Memorising a "known" piece.

[dorfmouse]

Why is it so hard to memorise a piece you can already play reasonably well? Or is it just me?
Using the advice I’ve gleaned from this forum over the past few months, particularly Bernhard’s approach, I’ve transformed from a convinced not- able- to- memorise mindset to someone who can. However I find it very difficult to go back and memorise past pieces that I could play eyes- glued- to- the- score. I know I should probably treat them like unknown pieces and go back to small chunks, 20 mins etc but my brain rebels! It’s so difficult to give each small section the focussed attention and repetitions it needs to start the memory journey. My brain seems to want to hear the whole thing and my fingers are itching to play the next bar because they already “know” it, not the one I’m trying to ingrain.
For example, I decided to learn 2 short, fairly easy pieces while learning a longer one that is harder for me (Scarlatti K27). I picked Danza Galante by Granados and Scarlatti K208. Okay, I thought, I’ll have to memorise the Granados straight off as it’s quite fast and I know I’ll have to look at the keyboard to manage the jumps. The little Scarlatti however, I could almost sight read from the beginning and, seduced by the lovely melodic line, could not resist just playing it over and over, thinking I’ll memorise it later. Later came, but the memory wouldn't! I’ve resorted to photocopying it and literally cutting it up into each bar and working backwards to get a new focus. (Nobody’s forcing me to memorise it, it’s just a lovely little piece I want to have inside me). The Granados of course is there quite solidly and even survived a lesson without falling to pieces!
When I think of all the other past pieces I would like to get into the memory bank … am I doomed to chopping up photocopies forever? I fear I know the answer – complete attention is needed at the memorisation stage
I wish I was one of you lot who can “just memorise and don’t know how you do it.”
Jealous rant over!

[TheHammer]

Hmm, for a long time I always thought, memorising pieces would come to me quite naturally by just playing them so often that I would have them in my fingers. Even today I feel that when I am able to play a piece decently I will always notice that the movements are deeply ingrained - I think there is no other way in learning a piece then ingraining the movements into your subconscious.
Nevertheless, most of the times, this "finger memorisation" won't work very well - one wrong note and you will not know how to go on (as I had to learn through some bitter experiences...)
Therefore, with the help of this forum, I have tried to organize the memorisation process. Of course you are right when you say that you will have to do a lot of focused work on the pieces you already know, BUT, you can also use several shortcuts...
Now, as you perhaps know, there are several kinds of memory- visual, auditive, "intellectual", finger memory...
Now, I am actually quite good at visually remembering the score - at least to the expand that it gives me a clumsy idea of where I am going. Finger memory is always a helper, but you have to control it. Another thing I do is analysing the piece. That means chord progression, for instance. You just know: Ah, here I have my C Major cadence, now we have here the G7 in the bass, now comes the Aminor etc. Next thing would be motivs, themes, variations. Bernhard has mentioned somewhere that nearly all music is based on repition to 90 %. If it were not, it would be unbearable to listen to. That means you just have to memorise the main theme, and then you just have to know what the composer is doing with it (you have to memorise the second theme as well, of course, you know what I mean).

But the best advice I read so far is the thing about making up a story of memory marks throughout the piece (there is this example of Bernhard where he goes to the supermarket and all the most fanciest, craziest things happen, just to show how one could memorize the shopping list, I definetly have to search it...).
Ah cool found it already. It is reply no.22

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,4321.msg66112.html#msg66112
(ignore the posts of guirlandes or whatever, that was a very strange story...)

 That is pretty cool, because so you will built up a lot memory hooks - let's say you start the piece and you are thinking of it as your daily routine: the main theme is you waking up, getting out of the bed, and as the piece develops you can make up a complete story for every section. When you then play it from memory just by the thought of like: what comes after the breakfast? Teeth brushing! you will remember your phrase (of course you do not want your boring routine for your sweet Scarlatti piece: you want a completely new story, with every detail you can think of - be creative! ).
Or you will know that it is just your theme a fifth upwards. Or that we are now in G Major. Or your fingers will tell you. But the important thing is you will have 4 or even a lot more memory hooks instead of just one (or none ).

Anyway, these are just some advices for memorising a piece you once knew (in case you did not already know this stuff, but anyway).

