34 PM
Bernhard,

thank you very much for the scores. I am just in process to put all notes together, print the scores and try it.

Thanks again.

You are welcome. :)
The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #22 on: April 02, 2005, 03:42:08 PM
Chopin Sherzo Op. 31 No. 2      
Session   1   63-69

...


Session   78   759-764
Session   79   765-775

I spent almost an hour to count the bars of sherzo no.2. Phew. Is it ok like this?
I think it needs a few more session for a whole phrase to be played together.


Ok. You have divided the piece in small sections. But the way you did it, you will need 79 sessions. Even if you can deal with one session a day, it is going to take you almost three months to master all these sessions, and then you will need to put it altogether.

Have you had a good look at the score (while listening to the CD)?

Let us examine just the first 264 bars of this piece.

I will not organise it in terms of difficulty (which I suggest you eventually do, that is work on the most difficult sessions – for you – first), but from bar 1 to bar 264,so you get an idea what you should be trying to do.

The first 264 bars can be mastered by tackling it as seven practice sessions only. How?

First practice session: Bars 1 – 48.

How can you tackle such a long passage in a single practice session? Simple: there is a lot of repeats. In fact this whole piece is so repetitive that you can learn it by learning about 60 – 70 bars. In this particular session you start bay working on bars 1 – 9. This should be easy enough. If you have problems memorising the chord sequence in bars 6 – 9, isolate it for repeated-note-groups treatment.

Having mastered bars 1 – 9, go straight to bars 14 – 17, they are almost identical to bars 6 – 9. Again use repeated note-groups. There are only 5 chords, so this should take 5 minutes at the most. Bars18 – 24 are quite elementary, so you should be albe to learn them in a couple of minutes.

Now simply join together bars 1 – 24. Easy? I thought so.

Bars 25 – 48 are an almost repeat of bars 1 – 24. The differences are in bars 30 – 33, bars 38 – 41 and bars 42 – 48. Again, work on these three sections in isolation and then join them together from bar 25 – to bar 48.

Finally put together bars 1 – 48. You should be able to master this in 20 – 40 minutes easily.

Now just keep repeating this section in the days to come (while you are tackling the other sessions in parallel). This is quite a large chunk – and very important in the piece too – so as soon as get the technique (movements, fingerings and so on) under your belt start straight away working on the musicality. Do not be fooled by the apparent simplicity of this first session. In particular the pair of triplets can be a real nightmare to get just right.

Second practice session: Bars 49 – 65.

Learn this hands separate first. You may have to work quite a while on the scale runs until they become fast and smooth. Again there is a lot of repetition: bars 49 – 52 are the same as bars 57 – 60, so concentrate in getting bars 49 – 52 absolutely prefect and then you will not need to waste any time in bars 57 – 60. Likewise the RH of bars 53 – 56 is the same as bars 61 – 64. And – listen to this! – the LH of bars 62 – 64 is again exactly the same figuration but one octave lower. So you can alternate hands in this passage: play RH bars 53 – 57 and then LH bars 62 – 64. Once you get the hang of these smaller sections, start putting them together. Again, you should be able to master this whole passage in 20 – 30 minutes.

So, the first day you mastered session 1; the second day you are still working on session 1 but starting to direct your attention to the more musical aspects of the passage, and you are also learning session 2.

The third day you continue to work on these two sessions, polishing and perfecting them, and you start on practice session 3.

Third practice session: Bars 65 – 96.

Have you noticed that the first bar of this section is the last bar of the previous section? This will provide for an overlap. Whenever you break down a piece in sections you must always overlap sections in order to avoid hesitations and stuttering when you join the section later on.

Now this may seem like a hefty section to tackle, and it is. However the figurations are very similar and the texture is straightforward: melody in the RH, arpeggio accompaniment on the LH.

You are going to break down this section in three workouts.

