Should i learn Rach 3?

[boic53]

Hello everyone, im a 17-year old pianist with four year experience of piano playing. This was my repertoire for a competition few months ago. Do you think Im ready for Rach 3?

P.S. I would start learning it in half a year because i still have competition to do with this rep

[thalbergmad]

No x 1000
Ask again in another 4 years.
Thal

[lostinidlewonder]

One who is ready for the Rach 3 doesn't ask anyone if they are ready

[boic53]

One who is ready for the Rach 3 doesn't ask anyone if they are ready

That is actually a really good and truthful advice, thank you. However, I will probably look into the second concerto next year then

[rachmaninoff_forever]

It doesn’t matter if you’re ready (you’re not) but if you like it learn it anyways

[dizzyfingers]

Hello everyone, im a 17-year old pianist with four year experience of piano playing. This was my repertoire for a competition few months ago. Do you think Im ready for Rach 3?

P.S. I would start learning it in half a year because i still have competition to do with this rep

I would suggest you write your own piano concerto and play that.
They'll be so impressed they'll pay for the part writing etc.
There are enough pianists in the world, we need more composers.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Ask your teacher; they'll know a lot more about you and your ability than anyone on some internet forum.

And if you don't have a teacher, get one.

I would suggest you write your own piano concerto and play that.
They'll be so impressed they'll pay for the part writing etc.
There are enough pianists in the world, we need more composers.

Maybe drop the sarcasm? If this is someone who can somehow play Scriabin's 5th Sonata at concert level, then a similarly difficult Concerto would be doable. Seeing such derision also makes it a lot less likely that they'll ever come back to the forum.

[dizzyfingers]

Maybe drop the sarcasm? If this is someone who can somehow play Scriabin's 5th Sonata at concert level, then a similarly difficult Concerto would be doable. Seeing such derision also makes it a lot less likely that they'll ever come back to the forum.

No derision intended.  I'll own that my tone is mildly flippant, but that last line makes it clear I am sincere about the suggestion.  I've made it on these forums multiple times.

There's at least one other sarcastic remark before mine, if you're into policing sarcasm.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Ask your teacher; they'll know a lot more about you and your ability than anyone on some internet forum.

And if you don't have a teacher, get one.
Maybe drop the sarcasm? If this is someone who can somehow play Scriabin's 5th Sonata at concert level, then a similarly difficult Concerto would be doable. Seeing such derision also makes it a lot less likely that they'll ever come back to the forum.

I play Scriabin 5 and Rach 3.  Rach 3 is way harder it’s not even close. 

And 5 isn’t even the hardest Scriabin sonata lol

[rachmaninoff_forever]

There are enough pianists in the world, we need more composers.

I couldn’t agree with you more lol

[liszt-and-the-galops]

There's at least one other sarcastic remark before mine, if you're into policing sarcasm.

I'm fine with sarcasm, but if someone joins the forum to post what is to them a legitimate question and one of the first responses is a sarcastic dismissal, then they probably won't come back to the forum. We talk about how this forum is slower than it used to be pretty often, and I think that the frequency of this type of response is probably part of it.

I also fully agree with the fact that we need more composers. But if your reply wasn't sarcastic, then there was no need for "they'll pay for the part writing etc."

I play Scriabin 5 and Rach 3.  Rach 3 is way harder it’s not even close.

I agree, though I feel like most of that comes from Rach 3 involving an orchestra. I was assuming -- perhaps incorrectly -- that OP isn't planning to learn this piece for a concert with an orchestra, which removes a good chunk of the difficulty. Rach 3 is still longer and more technically difficult, but the Scriabin is way harder to interpret (Rach 3 is a showpiece, after all) and is at least in roughly the same ballpark overall (again, ignoring the orchestra entirely).

Yes, no. 5 isn't the hardest Scriabin Sonata (that being no. 8). That speaks more about the difficulty of Scriabin's sonatas than of the difficulty of no. 5.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

I agree, though I feel like most of that comes from Rach 3 involving an orchestra. I was assuming -- perhaps incorrectly -- that OP isn't planning to learn this piece for a concert with an orchestra, which removes a good chunk of the difficulty. Rach 3 is still longer and more technically difficult, but the Scriabin is way harder to interpret (Rach 3 is a showpiece, after all) and is at least in roughly the same ballpark overall (again, ignoring the orchestra entirely).