Now, if you are referring to the famous Bernhard's "polishing pieces"-method, I have to tell you, that it is as it is. Relearning completely from scratch. Devilish

Well, I do not know if this was helpful at all, so I will post the perhaps most valuable link at the entire forum:

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,5767.0.html
(the master-list)

Just to re-read some things...

[dorfmouse]

Thank you for all your thoughts and for reminding me to look at the problem in more than one way.
I know that the small chunks way works for me, but as I say, my brain rebels with these “known” pieces. With some pieces I find the story hook comes very naturally, it did in the Granados for example, but the Scarlatti is not so visual, more like one long line of feeling/mood. However, maybe just the effort of making associations for smaller parts of it will nudge along the brain cells. I think I’ll just pour a nice glass of Rioja and imagine …..
Must work more on the analysis too  !

[ShiroKuro]

 I have similar difficulties memorizing pieces that Ive already "completed" and am able to play fine *with* the score.

I think with pieces that I always play with the score open, it's not the case that I haven't memorized the piece, it's that part of my memorization is dependent on the visual cues I get from the score. So I'm not sight-reading it, I'm looking at the score as a whole, the same way we look at the keyboard when we're playing without the score. If that makes sense.

But, since I am used to depending on the score's visual cues, when I don't have the score, I find myself making mistakes. I suspect this is the problem dorfmouse is having?

I think the only way to memorize a piece that was previously learned without "memorizing" it, is to recognize that you do have a good bit of it memorized, and to be aware of the role of the score in your visual memory. Then, you need to replace that visual memory with something else. Or, maybe not "replace" it, but just make the visual memory not dependant on having physical score, just get the score fully into your head.

Breaking the piece up into those small sections might be ok, but I'm not convinced that that's the best way for this particular problem. It seems to me that you should just close the score and see how much you can play from memory. When you get stuck, open the score, look at it, close it,  back up a  little and play through the spot where you were stuck earlier.

Or another thing to do might be to look through the score (triggering your visual memory) then close it and see how much you can play. Or look at a particular spot on the score (this would be similar to a section) close, and play that spot only.

Again, I want to stress that these are methods I'm thinking about for pieces that we have completed without memorizing from the beginning. So I think the process must surely be different, since we're starting at a different place with that piece....

Any comments?

[marialice]

It's not just you, I have similar problems too. I think ShiroKuro made some good points about the visual cues. I have even found that when I played the same piece from a different edition it was much more difficult (even though I my sight-reading is not bad - clearly I wasn't just reading the notes but using the overall form and look of the music as well).

I recently memorised Chopin's grande valse brillante, a piece I had been playing from the score for ages. I found that for me it all came down to discipline. I decided I wanted the piece memorised and forced myself not to play it from the score anymore (this was the hard part!). Then it turned out to be surprisingly easy, easier than memorising a new piece.

Just try it out. Take a piece you really want to memorise and say to yourself that from now on you are not allowed to play it from the score anymore. Be very strict . Put the score on the table (or on top of the piano so you have to stand up to read it), read a small part and play it. Use all the memorisation tricks you know of course.

Hope it helps.

[nomis]

It's just because you're lazy to learn something you already know. I'm like that too. You have to leave the piece until you can hardly play it at all, then you'll have to learn it because you've forgotten most of it.

[whynot]

Well, I'm looking at your Scarlatti and it really is very special.  I think you should STOP cutting up photocopies and do something different, and here's why:  because when you talked about the piece itself, you used the words seduced, couldn't resist, melodic, lovely (more than once, which it is), and little (more than once-- which it is, short, I mean, but also little in feeling-- delicate, precious).  When you talked about your memorization process, on the other hand, you used the words resorted to, cutting up, and doomed.  Do you see why this isn't working?  Or, if it eventually works, it will still change the way you experience the piece, because you'll have the visual memory of those cut-up bits of paper that used to be your beautiful piece. 

