Adult student delusional about ability, won't do remedial study

[lizschneider]

My subject line says it all - I have an adult student, retired, about 65 and not in great health, who requests I teach him Rachmaninoff preludes and Chopin ballades, but he can't get through a single piece by Burgmuller or a Bach prelude. He has obviously been abused and browbeaten by teacher after teacher. Yet he's such a sweet person with such a great and inspiring, abiding passion for playing piano, that I have truly striven hard to help him. I survived abusive teachers myself, and as a result, I always respect and encourage my students. But I don't want to enable a delusion. That is a strong term, but apparently accurate in this case.

I've practiced with him at each lesson on scales, a short version of Hanon no. 1 in different keys, Czerny-Schaum Volume 1 etc but he finds these difficult and has progressed little. With lots of coaching I helped him perform a cut version of Chopin's Polonaise Militaire which he had learned in college (no telling how, or how long ago). He did learn Bach's first WTC prelude in C, and he can manage Schumann "Of Foreign Lands and People," but that is about all, over lessons for almost 3 years minus several months here and there when he was ill or traveling.
He keeps changing the subject mid-lesson, or saying he is getting tired, or just not being able to master simple repertoire.

One credit to him is that he sight reads pretty well - pitches good, rhythms not so much. And has a fairly good memory for the bits he has mastered. He is on the board of a retirement/nursing home and told me he wanted to play a singalong for the folks on Christmas Day. I couldn't attend, but I printed out easy versions of his requests and made word sheets. I found out later that he had printed a Classical program of difficult pieces by Chopin and Rachmaninoff. He played a few bars of one of them then left the stage. Yet he has not admitted to me anything but success. (I heard from a resident who's a friend, then talked to the activities director and she was embarrassed).

I am really grasping now for how to treat him. A kind of intervention? My husband, a violin teacher, says don't worry you'll break his heart - it has to break to heal. I think of requiring he memorize two of the little Czerny Schaum etudes (they are simple but effective) and start this to begin each lesson, and if they are not learned telling him to try again next week, no lesson. Asking for memory might provide proof he is not just wasting his practice time pretending to play concert repertoire.

By the way - I know what I'm doing otherwise: masters in performance from Juilliard, DMA in pedagogy, church musician also. But teaching always reveals new dilemmas! I would appreciate input from the experience of contributors to this forum. THANKS

[lostinidlewonder]

Some students genuinely need to learn through their interests more than others. While it’s wonderful when a student will simply do whatever is set, more and more we encounter students with very specific musical goals. In those cases it’s important to meet somewhere in the middle (and even this can be a process in itself).

You mentioned that you already tried an easier version of the Chopin piece I think that’s exactly the right direction. Working on more music the student is drawn to, whether through edited versions or small passages, it can be extremely effective.

Engagement is the number one priority for us as teachers. If the student is engaged, meaningful learning can happen. That engagement doesn’t always come packaged with efficiency, especially for students who have a very narrow focus in what they want from the piano, but it's still be a crucial part of their musical journey.

Also memory work (playing without the score)is not always necessary for everyone, you mention he's good at reading so there's nothing wrong just focusing on making his reading skills better and not worry about memorization so much.

[ranjit]

I don't get why you're so insistent on the Czerny etudes. It's possible this student might be motivated by easier Chopin pieces or simple sections of pieces. If he only wants to play pieces that sound musical to him, I think he might be better off (even though it might be suboptimal) leaning pieces he likes.

[quantum]

Does your student have a recurring tendency to start many new projects but rarely see them to completion?  Not just in music, but in anything they have interest in, or even in the mundane events of daily life.  What about planning, does your student like to talk a lot about plans?  How often do these ideas make the leap from plan to action?

Tell us about your student's work habits.  In lesson, how does your student work through a problem?  Say you are working through a problem passage of music that is of reasonable length and complexity to be solved within a single lesson.  Is your student interested, focused, indifferent, distracted, overwhelmed, anxious etc. by the prospect of methodically working to a solution?

I do share ranjit's concern, why are you placing a lot of emphasis on Hanon and Czerny?

[keypeg]

If this student was poorly taught, i.e. browbeaten rather than taught, then he may have never learned how to  approach a piece of music - how to practice in stages - what to do in a single practice session, and organize those practice sessions over days.  This won't be remedied through yet more repertoire of a different kind.

[lizschneider]

Answering Quantum, he does leap from one desire to another without completing the first. This likely occurs to my knowledge outside of music as well but I don't want to be intrusive asking.