1.   Outline. Rewrite the score so that you only have the RH melody , and on the left hand the first note of the arpeggio figuration. Learn this whole passage with hands separate, then join hands. At the end of it you should be playing the melody accompanied by the bass notes – without the fast arpeggio figurations. This should be easy. At the same time, you can concentrate completely on musicality, since the technique to play it in outline is trivial.

2.   Left hand figurations. This is the true difficulty in this practice session. There are 32 bars, and they rarely repeat (If you ignore the first bass notes, and only look at the five next notes, you will see that bar 65 = bar 83; bar 66 = bar 70; bar 68 = bar 71; bar 74 = bar 77; bar 76= bar 79, bar 80 = 81 = 82; bar 85 = 86; bar 89 = bar 90; bar 91 = 92 and bar 93 = 94).

The best way to tackle the left hand is to do repeated note-groups, taking each bar as a unity. Divide the 32 bars into 8 bars and apply repeated note groups to each of these 8 bars. This will take something like 45 – 60 minutes per 8 bars, so you will not be able to tackle this practise session in a single day (unless you do several practice sessions in a day on it).

So, if you dedicate one practice session a day for this piece, this third practice session will require a minimum of six days to cover: One day for the outline; four days for the LH and the last day for HT (see below).

3.   Having mastered the outline of this passage, and having mastered the left hand, now you must put back the arpeggio figurations in it. The best way to do that is to keep the LH going and drop the RH notes one at a time.

Fourth practise session: bars 96 – 117.

This is really a recap of the previous session with the melody being played in chords. Again follow the same scheme: outline, LH and hands together. Except that now most of the LH figurations will have been mastered, so you should be able to tackle this practice session in 20 – 40 minutes.

Fifth practice session: bars 117 – 130.

Piece of cake. No difficulties here. (Meanwhile you are still working on the other practice sessions in parallel)

Sixth practice session: Bars 1 – 130

Now you are going to join everything you have been working on so far. Most of the work here will be making sure the transitions are smooth (they should be, we have been overlapping all along) and working on the musicality of it all.

Seventh practice session: Bars 1 – 264

What? 264 bars?

Yes, it is all a huge repeat! The only bars that are slightly different are the following:

Bars 148 – 149; bars 172 – 173; bars 179 - 180 and bars 233 – 234.

Start the practice session by thoroughly mastering these 8 bars, and then put the whole thing together.

There! 1/4 of the piece mastered and memorised in seven practise sessions and twelve days (hopefully). :D In fact it is more than 1/4, since this whole section will repeat later on. :P

Of course, you should not move to the next session until the one you are in is mastered, so it may take you more than 12 days to cover these 7 practise sessions. It may also be that the size of sessions I suggested may be overambitious (a beginner would never be able to do it – but a grade 8 student should have no problems).

In any case, my main point here was to show how the division in sections is a consequence of analysing the score: seeing which bits repeat, so you don’t need to practise more then strictly necessary, and you go on to playing the piece as soon as possible.

I will leave the rest of the piece for you to organise in sessions as homework. ;)

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #23 on: April 03, 2005, 05:05:09 AM
Quote
Ok. You have divided the piece in small sections. But the way you did it, you will need 79 sessions. Even if you can deal with one session a day, it is going to take you almost three months to master all these sessions, and then you will need to put it altogether.

Have you had a good look at the score (while listening to the CD)?

Let us examine just the first 264 bars of this piece.

I will not organise it in terms of difficulty (which I suggest you eventually do, that is work on the most difficult sessions – for you – first), but from bar 1 to bar 264,so you get an idea what you should be trying to do.

The first 264 bars can be mastered by tackling it as seven practice sessions only. How?

First practice session: Bars 1 – 48.

How can you tackle such a long passage in a single practice session? Simple: there is a lot of repeats. In fact this whole piece is so repetitive that you can learn it by learning about 60 – 70 bars. In this particular session you start bay working on bars 1 – 9. This should be easy enough. If you have problems memorising the chord sequence in bars 6 – 9, isolate it for repeated-note-groups treatment.

