finger sloppiness

[Sekoul]

my teacher just gave me Chopin's etude op10 #4 and told me to practice it and watch my fingers because they go all over the place. this is true, and it often causes bad sound, imprecision, and difficulty with speed in many pieces for me. I lift my fingers too much, and i somehow cant individualize them, meaning for example, when i lift the 3rd, the fourth moves with it a lil, and with the 4th, the 5th is always as if tied with a string. Also, my bridge, or arch, sometimes collapses completely due to these pointless fingure movements.
My question is... how can i improve on this? i know about exercises such as pressing down 5 keys and then lifting one by one, but things like dat just dont seem to be getting me anywhere. Even the op10 no4 which she assigned me exactly to help that, ISNT helping it, its just making the problem more apparent to me! whenever i try to make a conscious effort not to do it i just feel like it gets worse and i cant even hit the right notes.

Thank you for your time!

[xvimbi]

I lift my fingers too much, and i somehow cant individualize them, meaning for example, when i lift the 3rd, the fourth moves with it a lil, and with the 4th, the 5th is always as if tied with a string.
My question is... how can i improve on this?

You can't! This hard to swallow, but it is true, and unfortunately many people are not aware of this (including some teachers). Did your teacher tell you how to practice it? Did s/he show you the correct motions?

Well, here is the shocker: There is no such thing as finger independence, particularly when it comes to fingers 3, 4 and 5. The way the tendons run in the human hand causes these fingers to move together to some extent. Trying to overcome this will lead to injury. I'd advise you to take a good look at a human anatomy/physiology book to convince yourself that your observations are absolutely correct. In other words: there is nothing wrong with you. If you want to learn more about the fundamentals of proper technique, do yourself a favor and get the book "What every pianist needs to know about the body" by Thomas Mark (https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1579992064/qid=1112547964/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-6187995-5427235?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). I consider this a must-have book. You will find a lot of myths about piano technique thoroughly demolished.

But so now how do get better finger independence? You must elicit other motions, not just moving fingers up and down. Involve your torso, shoulders, elbows and wrist to get the right finger to the right key at the right time with the right force. Your fingers will have different "strengths". This is the way it is supposed to be, one must accept this. It is therefore important to figure out how to compensate for this by applying more or less weight from the hand, forearm, or the entire body to them. If you are playing such advanced etudes, you will probably be familiar with how a chord is voiced by putting weight behind the appropriate finger. It's all a matter of proper alignment with and rotations of the forearm.

Instead of getting some CD's, invest in a few basic books about piano technique. If you search the forum, you'll find them all mentioned. Working through those books (with your teacher) will propel your pianistic skills much more rapidly than buying $1,000 worth of sheetmusic. To start, read C. Chang's book, which is freely available on the Internet at https://members.aol.com/chang8828/contents.htm

Come back with any questions you might have after reading these sources carefully. Good luck!

[Jacey1973]

I lift my fingers too much, and i somehow cant individualize them, meaning for example, when i lift the 3rd, the fourth moves with it a lil, and with the 4th, the 5th is always as if tied with a string.

I have this same problem at the moment. I've memorised Mozart's piano sonata in D (K576) and my teacher said to get a clearer, lighter sound (in a way "individualizing" the notes - what you're talking about I think) i should practise the running, rapid, scalic passages (especially of the 1st and 3rd movements) in small sections, very slowly, using STACCATO so that i listen to absolutely every note. My teacher says this way of practising doesn't work for everyone, but it made a hell of a difference to my playing. I was able to clarify every single note and it is really worth all the hard practising i'm putting in.

Good luck!

