Slippery keys! (or: ivory rules)

[martin_s]

I think you know what I mean! The typical scenario would be: You are half the way through your first movement of a concerto or a sonata, you begin to suspect somebody poured extra virgin olive oil on the keys before you came on stage and no pause long enough to wipe the it off is coming up in the near future. What Do You Do???

I mean, when you can go to the Moon and treat cancer and all kinds of stuff, WHY on earth then can't they come up with a keyboard that does not become so bloody slippery??? It can not be that difficult really, what do you think??

[Ckarrlozs]

I think the japanese people are wise enough to come up with something new that make it possible to eat noodles off the keyboard of your Yamaha first, and immediately after to play Islamey with no mistakes and without sliding all over the place!

Ivory is still slippery sometimes and gets really dirty if you are the sweaty kind of guy... (but it feels good...)

[robX]

I do really think it is a hygienical reson. I mean, every ivory keyboard gets really dirty after a while if you don't clean it but have you ever seen a dirty plastic keybord?
This is a quiet good reason for using plastic on most pianos, especially at conservatories etc.
The strange thing is that they use it on concert grands.
If they pay the pianist $2000 for playing on it they could instead pay $1990 and $10 to someone cleaning the keys.
I would agree with that and I think most pianist would if they could avoid slippery keys by having another material on concert grands.

[martin_s]

Or pay the pianist $4.000 instead of $2.000 and the pianist him/herself cleans the keys! I'd be happy to do it then!

No, seriuosly, I think you are right there with the advantage of plastic, robX. It certainly Looks better anyway. I get this creepy feeling though that even though you can't actually see the dirt it's still there somehow... Yuk. Have you ever came across a conservatory grand that is so dirty that it actually Smells?? Trust me, I have seen things in my life! Yuk again!

It is funny though, some time ago I realised that slippery keyboards might be, at least partially, a mental thing. (OK, you think I am drunk now or something, too much coffe maybe) I had a period a couple of weeks ago (when I first posted this topic) when All the pianos at my college needed a "caution, wet keys" sign as soon as I had played more than three notes in a row on it. And then after a little while it just stopped. Isn't that a little scary??

[dave]

See https://Yost.com/music/piano-keys.html

[mozartean]

Do you guys have the experience of sweaty palms during a performance or audition whereas during your regular practice sessions you do not have this problem? It seems to me that with the anxiety and apprehension during a performance, the sweat glands on your palms pour out more sweat onto the keyboard. When this happens, it feels like ice skating on the keyboard and adds to your anxiety and it becomes a viscious cycle.

[dinosaurtales]

I seem to have the opposite problem.  I have extremely dry hands, and they get cold and slippery, too.  The black keys seem to be triangular-shaped sometimes, I swear!

[martin_s]

Know what ya mean, mate...

[franklin]

doesnt kawaii make keys that dont slip or absorb moisture or something like that?

[stokes]

What would you think making all keys by wood? Like the black keys and like the organ. At least not slipper.........

[ClassicalPiano2002]

i have the same problem as dinosaurtales...

i get dry hands and then they get cold cuz of nervousness(spelling?) and then it is hard to move them... i hate that

[dinosaurtales]

Dave emailed me a while back with an excellent suggestion - he suggested taking biotin.  It took a couple of months before I had the nerve to try it, but I have been taking it for a month or so now, and it seems to help.  At least they are not that slippery kind of dry anymore.  I guess I need to email him back and let him know it works, eh?

[rich_galassini]

DinoTails,

What is biotin? I have never heard of it before.

[dinosaurtales]

Well, me either.  It's one of a billion "dietary supplements" available at the supermarket.  Apparently you can't OD on it,or take too much, although I've not "tested" any aspect of that - It's supposed to be for skin integrity, whatever that is.  In any case I have EXTREMELY dry skin, and any nervousness makes my fingers cold and slippery dry.  I took the biotin in the one-per-day dose for a few weeks before I really noticed anything, but now they are still dry, but not that yucky slippery dry they used to be.  We'll see what happens over time.

[rachfan]

I was brought up on ivory keyboards.  They always had a sure and luxurious feel.  On the other hand, they need to be constantly washed.  I used to clean my Steinway keyboard hundreds of times, it seemed.  When I switched to Baldwin, it came with the  more modern plastic keyboard.  It is indeed more slippery, but hardly ever needs cleaning.  Plus, I'd rather see the elephants left to live in peace, where they are becoming an endangered species!  Here's one key difference (no pun intended) I've noticed.  Over the years, an ivory keyboard would wear down, and sometimes develop very minute cracks along their length and sometimes nicks or chips along the outermost edge.  The surfaces of some plastic keys instead seem to become pitted in the several notes  around middle C which get the most intensive use.  So that's another trade-off between the two.