To Renjit, I am not at all insistent on Czerny or Hanon but am seeking the most accessible and approachable skill materials to address his insecure technic. I give these as a gentle warmup at each lesson to ease what I observe is a slight tremor and lack of fluency and continuity. I only assigned Hanon number one abridged to 2 octaves, and in D major instead of always C, and in C but with 2-note slurs. I assigned Czerny only as edited by Schaum in an early-intermediate book; Schaum presented etudes as short little bits distributed from one hand to the other (not mostly right hand, as in the original).

Beside these, I have used my software to create simplified versions or "practice pages" of repertoire he does admire and will not be too proud to try. For example, I re-wrote the second movement of Beethoven Op 79 from 9/8 meter to 3/4 because he found it confusing to count. I created a practice version of the Bach WTC 1:1 prelude all in block chords. Similarly I wrote out the theme of Schubert's Impromptu Op 90 no 3, all in block chords. He wanted to play Chopin's Nocturne in C minor so I suggested we work on measures 1 - 16, then cut to m. 41 (last 4 bars) for a good abridgement.  He was very happy to play one hand while I filled in the other but never managed to coordinate hands together.  I've had him try Chopin's own song transcription "Wiosna" because it is about the simplest Chopin I could find and he loves Chopin.

I'm sad for this dear person that he hasn't mastered any of these; not one of these efforts have really taken hold. He still stops playing after a few measures, or cuts to only one hand, or just plays without rhythm and logic. And your question is very perceptive: he often switches goals, and will come to the next lesson with the score of Chopin's "Butterfly" etude claiming he used to play it and he has practiced it for hours. But he can't even play a measure, so I really don't know what he is doing at home. Not to repeat the dictatorial ways of my former, mean teachers - but I'd like to kindly say "I am the one setting goals, you are the student," and in asking for simple things memorized, it might persuade him to focus.

This might be a neurological issue, or something emotional, and I want to be sensitive. I wish he could understand the joy of really mastering simpler music, like Burgmuller's tuneful ones, or some of the Gillock Lyric Preludes in Romantic Style, or Schumann Album for the Young (he loves 19th century).  I wish for him to undertake "remedial" studies without losing face - but so far he only talks about super difficult repertoire and won't practice these things. Like if I should gear up for Mount Everest and travel to base camp, but just climbing my own stairs makes me out of breath. Should I tell him to study elsewhere and just be friends with me? I feel dishonest calling it lessons when musically it isn't working out.

Thanks all for posting and sharing your thoughts. It might not be an isolated phenomenon. We all should aim high and follow our passions. But if we don't have a good foundation, it's not a personal failure - one can acquire many skills and get much closer if the problem is addressed. 

[keypeg]

This last post tends to confirm what I wrote before.

[lizschneider]

Thanks, keypeg, I agree. I could do better at outlining a practice session step-by-step with a particular piece.

[lizschneider]

Quantum, it seemed you had some insights when you wrote, quoting -  "Is your student interested, focused, indifferent, distracted, overwhelmed, anxious etc. by the prospect of methodically working to a solution?" -
There seems a distraction which might mask anxiety; this may be something to explore.

[dizzyfingers]

My subject line says it all - I have an adult student, retired, about 65 and not in great health, who requests I teach him Rachmaninoff preludes and Chopin ballades, but he can't get through a single piece by Burgmuller or a Bach prelude. He has obviously been abused and browbeaten by teacher after teacher. Yet he's such a sweet person with such a great and inspiring, abiding passion for playing piano, that I have truly striven hard to help him. I survived abusive teachers myself, and as a result, I always respect and encourage my students. But I don't want to enable a delusion. That is a strong term, but apparently accurate in this case.

I've practiced with him at each lesson on scales, a short version of Hanon no. 1 in different keys, Czerny-Schaum Volume 1 etc but he finds these difficult and has progressed little. With lots of coaching I helped him perform a cut version of Chopin's Polonaise Militaire which he had learned in college (no telling how, or how long ago). He did learn Bach's first WTC prelude in C, and he can manage Schumann "Of Foreign Lands and People," but that is about all, over lessons for almost 3 years minus several months here and there when he was ill or traveling.
He keeps changing the subject mid-lesson, or saying he is getting tired, or just not being able to master simple repertoire.

One credit to him is that he sight reads pretty well - pitches good, rhythms not so much. And has a fairly good memory for the bits he has mastered. He is on the board of a retirement/nursing home and told me he wanted to play a singalong for the folks on Christmas Day. I couldn't attend, but I printed out easy versions of his requests and made word sheets. I found out later that he had printed a Classical program of difficult pieces by Chopin and Rachmaninoff. He played a few bars of one of them then left the stage. Yet he has not admitted to me anything but success. (I heard from a resident who's a friend, then talked to the activities director and she was embarrassed).