Yes, no. 5 isn't the hardest Scriabin Sonata (that being no. 8). That speaks more about the difficulty of Scriabin's sonatas than of the difficulty of no. 5.

Lowkeyyyy I think 3 is also harder than 5

Idk 5 is pretty straight forward and only hard to interpret if you don’t listen to anything before like 1900 lol.  Even amongst Scriabin sonatas it’s not THAT out.  This might also be controversial but I think the interpretation of 5 is entirely personality dependent.  You either have it or you don’t you can’t teach it.

People really underestimate the difficulty of just playing Rach 3 from beginning to end without stopping or having it completely falling apart.  Even without the orchestra the amount of sustained concentration puts it in a different league.

It’s like the difference between running a 5k with a 5:00 per mile pace and a marathon with a 5:30 per mile pace

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Idk 5 is pretty straight forward and only hard to interpret if you don’t listen to anything before like 1900 lol.  Even amongst Scriabin sonatas it’s not THAT out.  This might also be controversial but I think the interpretation of 5 is entirely personality dependent.  You either have it or you don’t you can’t teach it.

Interesting. I said that Scriabin 5 was way harder to interpret because, while I've heard plenty of great interpretations of Rach 3 -- often live in concert -- I'm not aware of a single fully satisfactory recording (let alone performance) of Scriabin 5. (And I've listened to a lot more recordings of the Scriabin.) Richter and Peter Laul come the closest IMO, but both of them also have their flaws. Even stuff like Hammerklavier and Gaspard have plenty of great recordings and performances, despite being some of the most infamously hard-to-interpret pieces in standard repertoire.

Rach 3 meanwhile is purely a showpiece and a sizable chunk of it is just empty virtuosity. (Yes, I am a hypocrite, Liszt is one of my 3-4 favorite composers lmao.)

[dizzyfingers]

That is actually a really good and truthful advice, thank you. However, I will probably look into the second concerto next year then

Have you played some Mozart concerti?  Bach?  Beethoven?  Mendelssohn?
Or you prefer to jump straight into Rachmaninoff?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

Interesting. I said that Scriabin 5 was way harder to interpret because, while I've heard plenty of great interpretations of Rach 3 -- often live in concert -- I'm not aware of a single fully satisfactory recording (let alone performance) of Scriabin 5. (And I've listened to a lot more recordings of the Scriabin.) Richter and Peter Laul come the closest IMO, but both of them also have their flaws. Even stuff like Hammerklavier and Gaspard have plenty of great recordings and performances, despite being some of the most infamously hard-to-interpret pieces in standard repertoire.

Rach 3 meanwhile is purely a showpiece and a sizable chunk of it is just empty virtuosity. (Yes, I am a hypocrite, Liszt is one of my 3-4 favorite composers lmao.)

My favorite is a recording on YouTube of some Russian dude Lubyantsev during a comp.  You can hear Toradze in the background screaming BRAAVA afterwards.  Toradze was such a hardass he didn’t think ANYBODY sounded good.

Idk Scriabin 5 has been around for over 100 years I think there’s lots of kids at conservatories and comps who play it good and bad.  Well I think there’s a lot of good and bad renditions of EVERY piece

[boic53]

Have you played some Mozart concerti?  Bach?  Beethoven?  Mendelssohn?
Or you prefer to jump straight into Rachmaninoff?

No, sadly I have not because again, I have only four year experience of piano playing. I’m playing Chopin’s first piano concerto and its the first concerto i learned. I’ve been thinking about it and I decided that I’ll learn the second concerto (Rachmaninoff) next year, and third can wait a little longer, its not smart to rush, I have time still. For that case I also planned to pick some Rach etudes like 39 5, 39 8, maybe even 39 6 so I get into his music (preludes wouldn’t be bad choice either, was thinking about 23 9 since I will play Feux follets). So all in all, I would really like to get along with Rach’s music because he is one of my favourites and I can’t wait to play it.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

For that case I also planned to pick some Rach etudes like 39 5, 39 8, maybe even 39 6 so I get into his music (preludes wouldn’t be bad choice either, was thinking about 23 9 since I will play Feux follets). So all in all, I would really like to get along with Rach’s music because he is one of my favourites and I can’t wait to play it.