[frederic]

sorry im not so quick....whats ivory keys??

[dinosaurtales]

Oh Frederic, you must be young!  Back in the *old* days, the tops of the *white* keys were made out of ivory.  If you see older pianos they will have very *old* looking keys - the ivory gets yellow with age, and gets chipped and wears in the middle where the fingers go.  my piano teacher's Petrof has ivory keys, and it has a TON of character.  But ivory, as we know now is bad to use because we were killing off all the elephants for it.  So now keys are made out of a variety of plastic materials, some better than others.

Does anybody know if ivory keys were ever made out of walrus tusks?    Or is that not officially ivory?  I don't keep up on my National Geographics.

[TwinkleFingers]

maybe those finger sweatbands will do the trick??  Instead of wristbands make little fingerbands close to the webbing of hands.  The only problem would be putting the little nike slogan on it!!!

[allthumbs]

Greetings

See https://Yost.com/music/piano-keys.html

I was reading through the old posts concerning slippery keys and came across this one suggesting sanding the keys as a solution.

Has anyone tried this and would anyone (piano techs especially) even recommend this procedure?

Just curious.

Cheers

allthumbs

EDIT - Hey I just checked the post (#250). I'm now a senior member! (Matches my age!)

[dinosaurtales]

I have not heard of sanding in order to make the keys less slippery, but rather to clean them off!  I doubt if they can sand plastic tops, but they sand the wood sides that collect dirt, and ivory tops to make them whiter again.

[intermezzi]

the ivory gets yellow with age, and gets chipped and wears in the middle where the fingers go.

I just recently learned that the "white" of older piano keys is not actually the ivory, which is more transparent, but a thin piece of linen underneath the ivory, and that is what turns yellow with age. Who knew!

Also if anyone's had experience with it, how does "ivorite," used on some of the upper level Yamaha grands (and maybe other pianos?) stand up to real ivory keys? It seems to have more grip, but I'm no expert player and don't have enough experience playing on ivory-keyed pianos to be a good judge.

[andrewrance]

I have this problem too - I have a Yamaha GC1, which has slippery plastic keys compared to my Broadwood upright which has the original ivory.   I can often feel my fingers skidding off the sharps on fast pieces, which is very disconcerting.   

I was advised by a piano tuner on another forum that it would be OK to use silver polish to take the sheen off the plastic and give the keys a bit of 'tooth'.   I am a bit nervous about doing this on a new piano - I'm having the Yamaha tuned tomorrow (its first tuning since new) and will ask the tuner for his (or her!) opinion.

[quantum]

I haven't played much ivories, but the Yamaha Ivorite on my grand is a definate improvement than other plastic keys.  I used to go slip slip on my Kawai upright. 

[arensky]

Never used to think about this until a student of mine with a pre WWII Baldwin grand (I have a pre WWII Steinway) went to play a concert on a modern Baldwin Concert Grand with the skinny Baldwin black keys. The black keys on our pianos are bigger, harder to slip off of, and are wood, not plastic. So we were living in a sort of time machine. He briefly developed a black key phobia. but fortunately my 2nd piano is a 70's Baldwin Hamilton upright, with the the skinny black keys; we worked there a few times, and he can now make the adjustment from home. I had never thought about this, I just go and play; but I've never liked the feel of plastic, or the look of it, looks like dentures smiling back at you. I like the Yamaha ivorite, and so do the elephants!  bottom line...

Plastic sux     

and Jumbo sez USE IVORITE!! PLEASE...

[allthumbs]

Never used to think about this until a student of mine with a pre WWII Baldwin grand (I have a pre WWII Steinway) went to play a concert on a modern Baldwin Concert Grand with the skinny Baldwin black keys. The black keys on our pianos are bigger, harder to slip off of, and are wood, not plastic. So we were living in a sort of time machine. He briefly developed a black key phobia. but fortunately my 2nd piano is a 70's Baldwin Hamilton upright, with the the skinny black keys; we worked there a few times, and he can now make the adjustment from home. I had never thought about this, I just go and play; but I've never liked the feel of plastic, or the look of it, looks like dentures smiling back at you. I like the Yamaha ivorite, and so do the elephants!  bottom line...