I am really grasping now for how to treat him. A kind of intervention? My husband, a violin teacher, says don't worry you'll break his heart - it has to break to heal. I think of requiring he memorize two of the little Czerny Schaum etudes (they are simple but effective) and start this to begin each lesson, and if they are not learned telling him to try again next week, no lesson. Asking for memory might provide proof he is not just wasting his practice time pretending to play concert repertoire.

By the way - I know what I'm doing otherwise: masters in performance from Juilliard, DMA in pedagogy, church musician also. But teaching always reveals new dilemmas! I would appreciate input from the experience of contributors to this forum. THANKS

I agree with your husband, let him carry his illusions (delusions, if you prefer) to the limit.  He's not capable of undertaking serious piano studies.  He's looking for someone to guide him in his musical dream world.  I think someone - perhaps not an A-class professional piano teacher - should help him do that.  That's what he wants.  He's 65.  He's too stubborn to be pragmatic.  I would let him make the decisions.  Give him easy versions of these pieces he loves, or the original difficult ones if he insists, but let him stumble and fall over and over if he so chooses.  He may wise up eventually.  He may not.  He's looking for an experience.

I think he would be really happy in this scenario:  he goes his teacher's home which is an old-style architecture full of old furniture and decor with a beautiful music room, perhaps an old steinway with the thick legs and ornate music rack, and his teacher speaks with a foreign accent, perhaps Russian, and he plays his piece (badly) and the teacher focuses on one minute detail like phrasing the melody, and there is plenty of talk about the composer and his times, and perhaps performers the teacher has heard, and a vivid world of musical tradition and richness in conjured up, and the conversation digresses, and that's part of the fun.  He's looking for a cultural experience, a piano lesson dream.  Nothing wrong with that at his age, but who's the right teacher to give him that?

[keypeg]

I agree with your husband, let him carry his illusions (delusions, if you prefer) to the limit.

i.e. to act unprofessionally.

  He's not capable of undertaking serious piano studies. 

Very possibly because he was mistaught previously, and that wobbly non-foundation has determined everything thereafter.   It takes a special kind of teacher to cut through to the bare bones, find out what's wrong and ....

He's looking for someone to guide him in his musical dream world.

.... guide him.

  I think someone - perhaps not an A-class professional piano teacher - should help him do that.

Let's change the A-class part.  If the "A-class" teacher is used to teaching advanced students who have a solid foundation, then the focus shifts to interpretation, deeper understanding of music, using the foundations that the student already has. Such a teacher may not know how to build foundations, fix wobbly foundations, and wend through the mess that prior poor teaching has created, because that is a different kind of teaching - and probably the most difficult kind.

That's what he wants.  He's 65. ....

What he wants is guidance, but does not yet know what that looks like.  I'm 71.  So?

  Give him easy versions of these pieces he loves, or the original difficult ones if he insists, but let him stumble and fall over and over if he so chooses.

As long as he works on music in the way he knows how, he will stumble and fall regardless of what he plays, including Czerny and such.  If he were "choosing" to stumble and fall, he'd not be paying for a teacher.

   He may wise up eventually.  He may not.  He's looking for an experience.

If he gets guided where he needs guidance, he will indeed wise up.  It will be an entirely different way of working that he does not yet know - a different mindset that he has not been taught.

[keypeg]

Thanks, keypeg, I agree. I could do better at outlining a practice session step-by-step with a particular piece.

There are a lot of layers to this.

To start, in the early teaching, from some of what you described, he may have been pushed to create complete pieces in a hurry all in one gulp as 'perfect as possible' without ever having been properly guided.  The "one gulp" mindset would be the only thing he knows.  You may have to find out how he actually works on music and practices - or you may have an idea.  You may already have an idea of what skills he doesn't have.  He will have to realize that he's been put on a wrong track, that what he thinks he knows needs changing, and then be willing to put in the hard work to change it.  He may already have an inkling something is wrong.

Skills come in different forms.  Maybe we can call some "approaches".   When working on any piece, dividing it into workable chunks, after having identified sections of music (ABA, movements, etc.)  Then how do I work on that workable chunk?  Do I try to play that passage at tempo, with all the nuances, both hands, at the first go?  Might I work on a single measure, and one aspect such as "right notes with good fingering" and then speed it up, and then voice the prominent voice and whatever?  This might be a thing that I do over 4 days, adding a bit and another bit.  All of this is "approach" - "How do I practise?"  It can be a game changer.  How do you teach it?

Skills can be: Did I ever learn to pedal properly?  And then, use pedal as part of the musical expression.  Do I actually know my note values; can I count - and use it effectively?  Do I know how to play louder or softer at will?  Did I learn an effective way, or a stupid way? ...... If I get to a difficult passage, can I catch (can my teacher catch) what makes it difficult for me, and what to do about it?