Having mastered bars 1 – 9, go straight to bars 14 – 17, they are almost identical to bars 6 – 9. Again use repeated note-groups. There are only 5 chords, so this should take 5 minutes at the most. Bars18 – 24 are quite elementary, so you should be albe to learn them in a couple of minutes.

Now simply join together bars 1 – 24. Easy? I thought so.

Bars 25 – 48 are an almost repeat of bars 1 – 24. The differences are in bars 30 – 33, bars 38 – 41 and bars 42 – 48. Again, work on these three sections in isolation and then join them together from bar 25 – to bar 48.

Finally put together bars 1 – 48. You should be able to master this in 20 – 40 minutes easily.

Now just keep repeating this section in the days to come (while you are tackling the other sessions in parallel). This is quite a large chunk – and very important in the piece too – so as soon as get the technique (movements, fingerings and so on) under your belt start straight away working on the musicality. Do not be fooled by the apparent simplicity of this first session. In particular the pair of triplets can be a real nightmare to get just right.

Second practice session: Bars 49 – 65.

Learn this hands separate first. You may have to work quite a while on the scale runs until they become fast and smooth. Again there is a lot of repetition: bars 49 – 52 are the same as bars 57 – 60, so concentrate in getting bars 49 – 52 absolutely prefect and then you will not need to waste any time in bars 57 – 60. Likewise the RH of bars 53 – 56 is the same as bars 61 – 64. And – listen to this! – the LH of bars 62 – 64 is again exactly the same figuration but one octave lower. So you can alternate hands in this passage: play RH bars 53 – 57 and then LH bars 62 – 64. Once you get the hang of these smaller sections, start putting them together. Again, you should be able to master this whole passage in 20 – 30 minutes.

So, the first day you mastered session 1; the second day you are still working on session 1 but starting to direct your attention to the more musical aspects of the passage, and you are also learning session 2.

The third day you continue to work on these two sessions, polishing and perfecting them, and you start on practice session 3.

Third practice session: Bars 65 – 96.

Have you noticed that the first bar of this section is the last bar of the previous section? This will provide for an overlap. Whenever you break down a piece in sections you must always overlap sections in order to avoid hesitations and stuttering when you join the section later on.

Now this may seem like a hefty section to tackle, and it is. However the figurations are very similar and the texture is straightforward: melody in the RH, arpeggio accompaniment on the LH.

You are going to break down this section in three workouts.

1.   Outline. Rewrite the score so that you only have the RH melody , and on the left hand the first note of the arpeggio figuration. Learn this whole passage with hands separate, then join hands. At the end of it you should be playing the melody accompanied by the bass notes – without the fast arpeggio figurations. This should be easy. At the same time, you can concentrate completely on musicality, since the technique to play it in outline is trivial.

2.   Left hand figurations. This is the true difficulty in this practice session. There are 32 bars, and they rarely repeat (If you ignore the first bass notes, and only look at the five next notes, you will see that bar 65 = bar 83; bar 66 = bar 70; bar 68 = bar 71; bar 74 = bar 77; bar 76= bar 79, bar 80 = 81 = 82; bar 85 = 86; bar 89 = bar 90; bar 91 = 92 and bar 93 = 94).

The best way to tackle the left hand is to do repeated note-groups, taking each bar as a unity. Divide the 32 bars into 8 bars and apply repeated note groups to each of these 8 bars. This will take something like 45 – 60 minutes per 8 bars, so you will not be able to tackle this practise session in a single day (unless you do several practice sessions in a day on it).

So, if you dedicate one practice session a day for this piece, this third practice session will require a minimum of six days to cover: One day for the outline; four days for the LH and the last day for HT (see below).

3.   Having mastered the outline of this passage, and having mastered the left hand, now you must put back the arpeggio figurations in it. The best way to do that is to keep the LH going and drop the RH notes one at a time.

Fourth practise session: bars 96 – 117.

This is really a recap of the previous session with the melody being played in chords. Again follow the same scheme: outline, LH and hands together. Except that now most of the LH figurations will have been mastered, so you should be able to tackle this practice session in 20 – 40 minutes.