You might also check out his Op. 61 paraphrase on the Scherzo from A Midsummer Night's Dream. It's harder than any of his Etudes or Preludes, though IMO it's still a fair bit easier than either Rachmaninoff Sonata.

[dizzyfingers]

No, sadly I have not because again, I have only four year experience of piano playing. I’m playing Chopin’s first piano concerto and its the first concerto i learned. I’ve been thinking about it and I decided that I’ll learn the second concerto (Rachmaninoff) next year, and third can wait a little longer, its not smart to rush, I have time still. For that case I also planned to pick some Rach etudes like 39 5, 39 8, maybe even 39 6 so I get into his music (preludes wouldn’t be bad choice either, was thinking about 23 9 since I will play Feux follets). So all in all, I would really like to get along with Rach’s music because he is one of my favourites and I can’t wait to play it.

We'd luv to hear you play - - post a video if you can.

[boic53]

We'd luv to hear you play - - post a video if you can.

Here, I found a recording of Scriabin sonata

[frodo12]

Here, I found a recording of Scriabin sonata

Well played, my friend!

P.S. Your idea of playing Rach #2 before doing no. 3 sounds great to me.  Best of luck!

[dizzyfingers]

Here, I found a recording of Scriabin sonata

Very well played!  Amazing you've been playing for only 4 years - a natural talent.

[gasplamey]

No it's the bsat piano piece so only the best piansxits should be alaslowed to attmepdt it. No mediocer recoirndgs from poeple who have only beren plahying for 5 yeazrs.

I'm fine with sarcasm, but if someone joins the forum to post what is to them a legitimate question and one of the first responses is a sarcastic dismissal, then they probably won't come back to the forum. We talk about how this forum is slower than it used to be pretty often, and I think that the frequency of this type of response is probably part of it.

okay admin🙄

Rach 3 meanwhile is purely a showpiece and a sizable chunk of it is just empty virtuosity.

You  laearly havent's listended to any rfgood recoirfdngs then. Try Yunchan LIms' his is the best one.

I also fully agree with the fact that we need more composers.

And what ar ytou doing to contirfubtge to this.

[moonlight88]

No it's the bsat piano piece so only the best piansxits should be alaslowed to attmepdt it. No mediocer recoirndgs from poeple who have only beren plahying for 5 yeazrs.

hot take but rachmaninoff is just russian faure but worse and about 30 years later. though faure is still a god so being a worse him is still good

[liszt-and-the-galops]

You  laearly havent's listended to any rfgood recoirfdngs then. Try Yunchan LIms' his is the best one.[/font]

Strangely, I doubt that teenager playing without sleep in a competition is actually better at interpreting Rachmaninoff's Piano Concerto no. 3 than Sergei Rachmaninoff.

/srs Yunchan Lim isn't that good. I haven't given his Rach 3 a listen though his Transcendental Etudes aren't particularly noteworthy compared to e.g. Gyorgy Cziffra or Sergio Fiorentino. I highly doubt that they'd stand up to Nikolai Lugansky, Martha Argerich, Alicia de Larrocha, or Vladimir Horowitz, let alone Rachmaninoff himself.

And what ar ytou doing to contirfubtge to this.[/font]

I'm trying to learn the art, though I've only properly been doing it for about a year and I have no illusions that I'm any good at it.

What about you?

[rachmaninoff_forever]

/srs Yunchan Lim isn't that good. I haven't given his Rach 3 a listen though his Transcendental Etudes aren't particularly noteworthy compared to e.g. Gyorgy Cziffra or Sergio Fiorentino. I highly doubt that they'd stand up to Nikolai Lugansky, Martha Argerich, Alicia de Larrocha, or Vladimir Horowitz, let alone Rachmaninoff himself.