I've just dashed things off the top of my head.  This is different than choosing easier music.  You (together) might find a weakness that is best addressed through easier music, but the first task is probably learning HOW to work - otherwise not much is gained through the easier music.

Personally I've been somewhat in the position of this student, but as a trained teacher already knowing I needed the side of this, and also explored this side of it extensively with a teacher for over a decade as we look at the pedagogy side as well.  It is not at all an easy path, and your student may or may not want to work this way - and there is also the question of whether you'd want to.

[ranjit]

Unfortunately, I must admit I'm not the best person to give advice here. I have often learned pieces considerably above my level, often to my detriment, and I know others who have as well, but most of those cases have been people who are interested in the music and have a good memory to begin with which allows them to skip steps.

However, there is one thing I can say: You really should get the student to learn and progress as much as possible during the lesson, and not outside of it. This should gradually model their practice in the future.

[lizschneider]

Oh dear "dizzyfingers" you are so right and so funny! He has studied with Russians (but sadly, to culture, they were unkind - I know there are compassionate Russians out there however so forgive the stereotype). I would love that sort of lesson too, occasionally - oh the atmosphere!!!!!!!!! But I personally could never charge tuition for it!
I do have a nice big black Steinway grand and I graduated from a "famous" conservatory so that checks two boxes, but alas, no glamorous accent, architecture, or flowing caftans.
Dearest "keypeg," the "gulp" method is quite likely what he experienced (here I'd indulge in a Suzuki stereotype but I should rise above that....)
THANKS to each and every one of you responding. Maybe I need a shoulder to cry on and there is no single remedy other than patience. I am glad I discovered this forum.
I shall give it continued effort, patience, more persisting with structure perhaps, and prayer. I shall repost on this topic in the future: he only comes 2 or 3 times per month so I'll let you know after several weeks pass. 

[quantum]

Quantum, it seemed you had some insights when you wrote, quoting -  "Is your student interested, focused, indifferent, distracted, overwhelmed, anxious etc. by the prospect of methodically working to a solution?" -
There seems a distraction which might mask anxiety; this may be something to explore.

I'm not a medical professional, but I have many years teaching and performing and have learned to identify neurodivergent traits in both students and performing musicians. 

From the descriptions you have given in this thread, I have high suspicions your student may have executive function challenges, possibly ADHD (not a diagnosis, I must emphasize).  If the student was unaware at the time studying with previous teachers (undiagnosed) or the previous teachers had no idea how to teach neurodivergent minds, it could be an explanation of the browbeating.  Previous teachers may have even attempted to "normalize" your student.  If your student is neurodivergent, he may have built up a lifetime of experiences being shamed and traumatized by teachers for not being normal. 

From what you describe, distractability and working in short bursts is a common theme of your student.  Realize that working in a structured linear model, while helpful for many students, can feel like pulling teeth to a person with executive function challenges. 

From the piano pedagogy standpoint, instead of a lesson structured linearly working out a single problem, break the lesson up into diverse topics.  Let's call these small topics sprints.  A sprint in a lesson might be only 5 mins, or adjusted even shorter depending on your student's ability.  Choose a range of topics for the lesson, and try to keep the novelty factor for each sprint high.  This might seem like high workload for you as the teacher, but please keep following.  Instead of a six week lesson plan covering six different topics, all six topics are covered in every lesson, only that they are broken down into very small pieces, spread over a period of six weeks.  Same material, just distributed differently. 

So as an example:
2 min, major scale.
5 min, work on 2 measures of Chopin challenge piece. (Do not play through entire piece)
2 min, Hanon.
5 min, guided critical listening to a music recording
2 min, minor arpeggio.
2 min, sight reading
5 min, one measure of Rachmaninoff challenge piece
2 min, four measures of Bach (maybe only tackle a single statement of the contrapuntal subject)
5 min, improvisation
2 min, music theory flashcards, game, or other interactive activity,
5 min, Burgmuller (piece at student's current ability level)
etc.

As a teacher, you can plan this out where all these diverse activities all relate to working on a single technique or concept. 

If you are at all familiar with agile in project management, you might want to experiment bringing in some of those techniques into the piano lesson. 

Some of these techniques might be totally opposite to what you have grown to know as effective learning strategy.  However, some students just can't deal with the highly structured, measured, and long term goal plan.  It is not that they are incapable of learning big pieces, they just need to use a different learning approach to get there.


As to the question of directly bringing up neurodivergence with the student, that is more a delicate manner.  It could be framed as: you (student) are clearly passionate about playing big romantic works.  This kind of music requires a lot of mental stamina and focused work. You might want to have a chat with your doctor if they have any insights in how you might prepare yourself to tackle the physical and mental challenges associated with working on this music. 