Fifth practice session: bars 117 – 130.

Piece of cake. No difficulties here. (Meanwhile you are still working on the other practice sessions in parallel)

Sixth practice session: Bars 1 – 130

Now you are going to join everything you have been working on so far. Most of the work here will be making sure the transitions are smooth (they should be, we have been overlapping all along) and working on the musicality of it all.

Seventh practice session: Bars 1 – 264

What? 264 bars?

Yes, it is all a huge repeat! The only bars that are slightly different are the following:

Bars 148 – 149; bars 172 – 173; bars 179 - 180 and bars 233 – 234.

Start the practice session by thoroughly mastering these 8 bars, and then put the whole thing together.

There! 1/4 of the piece mastered and memorised in seven practise sessions and twelve days (hopefully).  In fact it is more than 1/4, since this whole section will repeat later on.

Of course, you should not move to the next session until the one you are in is mastered, so it may take you more than 12 days to cover these 7 practise sessions. It may also be that the size of sessions I suggested may be overambitious (a beginner would never be able to do it – but a grade 8 student should have no problems).

In any case, my main point here was to show how the division in sections is a consequence of analysing the score: seeing which bits repeat, so you don’t need to practise more then strictly necessary, and you go on to playing the piece as soon as possible.

I will leave the rest of the piece for you to organise in sessions as homework.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.


Wow, plenty of informations here... I have read your other posts about 7x20 principle and posts about pianists over ambitous who choose chunks too big to be covered so while i look thru this score, i try to devide it more in smaller sections( i am not the one who is very confident). As for the 1st page that is from bar 1-48. I could sightread it very easily. Although a bit tougher to make the triplets clear. I am working on that everyday since i practised it. :)

It is a headache to write the bars numbers on my score. IT HAS NO BAR NUMBERS. I have to count thru it. It has some differences from the bars u stated to be covered in sessions. ( imagine counting thru almost 770 bars of music.)

From Bar 63 the LH appegios movement is Dflat-Aflat-Dflat-F-Dflat-Aflat, it is simple enough but for the next bar( Dflat-CFlat-Dflat-F-Dflat-Cflat) the first two notes are quite difficult and i often hit B flat rather than B. :(

Anyway, Sir Bernhard thx for the informations u gave. i will reorganise my plan accordingly and will post it again. Did i say thanks? Thanks.
 

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #24 on: April 03, 2005, 05:56:32 AM
Chopin Sherzo Op. 31 No. 2      
Session   1   1--48
Session   2   49--65
Session   3   65-96
Session   4   96-117
Session   5   117-130
Session   6   1-130
Session   7   1-264
Session   8   260-280
Session   9   295-305
Session   10   260-305
Session   11   305-329
Session   12   330-333
Session   13   334-337
Session   14   348-353
Session   15   354-360
Session   16   330-360
Session   17   464-471
Session   18   472-475
Session   19   476-479
Session   20   480-483
Session   21   484-487
Session   22   472-487
Session   23   488-495
Session   24   496-504
Session   25   505-512
Session   26   488-512
Session   27   513-531
Session   28   1-531
Session   29   531-535
Session   30   536-539
Session   31   540-547
Session   32   548-554
Session   33   555-561
Session   34   561-566
Session   35   567-578
Session   36   540-578
Session   37   692-704
Session   38   712-719
Session   39   720-723
Session   40   724-728
Session   41   728-743
Session   42   744-747
Session   43   748-750
Session   44   751-758
Session   45   759-775
Session   46   720-775
Session   47   1-775

Reorganised it . 32 sessions less.