Thank god someone said it.  People act like this kid is the second coming of Jesus.

It’s not all hype though he actually is really good.  And his best recording of Rach 3 isn’t even from the Cliburn comp it’s a year or two later with the BSO lol.  The orchestra is better AND whoever the sound engineers are actually know what they’re doing unlike whoever they hire for your usual piano competition slop.

But his cliburn rach 3 has more hype than it deserves. 

[rachmaninoff_forever]

No it's the bsat piano piece so only the best piansxits should be alaslowed to attmepdt it. No mediocer recoirndgs from poeple who have only beren plahying for 5 yeazrs.

Why is everyone in classical music obsessed with having to go through some sort of religious worthiness ritual to be able to play stuff? 

Music is supposed to be fun even if it’s not good he should still learn it.  If you like the song you should learn it regardless of how it sounds

[essence]

Here, I found a recording of Scriabin sonata

Bravo. Next #8. I don't think there are any impossible virtuosic passages, but as a whole it is long and difficult. Getting the falling fourths to sound like Sofronitsky is, of course, impossible. A falling ripple, like a ......this is a family site.

[gasplamey]

What about you?

I'm oint schol but i';,m doing what i can fdiwth myt feee time don't ebother poisting here bec idc enouhg.

I'm trying to learn the art, though I've only properly been doing it for about a year and I have no illusions that I'm any good at it.

surfel.s lol 🙄

e.g. Gyorgy Cziffra or Sergio Fiorentino

lol a tehcjincian with no music and a guiy no one has evre heard of.

Nikolai Lugansky, Martha Argerich, Alicia de Larrocha, or Vladimir Horowitz, let alone Rachmaninoff himself.

okay okay bad good great but horieebly audio
Try YL.

Here, I found a recording of Scriabin sonata

Bad reocinrd but that's bc the peice is awful not your plauying hwnic is pretrty good.

[boic53]

[/font]okay okay bad good great but horieebly audio
Try YL.

Dude, with all due respect, who are you? Honestly, based on your messages and their statements + your spelling I can only suppose you are here on this forum to ‘ragebait’ other people. How can you even say ADL is bad or Lugansky just okay? Alright, I understand people have personal preferences, but some of your statements are just ridiculous. YL is very good, I agree, but he still has a veery very long way to go and for me personally, he can’t even be compared with all of the pianists above, I mean, c’mon, let’s be serious… I understand you might not like the Scriabin sonata because it’s on a verge between his early and late sonatas. You might want to check out first four sonatas, they’re all incredible music, for me, especially number 3. And once more, I don’t want to be rude but if you are going to continue to write on this forum please watch out how you write words because sometimes I couldn’t understand half of them and please if you are going to make statements like this one elaborate further or just don’t because it just seems like a waste of energy to even process a sentence like such, let alone write a reply on them. Thank you.

Sincerely,
Matej

[gasplamey]

How can you even say ADL is bad or Lugansky just okay?

ADL and Lguansky are bothe great paisnists but their Rach 3s aren't special compwared to Horowitzs Rach or Yunchan.

I understand you might not like the Scriabin sonata because it’s on a verge between his early and late sonatas. You might want to check out first four sonatas, they’re all incredible music, for me, especially number 3.

Scriabin was fantsitastifc until around Op. 30 which is whenr he startde to go dwonsdlihl becasue he bought into the "aotnal" BS his late period is mostyl garbge. His Sonata 2 3 and 4 and Concerto are som of the ebst ever written so is Op. 8.
They typos are ebcause I type rfeally fast and don't beother to fix it because usualyl its funy. COurier font was originally for wehn I was beinjg moderatley unseriosu but now its kinad just a haibt.

[rachmaninoff_forever]

ADL and Lguansky are bothe great paisnists but their Rach 3s aren't special compwared to Horowitzs Rach or Yunchan.Scriabin was fantsitastifc until around Op. 30 which is whenr he startde to go dwonsdlihl becasue he bought into the "aotnal" BS his late period is mostyl garbge. His Sonata 2 3 and 4 and Concerto are som of the ebst ever written so is Op. 8.
They typos are ebcause I type rfeally fast and don't beother to fix it because usualyl its funy. COurier font was originally for wehn I was beinjg moderatley unseriosu but now its kinad just a haibt.