[ranjit]

Quantum - well said. 2 minute "challenges" could indeed be very useful and practicable for such a student.

[ranjit]

I am glad I discovered this forum.

And thank you for posting! While not as popular as other forums, I've consistently found brilliant advice here. And some very fun discussions. Do keep us posted.

[keypeg]

Dearest "keypeg," the "gulp" method is quite likely what he experienced (here I'd indulge in a Suzuki stereotype but I should rise above that....)

I think I know the stereotype you're alluding to.

Meanwhile, I tutored a student years ago who came to me reading at a mid-grade one level, and in grade 8 special ed.  The problem was in fact a "gulp scenario" in a sense - less complicated - learning to locate commas and pausing, reading in bits - it was phenomenal and not as expected.  The student read at a grade 8 level half a year later because this had been the actual obstacle.  (It was a few years before I studied music as an adult.)

[lizschneider]

Thanks so much for this detailed advice. I shall really consider this. I work with young kids one day per week and for really little ones I already do this in my own way. "Now we're gonna sing this new song... now, we'll play and say finger numbers. Now we'll take it over to the music stand and step or clap the rhythms.  Now let's use this extra photocopy and sit on the floor and write note names (or even color code them). Now you can play it on the digital keyboard with your choice of wacky voice setting." I have to keep one step ahead, and monitor the kid's energy, but I enjoy this "serious but playful" approach.
 
I guess some adults need the same high level of assistance and guidance. But adjusting to ever changing subjects, rather than repetition, will require as you say even more preparation. You can tell I truly care about this person and have been trying other solutions, so I'll take your suggestion seriously, and consider which tasks to tackle.

[quantum]

Please keep us updated.  Things you learn from this situation can help the next teacher/student. 

[brogers70]

You can tell I truly care about this person and have been trying other solutions, so I'll take your suggestion seriously, and consider which tasks to tackle.

Yes, your commitment to trying to figure out the best approach for him is really admirable. He's lucky to have you as his teacher.

[dizzyfingers]

Yes, your commitment to trying to figure out the best approach for him is really admirable. He's lucky to have you as his teacher.

Agreed!  And it's clear from lizschneider's post about working with young children, she's a very attentive, creative and committed piano teacher  (I should get on the wait list!). 
I sense this particular student - a mature adult (65) - may do well with a mature teacher (50's, 60's?) that has "seen it all" and has a portfolio of psychological maneuvers to outwit his games and self-sabotage.
Then again compassion and commitment go a long long way.

[lizschneider]

haha, from original poster lizschneider - I am 62 and I still have not "seen it all . . " but thanks for possible inference that I am young, the mirror surprises me every day - blessings

[jonathannyc]

Hello Liz Schneider,

Making music through the piano is, firstly, a craft, and only after the craft has been established can we approach making Music. I don't need to convince you of that; we live this daily.

But most adult amateurs don't understand that and look for quick and dazzling results with minimum effort, as if mastery could be ordered and shipped in a package to their doorstep. There are plenty of hucksters out there on the internet selling promises of quick results to beginners, but it is a con game. Those quick results have never been achieved by anyone, not by Mozart, not by Liszt, not by anyone.

You are more serious about the process than your student is - I get it - I am the same way. But at a certain point, we need to make an assessment whether we are going to give the student merely a pleasant hour of 'culture' with music, or politely drop them because it is pointless. We are teachers, not babysitters.

Also, some people really should not take lessons if they will not act upon sound advice from anyone. In that case, they should commit to being dedicated autodidacts and move forward independently.
______________________________
https://www.bakerpianolessons.com

[ranjit]

Making music through the piano is, firstly, a craft, and only after the craft has been established can we approach making Music. I don't need to convince you of that; we live this daily.

This is not self-evident. And I disagree, I tried to make music or have fun ever since I started playing and think it's very important.

[brogers70]

This is not self-evident. And I disagree, I tried to make music or have fun ever since I started playing and think it's very important.

I agree with you. Think of all those folks in college who learned to play a bit of guitar and then hung around with friends singing. All easy stuff, very enjoyable, no pressure. There's a lot of fun to be had for people even at a very basic level of music making.

[keypeg]

wrong section.

[keypeg]

This is not self-evident. And I disagree, I tried to make music or have fun ever since I started playing and think it's very important.

I remember how you started music.  You very much approached it as a craft as well.  You had fun, but you also chased skills and knowledge, intensely.

[ranjit]

I remember how you started music.  You very much approached it as a craft as well.  You had fun, but you also chased skills and knowledge, intensely.

Yes, of course. However, I don't subscribe to the idea that music only comes out after the craft is mastered.

