Keeping a *tuned* piano at my cabin

[torchygirl]

Hello all-

I would like to keep a piano at my new cabin.  I'm at the very beginning point of making a decision about which piano to buy (the cabin isn't done yet).   

I'm wondering if the environment will be suitable for keeping any piano in tune, and if there would be a difference between different brands (I'm thinking acoustic upright).  During the winter, I plan to keep the temperature at around 50 degrees when no one is there.  And in the summer, I plan to not air condition it (it's naturally on the cool side).  It is near Lake Superior, so I would think that would put a lot of moisture into the air. 

At my home I have a new Seiler upright and adore it.  It will make it harder to go to the cabin if I don't have a nice sounding piano to play!!  Any ideas?  Are these temperature variations brutal for a piano?

Karen

[G.Fiore]

 TG, unless you can keep some sort of humidity control in your cabin it would be a death sentence to any piano residing there. You don't say where this cabin is.  In the winter, at 50F, the relative humidity inside would be so low the piano would dry out. If you could have a Dampp-Chaser installed and maintain it, the piano would have a chance.
  Pianos , like humans like a consistent and healthy level of humidity(42-45%). and temp (68-72F).

[torchygirl]

Thanks for your response.  My cabin is on the North Shore of Minnesota, near Lake Superior, so I think there would be humidity up there for much of the year.  For example, right now the humidity is at 50% up there (and around 50 deg F), and down here in the Twin Cities it's 32% humidity (and around 60 deg F).  Also, I have in-floor radiant heat in the cabin which I believe is less drying.  And actually I just found some historical data that shows very high humidity (never averaging below 56%, morning or afternoon, and usually over 70%)

I'll have to get a humidistat or something.   Can there be too much humidity?

Karen

[G.Fiore]

 T, the outdoor relative humidity?temp  has no relation to the indoor relative humidity/temp , especially when the air is heated in your cabin during the winter. The winters in your part of the country are brutal.
 For example, if the temp outside is 30F, and the relative humidity is at 50%. You then heat your cabin  to say 70F, the realtive humidity would then be in the low 30's%. The comfort range for pianos and humans is between 40%-50% realative humidity. Your piano would suffer unless you can maintain a constant level of humidity of 40%-50%.

[jr11]

I am not a great fan of digitals, but I'd have to suggest that might be a good option for this application.

I am often asked about climatic conditions where a piano would do well to be kept. The easy answer is if you would be comfortable there, so would your piano. The conditions you describe would not be comfortable for people or cherished instruments.

Digitals however, are not affected (within reason). Lots of material is out there on digitals. One of my favourites for good touch is made by General Music, an Italian make that I don't see discussed much. The on-board sounds leave a bit to be desired, but better sounds can be imported.

[iumonito]

Also, most warranties will be voided if you let the humidity inside the room where the piano resides vary so dramatically. Any way to keep the humidity in the cabin constant?

If you are like me, you smiled when you saw the posts about people being comfortable at certain %.  Bogus.  We humans are very sturdy and don't swell when it's humid nor dry out when it is dry.  Pianos, having lots of open wood, are entirely different.

Note that the damp chaser does little for the action and the keybed, and mostly protects only the soundboard.  There is great debate about its effectiveness.  I have one on my piano but do not rely on it, but rather have a humidity clock, two humidifiers and two dehumidifiers in the room where the piano lives to keep the humidity around 40%.

For reference, in reality there is no much problem in keeping the piano dry, if you can avoid the piano getting wet.  I have heard that Steinway keeps its pianos at about 30% all year round (I heard that from a very reputable New York seller who deals only on old Steinways and some other fine brands, but sells no new Steinways, so it may be puffery.  Anyone knows?)

Also, note temperature affects the piano very little.  If you don't heat up the cabin that much, there is no reason why it should get so dry.

Digital has no such problem.

[torchygirl]

George, JR11 and iumonito- thank you all so much for your input.  I really hate the idea of getting a digital piano.  But even more I really don't want to waste all the energy it would take to heat and moisturize the cabin to a particular temperature when no one is up there for a month.  I forgot to have them build a temp and humidity-controlled piano closet for me (LOL).  DPs have probably gotten much better in the past few years, so I will have to go look at them.  Grrrr.  I was getting so excited about finding a new acoustic. 

Karen

[chickering9]

The members of PianoWorld are in the process of compiling a member performance CD with many pieces recorded on members' own pianos.  I've listened to all but a couple of the recordings.  I was *very* surprised to learn that my two very favorite recordings for the piano sound itself (aside from the selection) were *digital* pianos.  This coming from someone spoiled by a concert grand whose digital just collects dust because he hates it. 