After op. 30 Scriabin isn’t atonal lol

[gasplamey]

After op. 30 Scriabin isn’t atonal lol

Jus tbecause they aren't as absurd as SOrbasji or Schoenberg doesn't maen they aren't atonal. ANd its certtainly not tonal.
Prompt: Are Scriabin's last three sonatas atonal (lack a tonal center)?
The question of whether Alexander Scriabin’s final sonatas—No. 8, No. 9 ("Black Mass"), and No. 10—are atonal is one of the most debated topics in music theory. The short answer is: they are post-tonal, but not necessarily "atonal" in the way we describe Schoenberg or Webern.
...By the time Scriabin composed his last three sonatas (1912–1913), he had completely abandoned key signatures. You won't find a "home" triad in the traditional sense.
Dissonance as Consonance: In these works, intervals that were traditionally "unstable" (like the tritone) become the points of arrival.
...Atonal? Yes, if your definition is "the absence of functional diatonic harmony."
Tonal? No, in the traditional sense.

[thorn]

I heard Lugansky play Rach 3 live once and I agree it wasn't that special. My sister, not a musician but loves Rachmaninoff, just said "that's an angry piece isn't it". But his Prok 2 recording on YT is my favourite rendition of that piece. So I guess he's a mixed bag.

And I imagine you don't like AdL because you don't like Albeniz and that type of repertoire. You seem like one of those people who thinks anything later than Chopin/Liszt/Alkan- or not in that style as say Rach/early Scriabin were- is atonal/noise/degenerative music etc. Which is your personal taste and that's fine.

[gasplamey]

I heard Lugansky play Rach 3 live once and I agree it wasn't that special. My sister, not a musician but loves Rachmaninoff, just said "that's an angry piece isn't it". But his Prok 2 recording on YT is my favourite rendition of that piece. So I guess he's a mixed bag.

Lugansky is proba the best living Russian tinterpretr and his Rach is usualyl fantastic but his Rach 3 juts doesnt' wor,k.

And I imagine you don't like AdL because you don't like Albeniz and that type of repertoire.

She's good espcieallty her Mozart but she sucks in Chopion and yes she was obassaessed with ALbenizs.

Chopin/Liszt/Alkan- or not in that style as say Rach/early Scriabin were- is atonal/noise/degenerative music etc.

I don';t like unnecessatry difficulty like all of Alkan/most of Liszt and anything 'atonal' is just thta but also sounds like shxt.

[liszt-and-the-galops]

Music is supposed to be fun even if it’s not good he should still learn it.  If you like the song you should learn it regardless of how it sounds

Agreed.

Scriabin was fantsitastifc until around Op. 30 which is whenr he startde to go dwonsdlihl becasue he bought into the "aotnal" BS his late period is mostyl garbge. His Sonata 2 3 and 4 and Concerto are som of the ebst ever written so is Op. 8.

Funny. Outside of his Concerto I find that the only Scriabin that I can even stand is his late period, which is fantastic. His 5th Sonata is one of my absolute favorites, and I love the 6th, 8th, 9th, and 10th as well (7th is good but hasn't ever grown on me as much as the others). I also like his later Etudes a lot more than Op. 8. And as others said, Scriabin isn't atonal at all lmfao.

Tonality is a spectrum. On the one end you have very tonal composers like Mozart, and on the other you have truly atonal composers (which are few and far between). Late Scriabin is arguably closer to atonality than tonality, but he still isn't very close to true atonality and is IMO a lot closer to being right in the middle. For the record, Sorabji also isn't atonal, and Albeniz is more tonal than late Scriabin.

Then you have stuff like Trois Mouvements de Petrouchka which exists outside of the tonal-atonal spectrum altogether.

They typos are ebcause I type rfeally fast and don't beother to fix it because usualyl its funy.