[jim_24601]

Ah, staccato. One of the biggest of the "big guns" in any pianist's practice arsenal. Oddly enough you get the most improvement by practising a section in different ways - if it's legato, practise it staccato. If it's a straight rhythm, practise it dotted (both ways of course). If it's arpeggiated, practise it as chords. I'm in a similar position to Jenni right now (no, I don't mean "sitting in front of a computer") - I'm learning some Bach and Scarlatti and trying to get a nice baroque leggiero touch in the scale passages, and because before about a month ago I hadn't practised a scale for years, I was making a ghastly noise. So lots of slow work, lots of both staccato and a heavy legato touch, detail work on the thumb crossings, dotted rhythms for evenness of tempo, varying stresses for evenness of touch, and LISTENING to the sound that comes out. It's going to take a while though, and I have the advantage that I know what I'm after and just have to remind my brain and fingers how to get it.

I think my point is that you should practise in different ways (I've highlighted a few above, but it's not an exhaustive list), because each way of working will expose some weaknesses and conceal others, and if you only work one way you will practise in the weaknesses that that particular way conceals. So in that sense it is good that the Chopin is

making the problem more apparent to me!

since it is exposing a weakness that you can then work on.

It's not about strength or independence, whatever Mr Hanon may say - as our resident experts point out elsewhere, you already have all the strength you need and - as xvimbi points out above - you have all the independence you're ever going to get (sorry!) It's about control. Your brain must instruct each individual finger to hit each individual note with exactly the velocity to produce the sound you want. This, unfortunately, means lots of slow detailed work and lots of listening. You cannot produce a good tone by touch alone because your fingers will lie to you. As you have discovered, your fingers are not made equal, and they will claim to be playing with a beautiful steady legato and a perfectly even tone when in fact they are all over the place with misplaced accents and inappropriate bangs. Don't expect them to learn to produce a good tone by themselves, because they won't - you have to force them to make the sound you want. (This is probably why it all falls apart when you try to concentrate on tone - your fingers have the notes in muscle memory and are resisting being told what to do by your brain. Fingers are evil.) Slow down to the point at which you can consciously and precisely control the sound of every single note, correct for the differences in finger strength (more or less help from arm and shoulder), and listen for the result.

Oh, and did I mention that you should listen to the sound you are making? (it may seem obvious but it's actually quite hard to do - one's natural inclination is to play by touch and listen in one's head. If you have the capability to record yourself this can be a useful check).

[xvimbi]

Oh, and did I mention that you should listen to the sound you are making? (it may seem obvious but it's actually quite hard to do - one's natural inclination is to play by touch and listen in one's head.

Excellent post 

If you have the capability to record yourself this can be a useful check).

It's not only very useful, but it can also very sobering

[Dazzer]

Scales. Technical studies. Boring, but it'll benefit if you do it right.

Yes, finger independence is almost impossible. But fixing the lifting of the fingers is important. With running passages, you do not need to lift the finger from the keyboard at all, except to shift the hand. Simply press the key, do not hit.(unless hitting produces the specific effect you want) but for practice do that.

It'll take a while to change... i'd say a couple of years before you start doing it subconsciously.

That's what i suggest. but obviously, i'm not professor of juilliard or something so take my suggestion with a pinch of salt ye?

[mikep996]

Hi all,

I'm new here but wanted to add something that fits well in this topic.  It's about over-practicing and trying to make your hands/fingers do things they do not want to do.

I was a piano major in college - many many years ago.  Later I switched to guitar.  About 10 years ago I seriously began studying flamenco guitar.  At one pont I was practicing 4-5 hours a day and 8+ hours on weekends.  As I progressed I practiced in front of a mirror.  I noticed that my little fingeron my right hand "flew around" a lot.  It had no affect on playing but it looked "untidy."  So I vowed to correct it.

A worked at holding my little finger curved instead of letting it go where it wanted to.  Not long after that, I started having pains in my forearm when I played.  I also noticed that until I played for 20-30 minutes, my fingers seemed stiff.  I went to the doctor and insisted he give me cortisone shots.  He was reluctant but finally agreed.  The pains went away and I continued to practice.

Then, I began noticing that my fingers were no longer under my control!  My little and ring finger began curling up against my palm.  Soon, I could not play any of the music I had been playing.  After seeing several specialists, the diagnosis was focal dystonia.  I am convinced I caused it by forcing my hand to perform in a manner contrary to what it needed to do. 