Offline bernhard

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #25 on: April 05, 2005, 11:31:18 PM
Chopin Sherzo Op. 31 No. 2      
Session   1   1--48
Session   2   49--65
Session   3   65-96
Session   4   96-117
Session   5   117-130
Session   6   1-130
Session   7   1-264
Session   8   260-280
Session   9   295-305
Session   10   260-305
Session   11   305-329
Session   12   330-333
Session   13   334-337
Session   14   348-353
Session   15   354-360
Session   16   330-360
Session   17   464-471
Session   18   472-475
Session   19   476-479
Session   20   480-483
Session   21   484-487
Session   22   472-487
Session   23   488-495
Session   24   496-504
Session   25   505-512
Session   26   488-512
Session   27   513-531
Session   28   1-531
Session   29   531-535
Session   30   536-539
Session   31   540-547
Session   32   548-554
Session   33   555-561
Session   34   561-566
Session   35   567-578
Session   36   540-578
Session   37   692-704
Session   38   712-719
Session   39   720-723
Session   40   724-728
Session   41   728-743
Session   42   744-747
Session   43   748-750
Session   44   751-758
Session   45   759-775
Session   46   720-775
Session   47   1-775

Reorganised it . 32 sessions less.

You can do better than that (and you are still not overlapping sections!).  ;)

First , don’t just count the bars. Number them! (Then you never need to count them again). And do a proper job of it! There are 781 bars, not 775! ::) ;)

It seems like you like to do overwork. Have you had a good look at the score?

Check this out:





This table organises the bars of the scherzo so that bars in the same row are exact repeats

This means that bars 265 – 268 are exactly the same as bars 285 – 288, and again the same as 289 – 292, and so on. (Did you notice that bar 285 is in blue? That’s because it is slightly different: the A in the left hand in this bar is not played as an octave as in the other bars.

This means that if you use a practice session to master bars 265 – 268, you have not just mastered 4 bars, you have mastered 28 bars, since these four bars repeat seven times in the piece. Therefore you do not need to include the other 24 bars in any practice session: you have already mastered them.

Bars 273 – 276 are likewise repeated four times, and the larger sections 269 – 276; 289 – 297, 370 – 378 and 391 – 399 again are almost the same. The first one is one bar short; the second and third one are exactly the same (with an extra bar: 293 and 374), and the last one differs only on bar 395. So again, you only need one practice session to deal with these four sections.

Now, look at the big chunk that goes from bar 277 to bar 284. It is repeated exact on bars 379 – 386. And the same applies to bars 400 – 467, which are an exact repeat of bars 298 – 365.

Now let us see how se can use this knowledge – gathered from analysing the score – to organise practice sessions 8 – 17. Here is your scheme:

Session   8   260-280
Session   9   295-305
Session   10   260-305
Session   11   305-329
Session   12   330-333
Session   13   334-337
Session   14   348-353
Session   15   354-360
Session   16   330-360
Session   17   464-471

And here is how I would do it:
Session 8: bars 265 – 269 (also bars 285 – 288: just change bar 285 accordingly).
Session 9: bars 273 – 276 (then add bars 293 and 395 in front of it).
Session 10: Bars 265 – 276 (and bars 289 – 297  - which is the same with bar 293 added and bars 391 – 399, which again is the same with bar 395 added. And you don’t need to practise bars 370 – 378, since these are an exact repeat of bars 289 – 297).
Session 11: Bars 276 – 284 (= bars 378 – 386)
Session 12: Bars 265 – 284 (also do bars 366 – 386 which are the same with the additions on far 374). Finally in this practice session you should also be able to do bars 285 – 297 and bars 387 – 399 since they are almost the same as bars 265 – 276 (with the respective addition of bars 293 and 395).
Session 13: Bars 265 – 297 & bars 366 – 399.

Bars 298 – 365 link the two section on practice session 13, but this is just a too large chunk to be dealt with in a single practise session. However, once you master this large chunk, that is it, since bars 400 – 467 is an exact repeat of it.

So tackle this large session like so:

Session 14: bars 298 – 310. (notice that bar 310 = bar 312 = bar 314)
Session 15: bars 310 – 333 (although this may seem a large chunk, most of the bars are repeats or very similar in structure. If you concentrate on bars 310 and 311, all the other bar pairs follow these two).
Session 16: bars 298 – 333.
Session 17: bars 333 – 365. (Again, a lot of repetition here)
Session 18: Bars 298 – 365.
Session: 19 - Bars 265 – 467.