Plastic sux     

and Jumbo sez USE IVORITE!! PLEASE...

Speaking of 'skinny black keys', I've noticed that on some pianos (Steinway in particular) that the black keys were narrower. I would have thought that the dimentions of these would be standard, but that appears not to be the case.

Anyone with any insights as to the differences in width?

Cheers

allthumbs

[Floristan]

While the width of white keys was standardized long ago, neither the width nor the height of the black keys was.  It varies from maker to maker.  I can play between the black keys on some pianos and not others.

I have ivories on my piano.  There's nothing like it.  I don't care how often I have to clean them!  New ivory keytops are still being made, but they are understandably expensive.  Only ivory that is already in the country (I'm in the U.S.) can be used to make new ivory keytops.  Apparently there are a lot of tusks in the U.S. that were never made into anything, so some are being used to make new ivory keytops.  It's illegal either to import or export ivory in the U.S.  I've heard that even old, pre-ivory ban pianos with ivory keytops have been refused at customs -- that the keys had to go back to Europe, then be sent to the U.S. via anonymous FedEx. 

Now I'm just rambling.... 

[quantum]

Now speaking of black keys, the first time I played on a piano with wood ones it felt kinda strange.  But now that I'm used to it on my own piano, they are so much better than plastics, you get a lot more grip and control.  I actually find the black keys on my Yamaha are wide compared to other pianos I have played. 

Does anyone know if Yamaha is the only company using Ivorite, or are other companies employing it or a material with similar properties on their pianos? 

[classicarts]

Ivorite technology is so kool, I wouldn't doubt for a minute other piano manufacturers would use them if they havn't done so , or something similar.  It has a synthetic feel of ivory keys but better, in my opinion.   

[gkatele]

Does anyone know if Yamaha is the only company using Ivorite, or are other companies employing it or a material with similar properties on their pianos? 

A rebuilder that I was talking to wanted to buy keytops from Yamaha for his pianos, specifically because he likes the feel of Ivorite.

Yamaha declined - they said it's their process for use on their pianos (only). Also, anything below a C3 will not have Ivorite.


regards,


George

[elephant]

About the cold hands problem:

I remember coming across in a psychology text a program for people wanting to tackle very low temperature environments. As a means of not loosing heat, the body lowers the flow of blood to the hands when its cold, with the unpleasant side effect of the hands getting hurt.

It turns out that the blodflow with some training can be consciously controlled - if my memory serves me correct, it involved, among other things, using a lightbulb for visual feedback

Something to try...

[iumonito]

Interestingly, I like ivory for the opposite reason.  How can you play Waldstein of the paganini variations if you cannot play glissandi with the fingerprint side of your thumb?  The keyboard has to not be a fly-trap paper surface, so that you can slide.

Ivory does this better than modern keytops.

Same thing with the tapered black notes.  It is painful to play black-note glissandos if those edges are straight.

[classicarts]

I have found out Ivorite do eventually comes off and stick to your fingers!!  Mmm.."fingers lickin good."

[leahcim]

I have found out Ivorite do eventually comes off and stick to your fingers!!  Mmm.."fingers lickin good."

That's something Yamaha supposedly fixed in newer models [and sorted out for existing ones under warranty] - search google groups.

[classicarts]

Thanks, Leahcim for your information.   I will pass it on with others who owns Yamaha's grands as well.     I have searched in google, and the problem references to first generation of Ivorites keytops.  Apparently, they will turn yellow over time.  My keytops looks pretty healthy and white.  However, I will give a Yamaha a call to see what are the options. 

[leahcim]

Thanks, Leahcim for your information.   I will pass it on with others who owns Yamaha's grands as well.     I have searched in google, and the problem references to first generation of Ivorites keytops.  Apparently, they will turn yellow over time.  My keytops looks pretty healthy and white.  However, I will give a Yamaha a call to see what are the options. 

I thought they turned grey because the black comes off on your hands?
https://groups.google.co.uk/group/rec.music.makers.piano/browse_thread/thread/f37a1c8a99d10dc/ed1818f04c0092b6?lnk=st&q=ivorite&rnum=1&hl=en#ed1818f04c0092b6

[classicarts]

My piano doesn't fall into that category.   

[prometheus]

Apparently there are a lot of tusks in the U.S. that were never made into anything, so some are being used to make new ivory keytops.

Don't be so naive.