Since then I have observed many flamenco guitarists - some have "flying" little fingers, some do not.  It has no effect on their ability.

I have now tried to return to the piano.  The dystonia has a noticeable affect on my playing though not nearly as much as it did on the guitar.  Currently, I am trying to relearn a few warhorses.  I'm working on the Pathetique but I don't think my dystonia will permit me to ever play it at tempo but I'm making some progress.  Sinding - I can get through.  The Moonlight 3rd movement is totally impossible.  Chopin's Cminor Polonaise seems  a possibility...

My point is, be very aware of what your body is telling you.  AND DON't play through the pain.

Best regards to all here.

MikeP

[torchygirl]

Oh my gosh, that (finger curling) happens to me sometimes!  I did a quick little search (which is probably why I have some problems with my hands, too much computer stuff) and found this article by a guitarist which might be useful to you.  Now I'm going to go rest my hand and arm.

https://www.davidleisner.com/inwitdavleis.html


Karen

[mikep996]

Thanks Karen,

I didn't want to get into it in much detail but I have done a lot of research on focal dystonia and have been active on a lot of forums about it.  I'm familiar with the site you noted and have exchanged ideas with several professional musicians -guitarists and pianists- with the problem.    I was one of those people who laughed at folks who "warmed up."  I played so much my fingers/wrists/arms ached and I played through it.  I learned the hard way and too late to listen to what your body says!  I just wanted to mention it here to hopefully keep someone else from being equally stupid.

MikeP

[xvimbi]

My point is, be very aware of what your body is telling you.  AND DON't play through the pain.

Best regards to all here.

MikeP

Sorry to hear about your problems. It is true that focal dystonia is very common among pianists. In fact, every now and then, somebody posts a question on this forum like "I noticed that my fingers are a lot more curled when relaxed than they used to be. Anybody noticed similar things?"
Over-practicing is most likely the cuplrit, but apparently, over-practicing affects the connections between the neurons in the brain, so it is not so much a muscular disease, but a neurological. This in turn means that one can also "trick" the brain back into "normal" behavior. I have no idea, though, how this could be achieved. In any case, Leon Fleischer was able to get back into business by receiving botox injections. This does only treat the symptoms, though. He is probably to old to re-train. I am sure you have read a lot about focal dystonia, so are probably aware of all this. In any case, for what it's worth, this web site has some interesting information:

https://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro01/web2/Blumenfeld.html

Good health!

[ShiroKuro]

Sekoul, just to add to what's been said before, forcing yourself and working desparately to change something about your hands is never a good idea.

You want to decrease finger sloppiness, and you said whatever you do now it just seems to get worse. Well, don't spend your entire time in front of the keyboard focused on that one aspect.

Choose a very small passage or section, and focus on playing it cleanly. Try to worry less about how your fingers look, and more about how your playing sounds. Work on this for maybe 20 minutes, and then let it be. Go on to other parts of your practice routine. You didn't learn how to play the piano all in one sitting, and you're not going to change how you move your fingers all in one sitting either. Work on it little by little, and lower your expectations for how much change you expect to visually see in one day. This should lower your frustration, and make it easier to work on this a little every day. Then you're likely to notice that you're improving more than you expected.

Good luck!

[Sekoul]

thanks a lot! by the way, can you suggest any particular exercises for the clarity? ignoring the appearance of the fingers..
Thanks!

[xvimbi]

thanks a lot! by the way, can you suggest any particular exercises for the clarity? ignoring the appearance of the fingers..
Thanks!

No exercises needed. Just play your piece and listen carefully to the sound you produce. If you detect any unclarity, you will automatically adjust your motions. Never play faster than you can actually manage to play with clarity. Once you have figured out the correct motions, clarity, accuracy and everything else does not come from playing at high speed hoping that one day it will all come together. It comes from playing slowly. Some people recommend, and I agree, that even after a practice session at full speed, one should play the piece once more very slowly with utmost accuracy and clarity. It works (for me).