Can you see how this plan takes into account the structure and form of the piece, and therefore makes it far more easy to memorise, since now it takes into account the musical meaning of the piece?

 You do not want to break down a piece in sequence, bar after bar. You want to sit down with a few photocopies of your score, scissors and glue. You want to identify which sections are repeats, and the order in which they occur. Only when you have sorted out the full form and structure of your piece will you be able to organise its learning in sections in the most efficient way. Don’t be in a rush to go to the piano, take as much time as you need to examine the score.

One last word. It is not such a good idea to explore such methods of practice with a piece like this Scherzo. It has 781 bars, for crying out loud!  :P Instead, learn about the methodology on shorter, easier pieces. (16 – 32 bars). Only when you are thoroughly conversant with the methods and you are confident that you truly understand what you are doing should you tackle more advanced pieces.

So as your next homework ;),  do the rest (if you are clever you will realise that you can save a huge chunk of practice on bars 468 – 781).

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side. (Hunter Thompson)

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #26 on: April 06, 2005, 10:35:02 AM
Thanks for the infos.:)

Bar 544-577 has the same styles.
Bar 566-572 is exactly the same.
As bar 584- 696 is same as bar 1-113. So i can already play it.
For bar 716- 723, bar 716- 719 is same as bar 720-723.
Bar 724- 732 is in same pattern. Bar 724-725 is almost the same althought the LH is slightly different. Bar 726-727 is almost the same ( LH is exactly the same RH is flatten the D in bar 727).
Bar 732-737 is same as Bar 740-748.
Bar 749-754 have alot of repetitions.Bar 755-769 is again repetitions.

I have discover these as above shows.

So my Practice Sessions:
Chopin Sherzo Op. 31 No. 2         
Session   1   1--48   
Session   2   49--65   
Session   3   65-96   
Session   4   96-117   
Session   5   117-130   
Session   6   1-130   
Session   7   1-264   
Session   8   265-269(285-288)   
Session   9   273-276   
Session   10   265-276   
Session   11   276-284   
Session   12   265-284   
Session   13   265-297(366-399)   
Session   14   298-310   
Session   15   310-333   
Session   16   298-333   
Session   17   333-365   
Session   18   295-365   
Session   19   265-467   

Above is the practise session recommended by Sir Bernhard. Thx

Session   20   468-475
Session   21   476-483
Session   22   484-492
Session   23   476-492
Session   24   492-516
Session   25   476-516
Session   26   517-523
Session   27   524-535
Session   28   517-535
Session   29   536-543
Session   30   544-552
Session   31   552-576
Session   32   543-576
Session   33   578-695
Session   34   696-715
Session   35   716-732
Session   36   732-748
Session   37   749-769
Session   38   724-769
Session   39   720-781

Sorry Sir Bernhard for so many disturbings.
You can do better than that (and you are still not overlapping sections!).  ;)

I didn't write it out on my Plan but i will always practise again the previous bars before i proceed.

Thanks.

Offline BoliverAllmon

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #27 on: April 06, 2005, 06:50:43 PM
so in a little over a month you can have this piece done? insane. Geez organization is nice.

boliver

Offline ennar

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Re: Bernhard's suggested plan( HELP!)
Reply #28 on: May 10, 2005, 07:51:38 AM
Phew! I didn't even think of i could even manage this piece. I have done it 3/4 already. Thanks for RNG(Repeated note group) method, i use it for all the difficult parts and my hand was flying at a speed i couldn't imagine.

As learning the 1/4 of the scherzo, at the same time i would like to learn some Schumann pieces to add to my repertoire. can i know the grade of "ABEGG" variation?
I am grade 8 currently. Am i able to manage this piece?

In the process of learning the scherzo, i almost stopped playing it. Maybe it is the weakness of human beings. With daily plans to work on, i found out i was learning in a more faster rate.

Any suggestion? Thanks. :)
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