[keypeg]

The story here is not as simple as one of those adult students who wants to have a quick and effortless journey.  We have someone who has been previously taught, and apparently also badly taught.  Expectations, goals and attitudes will have been formed by that teaching.  If you take the analogy of assembling a complex piece of Ikea furniture - which is already hard (and this furniture has moving parts) - We have a piece of furniture that was assembled wrong, that has bits bent out of shape, and broken bits and wrong parts.  This requires special effort and skills by the teacher, and a huge effort and willingness by an aware student.  And that is a tall order.

[jonathannyc]

This is not self-evident. And I disagree, I tried to make music or have fun ever since I started playing and think it's very important.

I am truly glad you had fun, but your experience does not address the original post: the student wants to play the advanced repertoire of Rachmaninoff and Chopin without a technical foundation. Nobody can whimsically "make music or have fun" with that fearsome repertoire. Just check what those same composers had to say about the matter.
 _____________________________
https://www.bakerpianolessons.com/

[keypeg]

@lizschneider - I sent you a PM.  You may not have seen it.

[ranjit]

I am truly glad you had fun, but your experience does not address the original post: the student wants to play the advanced repertoire of Rachmaninoff and Chopin without a technical foundation. Nobody can whimsically "make music or have fun" with that fearsome repertoire. Just check what those same composers had to say about the matter.
 _____________________________
https://www.bakerpianolessons.com/

I did have fun with Chopin waltzes and other pieces when I started. They are not too difficult. Rachmaninoff also has some simpler pieces, like say the C# minor prelude. I just don't like the kind of black and white thinking here. While having a technical foundation is essential, I don't like this (imo false) dichotomy.

[keypeg]

Jonathannyc and Ranjit, you are probably not as far apart as it appears.  The crafting and craftsmanship that J talks about, I know was integral to R's approach while he was "having fun" working on pieces that logically he "shouldn't have" in the first years.  The teaching of crafting, with craft coming first (J), I suspect came hand-in-hand with  pieces rather than dry exercises.

The OP, however, is in a different position, having been mistaught and poorly taught while likely thinking that what he "knows" is real and right.  That's a whole mess to sort out.  Ranjit, when this student is having fun with those pieces, he will not be approaching it as you did, or pursuing what you did.  I do agree with Jonathannyc that craft needs to be pursued and it does seem to need to come first.  How that is done is the time-expensive patience-sapping question.

[keypeg]

Here are some examples from my own background when I returned to piano, where as a child I'd been self-taught 35 years earlier.  We're going back close to 20 years.  I interacted virtually with a few teachers here and there, and I studied with two of them, one longterm.

- I had a recording of simple music, unadorned, aiming for correctness as I was trying to build basic things I felt were missing.  Teacher A wrote of "feeling", adults being stiff and mechanical, afraid to let go.

- So I recorded a sonatina movement, what I used to play as a child, letting go to all that.  Teacher A was over the moon.  Me, not so much.

- Teacher B heard the recording that had delighted A.  He pointed out where my notes became inaudible as I "expressively" played so softly that no sound came out.  He surmised technical problems.  correctly.  That became a goal.

- Timing1 - Was counting, counting strategies, over time a grasp of what pulse really entailed.  When I got back to piano I realized I knew: whole notes, half notes, quarter notes, eighth notes, and "super fast notes that you rush through somehow" and "the thing that did a hop-skip somehow".  I could fudge it convincingly for a teacher looking for "feeling" (and who'd not be able to help me, therefore).

- Timing2 - Where TeacherB would ask "Is this a timing problem or a physical problem?"  The answer would determine what happens next.

These are part of the craftsmanship.

I had a few years of violin lessons before that.  My F on the E string was constantly too high and the teacher showed me repeatedly how it should sound.  The way my hand was angled, it was impossible for me to teach that spot.  In teaching, if a student is doing something wrong, you have to find out why it's wrong.

Conversely, if a student comes into the next lesson having practised their assigned little piece, and plays it through perfectly, is this always a good thing?  If the student slogged through this inch by inch, 5 hours a day, they may have an inefficient and wrong way of practising.  They are also establishing wrong approaches that won't work as music gest more complicated.  There may be missing skills forcing that slog, and those skills will remain missing until at a higher level nothing works anymore.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Let him play what he wants to play.

If it’s really too hard he’ll get discouraged with the Rachmaninoff.  Or he’ll brute force it.  But I never say no to a student who wants to learn something that’s too hard.  I’ll tell them hey this isn’t gonna go well and these are my suggestions BUT I never say no to a student who wants to learn something just because I think it’s too hard

[ranjit]

The teaching of crafting, with craft coming first (J), I suspect came hand-in-hand with  pieces rather than dry exercises.