Both were Yamaha.  The tone and timbre were truly beautiful.  So I grudgingly (but only by half) have to admit that some digitals are getting quite good.  One of the members whose recording was my first favorite owns a Bechstein concert grand.  When I first heard his recording, I thought, "Wow, that Bechstein is absolutely great--one of the best pianos I've ever heard."  Then when I complimented him on it, he told me it was a Yamaha digital he'd used, and not his Bechstein.  I am not a fan of Yamaha's accoustic pianos, but I have to say their digitals are first rate for sound quality and to my ears better than many really good accoustics.

So, for your situation, I'd keep an open mind, find a good action and piano sound, and never worry about the temp and humidity, or tuning, at the cabin. 

[xvimbi]

The members of PianoWorld are in the process of compiling a member performance CD with many pieces recorded on members' own pianos.  I've listened to all but a couple of the recordings.  I was *very* surprised to learn that my two very favorite recordings for the piano sound itself (aside from the selection) were *digital* pianos.  This coming from someone spoiled by a concert grand whose digital just collects dust because he hates it. 

Both were Yamaha.  The tone and timbre were truly beautiful.  So I grudgingly (but only by half) have to admit that some digitals are getting quite good.  One of the members whose recording was my first favorite owns a Bechstein concert grand.  When I first heard his recording, I thought, "Wow, that Bechstein is absolutely great--one of the best pianos I've ever heard."  Then when I complimented him on it, he told me it was a Yamaha digital he'd used, and not his Bechstein.  I am not a fan of Yamaha's accoustic pianos, but I have to say their digitals are first rate for sound quality and to my ears better than many really good accoustics.

So far, I haven't really seen (heard) a Yamaha digital that comes anywhere close to an acoustic. The samples are good, but I don't find them as good as you do. I believe what you described is actually a crummy recording job for the acoustics. Digitals can be connected directly to a computer. There is no room reverb, or any distortion from misplaced and low-quality microphones. Recording pianos is one of the most difficult jobs. It requires top-notch equipment and a lot of know-how.

There are piano samples on the market that are indeed very close to the real thing. However, they are not built into any digital piano, but reside on (powerful) computers connected to a keyboard. Those sound samples are in fact nothing else than recorded acoustic grands, so you'll be listening to the sound of acoustic pianos after all.

That said, I find Yamaha digitals satisfactory in many ways, including sound, and I would second the advice to get of those for a cabin.

[pianodoc]

Torchygirl-

The indoor climate you describe fits what many churches are doing on a regular basis.  While not the "best", I'm not sure it is an automatic death sentence.  It does make keeping the piano in tune a challenge, though if you are not going to be raising the heat every weekend, it may not be quite as bad. 

I have one friend that has an old, old upright that gets left in an unheated(!) cabin during the winter.  It amazingly holds a tune pretty well and has survived 15 years up there!  I tune it each summer when we visit and am always surprised that it holds together.  Limited or no A/C during the humid season as well.  It probably lost all the crown in the soundboard long ago, so it doesn't change much with humidity.

As to the Dampp-Chaser option.... unless someone is going to be there fill it, I wouldn't bother with installing a full system.  However, you could help a lot by installing a half system; the drying portion and the control "brain".   In all honesty, uprights do a lot better, being a more closed system.  Investigate a back cover, to help both sides of the board get controlled.

I still haven't found a digital that I like to play, though like Chickering9, have found the recorded digitals really sound great during playback.  But that's not what we're talking about here; you want something to sit down and play...

[torchygirl]

Chickering9, that's a good recommendation.  I wonder which dp one he was using? 

Xvimbi, your comments scare me a bit because I really want a low maintenance thing.  I don't have time for a piano for which I have to download stuff to get good sound (well, I don't have time to find the good sounds and figure out *how* to download it and get all the necessary cables which I never have).  And with a digital it seems like a lot of times you're paying for all this extra stuff I really don't want to use.  But I guess I have to check these things out for myself in real life (love to spend time on the internet, hate doing the bricks and mortar stuff).

Pianodoc-that's kind of what I was thinking too.  But I don't have any piano tuning buddies (actually my brother got the training years ago, but his rock 'n rolled ears are too damaged to use it, he went and got an MBA instead.)   So I guess a shopping I will go.

Thanks all,
Karen

[xvimbi]

Xvimbi, your comments scare me a bit because I really want a low maintenance thing.  I don't have time for a piano for which I have to download stuff to get good sound (well, I don't have time to find the good sounds and figure out *how* to download it and get all the necessary cables which I never have).  And with a digital it seems like a lot of times you're paying for all this extra stuff I really don't want to use.  But I guess I have to check these things out for myself in real life (love to spend time on the internet, hate doing the bricks and mortar stuff).

Don't get me wrong. I think the Yamaha's are great (I have one myself, a PF-500), but they really don't come close to the Tadashi, acoustic Yamaha or the Steinway D (I hate that thing!) that I mess around with too. You are right; you will need to find out for yourself if a digital will do it for you. If you are in the US, go to the nearest GuitarCenter. They have plenty of models to check out. Some with few frills are the P-120, P-250, and the PF-500. Quite decent.