This isn't a Last post wins thread.

unnecessatry difficulty like all of Alkan

I could make a whole thread explaining why this is bullsh_t, and honestly I probably will because I'm sick and tired of hearing this repeated by people who have listened to one pianist play maybe five Alkan pieces. But that's neither here nor there.

[dizzyfingers]

Dude, with all due respect, who are you? Honestly, based on your messages and their statements + your spelling I can only suppose you are here on this forum to ‘ragebait’ other people. ... I mean, c’mon, let’s be serious…  And once more, I don’t want to be rude but if you are going to continue to write on this forum please watch out how you write words because sometimes I couldn’t understand half of them and please if you are going to make statements like this one elaborate further or just don’t because it just seems like a waste of energy to even process a sentence like such, let alone write a reply on them. Thank you.
Sincerely,
Matej

You're giving him way more respect than he deserves, and than he wants.
You got it right on the first statement:  ragebait
And bait of other kinds as well ...

Some of these members have been on this forum for so many years they care for nothing but witty sword play.  Sadly, they can't bypass a topic they've already discussed 1000 times, but to make it interesting they must find some new angle of trolldom.

[boic53]

Hello everyone, im a 17-year old pianist with four year experience of piano playing. This was my repertoire for a competition few months ago. Do you think Im ready for Rach 3?

P.S. I would start learning it in half a year because i still have competition to do with this rep

Dear people, just so I inform you, I started learning the third concerto, its almost been around five days and I am currently on the development of the first mvt. I have to admit, Rachmaninoff is very difficult to read because there’s so many layers and polyphony and huge hand stretches (even though I have normal hand size and can reach 11th) which makes it difficult to sightread, but honestly all of it lies so well in the hands and of course a lot of fingerwork is required. I’ve also read through first pages of third mvt and at first the left hand was actually so much harder than the repetitions in the right hand but I can already play first couple measures in tempo so im very sure I’ll be able to handle the whole concerto. I plan to finish reading it by the end of may or by mid june.

[dizzyfingers]

Dear people, just so I inform you, I started learning the third concerto, its almost been around five days and I am currently on the development of the first mvt. I have to admit, Rachmaninoff is very difficult to read because there’s so many layers and polyphony and huge hand stretches (even though I have normal hand size and can reach 11th) which makes it difficult to sightread, but honestly all of it lies so well in the hands and of course a lot of fingerwork is required. I’ve also read through first pages of third mvt and at first the left hand was actually so much harder than the repetitions in the right hand but I can already play first couple measures in tempo so im very sure I’ll be able to handle the whole concerto. I plan to finish reading it by the end of may or by mid june.

That's great but - given your considerable talent - I still encourage you to explore composition ...

[perfect_pitch]

Dear people, just so I inform you, I started learning the third concerto, its almost been around five days and I am currently on the development of the first mvt. I have to admit, Rachmaninoff is very difficult to read because there’s so many layers and polyphony and huge hand stretches (even though I have normal hand size and can reach 11th) which makes it difficult to sightread, but honestly all of it lies so well in the hands and of course a lot of fingerwork is required. I’ve also read through first pages of third mvt and at first the left hand was actually so much harder than the repetitions in the right hand but I can already play first couple measures in tempo so im very sure I’ll be able to handle the whole concerto. I plan to finish reading it by the end of may or by mid june.

It is doable... I can play it and I can only reach a 10th.

[essence]

. I plan to finish reading it by the end of may or by mid june.

Strange. Why can't you finish reading it in a few hours or at most a couple of days? Skip the difficult/unreadable bits? I think I may have a different approach to music to some others.

[boic53]

Strange. Why can't you finish reading it in a few hours or at most a couple of days? Skip the difficult/unreadable bits? I think I may have a different approach to music to some others.

Im sorry, in my language by reading I meant memorising

[boic53]

That's great but - given your considerable talent - I still encourage you to explore composition ...

Sure, I enjoy improvising very much, so I think I will wait for few years until I become really good at piano and then I will be able to compose everything I have in my mind, including the orchestral works (because I hear orchestra in pretty much everything)