This IS a beautiful piece, and musically straightforward in terms of what there is to memorize.  Since you've been so captivated by this melody, you probably remember that, or parts of it.  So either you're unsure of your bass progression--if so, just go memorize that right now, just the low bass of the first half (it'll take two minutes)(play it as fast as you can, not in tempo)-- or you're unsure about the specific short patterns in the melody.  Play it slowly, watching the music, STOP and observe every time the RH has a non-chord note on a beat, then play the resolution.  Ex:  ms. 3, beats 3 and 4.  Play the beginning of beat 3 several times, look at your hands, then close your eyes and really HEAR it, then add the next eighth-note so you feel the resolution.  Then beat 4 the same way.  The whole piece is like this, so I'd try to really experience all those "landings" and resolutions as being very specific and special.  Then, spreading out the attention a little more broadly, each phrase moves either in a scale or as a chord, so you have to notice which ones are which-- like end of ms. 6 and beginning of 7 is an A major chord, then it turns into an E scale.  You can practice out of tempo, stopping every time this kind of change happens (and say out loud, "chord," "scale"), it will help to separate them in your memory, instead of morphing into a long flowing melody that lasts for a whole page.  I mean, it is, but you need to break it up into pieces that are distinctly memorable for you.  For the second half, I see it the same way.  Learn the bass part by itself--not the whole LH, just the low bass, playing through very quickly.  The reason for speed is that it's easier to remember things that happen close together than spread out over time--the pattern becomes clear sooner.  If this is hard at first, start at the end because ends are always a basic cadence that's easy to remember, then you just build on it.  The second half has a lot more notes, but it has more repitition of patterns, too (ms 17), and the separate repeated notes like in ms 21 are distinctive, so those are easy to remember.  I think you could get it thoroughly memorized very quickly in this way, since you certainly know parts of it already.  This process would just firm up the wiggly spots and give you more of a structure to hold on to. 

Keep us posted!  Don't abuse any more of your music, even in photocopies!  It will cheapen the piece for you. 

   

[dorfmouse]

I'm so touched by everybody’s' empathetic replies.  Thank you all very much indeed: there is substance in everyone's response.

Yes I think it is partly a horses -for -courses thing, different strategies are more appropriate at the various stages of memorising. With these sort-of-learnt pieces the point made that one probably knows more of it than one thinks is valid and encouraging. Overcoming the mental laziness/resistance I admit is a large factor. There is also an issue of self-consciousness to overcome: when one has to practice with family members around one feels for them having to listen to the umpteen repetitions (a son says plaintively, "Why do you hardly ever play something all the way through?")!

I recognise using the score as a visual prop while probably not actually reading it is also a habit, as even with the pieces I have memorised I feel more secure with it in front of me. (And it's so tempting to peek!) Without the score that blank wooden expanse of piano is like looking over a cliff edge.

Well, I'm looking at your Scarlatti and it really is very special.  I think you should STOP cutting up photocopies and do something different, and here's why:  because when you talked about the piece itself, you used the words seduced, couldn't resist, melodic, lovely (more than once, which it is), and little (more than once-- which it is, short, I mean, but also little in feeling-- delicate, precious).  When you talked about your memorization process, on the other hand, you used the words resorted to, cutting up, and doomed.  Do you see why this isn't working?  Or, if it eventually works, it will still change the way you experience the piece, because you'll have the visual memory of those cut-up bits of paper that used to be your beautiful piece. 

How our words betray us   And you've now got me feeling all protective about my beautiful piece.

"Dorfmouse hath murdered music!!!"

 OK I promise, no more cutting up. (My son's getting a hamster next week so perhaps I'll shred the bits and the creature can use it for nesting. I'm sure it'll bring lovely dreams!)

Yes, it is harder to remember the LH chord progression than the RH melody; the chords themselves are quite bare and similar looking. Your suggestion to concentrate on the sound of those discords as signposts has already helped fix a couple of wobbly spots on the first page. And they are so lovely to play, plangent I think is the word! Tomorrow I'll try the speeding-up ploy and will mutter chord and scale like mad when no-one's in earshot!

Many thanks again. I'll aim to perform it entirely from memory in my next lesson. Now I've got to do it!
 

[lostinidlewonder]

I have this problem often with students who I take up who have been taught to sight read only and have no skills in memoristation. This is so tough to deprogram. I have found the most important element to teach memory with the sightreading student is to target and identify what parts are a problem to memorise. Once you have your technique as to how to go about and memorise you have to set up a plan to make sure you monitor the sheet music or it is all to waste.