When this student is having fun with those pieces, he will not be approaching it as you did, or pursuing what you did.  I do agree with Jonathannyc that craft needs to be pursued and it does seem to need to come first. 

I wasn't really commenting on the OP here. I really do believe that musicality must be pursued from the very beginning, both in terms of fine listening as well as in terms of emotional connection. I think the lack of that seldom results in good playing. I don't like the dichotomy between "work" (what real musicians do), vs "fun" (the pretenders). To say that nobody can whimsically "make music or have fun" with certain repertoire seems premature, and the musical ideas can also be simplified and used in different contexts.

[keypeg]

I wasn't really commenting on the OP here.

This being the teacher forum, where a teacher is asking for help and insights, one sort of has to.  That's what the thread is about.

I really do believe that musicality must be pursued from the very beginning, both in terms of fine listening as well as in terms of emotional connection. 

There is more than one view.  Most teachers probably combine both, in varying balances.  It also depends on the student.  I wrote of my own experience in one of my recent posts.  The teacher who wanted "feeling" was frankly useless at that point because of where my needs lay.

I don't like the dichotomy between "work" (what real musicians do), vs "fun" (the pretenders).

Such a thing was not said, and I imagine you extrapolated from things you have heard said or encountered.  It is a good idea to ask persons what they mean, to explain further, so as to get an actual picture.

  To say that nobody can whimsically "make music or have fun" with certain repertoire seems premature, and the musical ideas can also be simplified and used in different contexts.

We have a situation where a student is getting lost piece after piece, unable to finish any of them.  One identified problem appears to be time and timing.  This goes straight to the idea of craftsmanship.  Why is this student losing control of time?  How is time or note values or pulse currently being perceived?  Are there physical technical problems?  How is the student approaching a piece of music?  This goes straight to the "craft" part.

[ranjit]

The teacher who wanted "feeling" was frankly useless at that point because of where my needs lay.

"Feeling solving all problems with craft" isn't what's under discussion here though, because that is obviously an extreme take.

We have a situation where a student is getting lost piece after piece, unable to finish any of them.  One identified problem appears to be time and timing.  This goes straight to the idea of craftsmanship.  Why is this student losing control of time?  How is time or note values or pulse currently being perceived?

Why does the student not hear, or is the student not bothered by said rhythmic imprecision? If the student does not immediately understand what they are hearing, attempting to play music and produce the sound they imagine would arguably make them better. If they can hear exactly where they are missing out on the rhythm and actively want to improve it to sound a certain way, that would be a different situation. If it's technique related but not internal hearing related, then it seems unlikely that the student would not be improving on that count. If it is internal hearing related, attempting to play musically while engaging the ear may well be a solution.

[mforbes]

Another strategy I have not seen suggested is to discuss with the student other skills they have mastered in their life. If you can work with them to figure out how they learned that skill, you can likely find some of the patterns that work specifically for them, and these patterns are often transferable from one skill to another.

For example: consider someone who is great woodworker. One person might carefully plan their work, then execute those plans with precision. Another person might only do the roughest of planning, then make many adjustments by feel as they progress.

When it comes to piano, the first person would probably benefit from careful study of the score first, working on specific skills, then applying them to the piece. In contrast, the second person might benefit more from starting with simple improvisations, playing by ear, then gradually morphing those towards the pieces they are interested in.

The desire to learn Chopin Ballades probably has an analog with something else the student has done. Ask how the aforementioned carpenter eventually completed a large project like a staircase. The could not simply attack that at once - they must first have developed the skills in whatever way works for them.  Once you find this, you unlock their personal learning strategy.

[ranjit]

Another strategy I have not seen suggested is to discuss with the student other skills they have mastered in their life. If you can work with them to figure out how they learned that skill, you can likely find some of the patterns that work specifically for them, and these patterns are often transferable from one skill to another.

This can get quite tough, though. I trained as a scientist, and teachers struggle to figure out how that relates, especially beyond superficialities. One of my teachers would compare me to a cancer researcher he taught who would struggle with technique and maybe be a bit too analytical -- but that's not how I approach music. How do you deal with that? Plus, I'm curious how you would relate a scientist's work to piano playing.

[mforbes]

I'm curious how you would relate a scientist's work to piano playing.

I am a physicist by career that learned piano at the same time. In science I need to
understand things from the ground level.  I couldn't just read a textbook from cover to
cover: instead, I needed to derive the main results from things I knew, dipping into the
text only as needed. I am very problem-driven, learning the techniques and mathematics
as needed.

In contrast, I know people who learned by reading books from cover to cover, or
others learn many different topics through a sort of memorization. These people
tend to know a lot more than me – there are often holes in my knowledge corresponding
to sections of the textbooks I did not read – but I tend to retain the things better
than those who know more, and can quickly derive most of the things I know in a few
steps. Neither strategy is better – just different.  Each person needs to figure out
what works for them.

When it comes to music, I similarly need to jump in where I am interested and then
figure things out from there, going back to "first principles" and learning the
technique as needed.  I never systematically learned or practiced scales, nor started
with standard graded repertoire. Instead, I would pick pieces I wanted to play, then
learn the scales motivated by the music. At first, I could play lots of fragments – the
first 5 bars of many Chopin etudes for example – but could not complete these until
much later.

I imagine that my colleagues who learn by reading the book would do much better
following a set of graded repertoire and systematic study of scales etc. because this
meshes well with their learning style.

The outcomes are different: where my systematic colleagues could sight-read much better
than me in the "easy" key signatures, I could sight-read equally poorly in all scales, and
tended to be better in the "hard" keys.

[mforbes]

I should caution students: my approach to learning the piano was possibly quite risky
with the potential for developing bad and dangerous habits. Several things probably
helped me in this regard: I started playing quite late compared with others, and had
already developed an analytic approach to learning.  For example, I used György Sándor's
book which emphasized the physical and physiological nature of the motion.  Once I
understood how the muscles and tendons moved, I could "derive" how to position my hand
from these principles to deal with technical problems, and never developed any
significant bad habits.  This might also had an aspect of luck, and I strongly recommend
working with a good teacher before you start playing a significant amount. Nevertheless,
this worked well for me, and when I started taking lessons, the focus was on music rather
than on technique.

[ranjit]

Very interesting! Are you an active piano teacher/performer as well? What you've said mirrors my experience very closely.

[mforbes]

I play every day, but do not have enough time right now to bring a full program up to performance standards, so mainly for friends and family with a few side gigs here and there (some accompanying, friends weddings, etc.) I only teach physics these days.

[jeffkonkol]

Maybe extract easier sections out of Ballades to focus on more remedial issues.

Use the opening of Ballade 2 to teach voicing, phrasing, and fingering. (and then graduate to the middle, carefully avoiding the two 'storms' and that brutal coda)

There is a nice waltz in the middle of Ballade 3.

Grab the parallel scales from the coda of Ballade 1... and so on and so forth.

I guess I'm saying, trick him into eating his vegetables :-) Maybe it's not even tricking him. It is allowing him to work on the pieces he loves, while at the same time, allowing you to teach him some of the foundational skills you know he desperately needs to improve.




mimic some of the technical exercises he needs?

[essence]

This can get quite tough, though. I trained as a scientist, and teachers struggle to figure out how that relates, especially beyond superficialities.

I am also a scientist, and the basis for good science is experimentation, imagination, trying alternatives, and getting hands dirty.

Not so different from music.

the popular notion of what a scientist does is far from the reality.

I am more of a data scientist, but the same holds true.

[traceel]

I am 70 years old and my mind certainly isn't as retentive as it used to be. I've recently taken up the piano again, after many years' absence, and I gotta tell you, it's not easy! It could be that your student is having some problems due to his age. I'd love to get back to the level where I left off, but it may never happen. My mind is not as quick, my hands are not as quick, and my vision sucks! He may not be making progress, but if he enjoys what he is playing, maybe that's all that matters.

[ranjit]

I am 70 years old and my mind certainly isn't as retentive as it used to be. I've recently taken up the piano again, after many years' absence, and I gotta tell you, it's not easy! It could be that your student is having some problems due to his age. I'd love to get back to the level where I left off, but it may never happen. My mind is not as quick, my hands are not as quick, and my vision sucks! He may not be making progress, but if he enjoys what he is playing, maybe that's all that matters.

I think this should be talked about more often. Playing difficult pieces that you like listening to poorly might be a lot more motivating than learning "perfectly". There's a clear perfectionistic streak among many piano players which can be rigid and inflexible.

I started out attempting to play whatever I liked because I was convinced that it was absolutely too late to learn to play the piano, since I was an adult. It turned out not to be the case (mostly), and I eventually changed my approach to learn more properly. Had I not started out trying my hand at very difficult pieces, I might not have continued playing the piano at all.

[essence]

i think that is where I have always been. I am never daunted by the difficulty of a piece, so long as I find it musical, and not bothered if I play it badly so long as something is communicated. I have never auditioned for a conservatoire, and am sure I would never pass the audition (for top schools such as RAM or RCM), but that hasn't prevented me from playing advanced Scriabin (sonata #4, #8, #10) , Rachmaninov (op 39 and 2nd sonata), Messiaen (VR), Liszt(sonata), Chopin (4th ballade) or Schubert (Bb sonata) pieces in amateur concerts/masterclasses.

I haven't had a teacher since my teens, although I have had some good masterclasses which were very helpful.