There have been many ideas popping into my mind when I think how to build the bridge between sight reading and to memory but I think the best help I ever found was POST IT notes. You know those little square yellow sticky paper? Put one of those on the first bar. So that you play the first bar by memory all the time. Every so often, whether that be every hour, day or month depending on your standard, add one more post it note to the sheet music. You could add those notes to the first bar of each new section of the peice you play, and go from there. If you must look at the sheet which is covered up, put a little mark on top of that post it note so that you record that you had to look at that bar. Tags which get many marks on them, you know must be a big problem area for you so target it. Eventually the sheet gets all covered up. I wouldn't suggest cutting up the sheet music, music should always have the potential to be seen in its entirity.

Find the routine touch for each bar you play, so that it just ends up feeling right, and you identify that feel through the hands and your eyes watching your hands, not through your hands and your eyes watching dots. Tear away this security blanket, sight reading is only to aid memory and accompanying. The faster you sight read the faster you can absorb music, but memory techniques have to be installed so that you can record all these notes and appreciate what you are feeling at the keys, that you read and remember not just forget about them as sight readers are very use to.

To me piano memory/reading is like a bottle. The neck of the bottle is the reading skills you have, the greater your reading skills the more informattion (the wider the neck, the more water can pour through the bottle). Memory is like the body of the bottle, if you have good memory skill then you have a big container, but if the reading is slow the information trickling in is very inefficient. So we have to strike up a good balance between the reading and memory, so that what pours in is efficient but is also retained. Sight readers to me are like constantly over flowing bottles, what is taken in cannot be stored just has to be used straight away. Memorisers to me are like big empty bottles with a small neck tricking in information.

[dorfmouse]

Keep us posted!  Don't abuse any more of your music, even in photocopies!  It will cheapen the piece for you.

Well, here's the current state of play. This is also a big THANK YOU to  you all and A MESSAGE OF HOPE TO THOSE WHO THINK THEY CAN'T MEMORISE!!

Occasion: End of year recital.
Time; Yesterday afternoon.
Venue; Recital room in 200 year old Schloss, the premises of local music school
Instrument; Mellow old Bechstein grand.
(It gets less impressive from now on!)
Ambience; Sunny, windows open, cockerel in neighbouring garden bellowing lustily, cuckoo frantically cuckooing from tree to tree.
Audience: friendly but fidgety, ranging from toddlers to great-grandparents.
Performers; 27 tinies, teens and two supposed grown ups, including me, introduced as shining examples of lifelong learning and perseverence. I'm 25th to play, so plenty of time to stoke up the nerves after a 2 minute tryout of said unfamiliar instrument.
My contribution; "My" Scarlatti Sonata A Maj K208, subject of the original post, and the Granados "Danza Galante". (They make a nice contrasting pair, linked by the Spanish theme)

Me playing from memory? In public? Now I know it wasn't an occasion for the world's music press to be falling over each other for admission, but 6 months ago it was unthinkable for me to play anything without the notes, even for my teacher. Even in the privacy of my own home.
And I really enjoyed it! It was wonderful to play on a good instrument, to feel its resonance and to be able to concentrate on hearing what I was playing and even adapt as I went along. I felt as if I was communicating something, not just reading from a book.
So I hope this gives heart to those who think they can't memorise. Read up the advice from all the helpful people on the forum, pay great attention to Bernhard's schemes, find out what works for you and apply it as consistently as you can. Ignore like the plague posts that begin "I've always been able to memorise..." Good luck!

[bernhard]

Well done!

[abell88]

Indeed!

[pianojems]

Its true memorizing pieces after you learned them is extremely difficult, it is better to memorize it right as you learn it to begin with. Memorize pieces section by secton. My teachers also encourage the technique of learn it and forget it like 3 times that way you will definitely store it into your permanent memory. C. C. Chang talks in detail about this subject in his ebook in the memory section so you should take a look very good advice.

here's the URL go to number 6 about memorizing
https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm
 I hope this helps

[dorfmouse]

Yes, I'm definitely in the forgetting stage of a couple of pieces now; will put the relearn bit to the test in a couple of months!

[adagiom]

Bravo, bravo for your performance!