Mephisto Waltz how dificult is it?

[Triton LE 76]

Hey geys, i'm wondering how difficult the mephisto waltz is...
Is it more difficult than chopin 10.4 and fantasy impromptu?
(i've never heard the song, just that it is difficult..)

[paris]

definitely harder than fantasie impromtu

[mikeyg]

See for yourself
https://www.sheetmusicarchive.net/compositions_b/lz_mw1.pdf (Busoni transcription)

[lostinidlewonder]

There is just much more you can musically do with the Mephisto than what you could ever do with those Chopin peices you mention. There are so many different ways to express what Liszt writes there, the path is really set for you to not only play these notes, but to express them with your full independant musical voice. You do not have to do that as such an extent with the Chopin but in this Liszt you need this mature musical mind and natural expression much more clearly understood.

[pianomann1984]

The Mephisto is fiendish, though perhaps not as emotionally involving as most Chopin.  But I think it requires lots of strength, stamina and energy, and, although not as emotionally involving, still requires a lot of variation in tonal colour and subtle pedalling.  It's seriously tough, but hey, that never stopped me (I never finished it, but had a great time studying it - will come back to it and finish soon!).  Go for it, but don't expect miracles! 

[steinwayguy]

Easy as pie.

[lostinidlewonder]

Warm apple?

[Bacfokievrahms]

Tank: Hey motorcycle, meet me at the Quad buddy!

[Bacfokievrahms]

Haven't played the mehisto waltz but it looks much harder than the fantasie impromptu, and it's actually a very cool sounding piece. Definitely growing on me for some reason.

[thierry13]

It is at miles ahead of fantaisie impromptu for difficulty. Really. Believe me. If you would find TOO easy, really a walk in the park to play something that is again harder than FI, by chopin, then maybe with work you could play it.(to get it to performance level, of course).

[Triton LE 76]

Wow...
Looks harder than chopin opus 10 etude 4 also..
Maybe I should take a deeper look at it!

[thierry13]

Hahaha. Chopin etude no.4 is one of the easiest chopin etude. Mephisto is a lot harder than that lol .

[steinwayguy]

Hahaha. Chopin etude no.4 is one of the easiest chopin etude. Mephisto is a lot harder than that lol .

what? Maybe if you're Sviatoslav Richter, which, I guarantee you, you are sure as hell not.

[Triton LE 76]

Hahaha. Chopin etude no.4 is one of the easiest chopin etude. Mephisto is a lot harder than that lol .

Well well thierry13... If you think you can play as fast as Richter and as good as him, you sure are good.. But it is something that says to me that some here in this forum can't...

[Triton LE 76]

what? Maybe if you're Sviatoslav Richter, which, I guarantee you, you are sure as hell not.

Well said SteinwayGuy...

[thierry13]

I'm not alone to find it as one of the easiest. Easiest is not easy, easiest is a RELATIVE term.If it is one of the easiest, then others are harder so, I'm not better than anyone, but I find easy other things and hard other things. This is really different than what you seem to understand of what I say.

[thierry13]

And by the way, what the hell is the link with Sviatoslav richter? I haven't heard his version? And I didn't said I could play as well as Richter too, wich is false. But compared to other etudes I find this one easier. But I just love it too. And how can you GUARANTEE I'm not as good as Sviatoslav? Maybe I'm Marc-André Hamelin and can play it 10 times better? Maybe I can play it better? You can guarantee nothing on me. Btw I sure am not marc-andré hamelin and not better than richter for sure lol. But you can tell nothing on me. You haven't even heard me play ? I could just act as stupid like you and tell you : So, I'm bad because I'm not sviatoslav richter, and you for SURE is able to play it 99999 times better than me if you know my playing SO WELL than you can GUARANTEE I can't play well. But you see I'm not attacking people on no purpose like you. But you see It would be really easy to just insult you like you just allways do for me. But I'm not as childish as you. Ironic : I can GUARANTEE you you would be too afraid to say me things like that in real life.

[musik_man]

Thierry, you've told us you've been playing for less than 2 years.  I think it's safe to say that Richter can outplay you even without hearing you.  To be honest saying that Richter is better than any board member is an accurate statement.

I think the reason SteinwayGuy is angry at you, is because you laughingly dismiss the difficulty of 10.4 when you haven't been playing long enough to even look at pieces of that difficulty.

BTW the video of Richter playing 10.4 is scary.  He plays it in 1:30 

 

[steinwayguy]

I'm not alone to find it as one of the easiest. Easiest is not easy, easiest is a RELATIVE term.If it is one of the easiest, then others are harder so, I'm not better than anyone, but I find easy other things and hard other things. This is really different than what you seem to understand of what I say.

Alright, well here's a list of the etudes easier than Op. 10 No. 4-
Op. 10 No. 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12
Op. 25 No. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12

Seeing as there are 14 etudes listed, Op. 10 No. 4 is not one of the "easier" Chopin etudes.

And by the way, what the hell is the link with Sviatoslav richter? I haven't heard his version? And I didn't said I could play as well as Richter too, wich is false. But compared to other etudes I find this one easier. But I just love it too. And how can you GUARANTEE I'm not as good as Sviatoslav? Maybe I'm Marc-André Hamelin and can play it 10 times better? Maybe I can play it better? You can guarantee nothing on me. Btw I sure am not marc-andré hamelin and not better than richter for sure lol. But you can tell nothing on me. You haven't even heard me play ? I could just act as stupid like you and tell you : So, I'm bad because I'm not sviatoslav richter, and you for SURE is able to play it 99999 times better than me if you know my playing SO WELL than you can GUARANTEE I can't play well. But you see I'm not attacking people on no purpose like you. But you see It would be really easy to just insult you like you just allways do for me. But I'm not as childish as you. Ironic : I can GUARANTEE you you would be too afraid to say me things like that in real life.

If you're Marc-Andre Hamelin, then you can play it equally fast, equally clear and how bout 5 times less musical. Congratulations.


And um, no? You're incoherent and illogical. Your contributions to this forum are few and far between.

[Triton LE 76]

And by the way, what the hell is the link with Sviatoslav richter? I haven't heard his version? And I didn't said I could play as well as Richter too, wich is false. But compared to other etudes I find this one easier. But I just love it too. And how can you GUARANTEE I'm not as good as Sviatoslav? Maybe I'm Marc-André Hamelin and can play it 10 times better? Maybe I can play it better? You can guarantee nothing on me. Btw I sure am not marc-andré hamelin and not better than richter for sure lol. But you can tell nothing on me. You haven't even heard me play ? I could just act as stupid like you and tell you : So, I'm bad because I'm not sviatoslav richter, and you for SURE is able to play it 99999 times better than me if you know my playing SO WELL than you can GUARANTEE I can't play well. But you see I'm not attacking people on no purpose like you. But you see It would be really easy to just insult you like you just allways do for me. But I'm not as childish as you. Ironic : I can GUARANTEE you you would be too afraid to say me things like that in real life.

Sorry if i have been offending you, i looked at it as a counterattack because i feeled like you offended me at the first time..
Almost finished with 10.4. Anyway, i'm miles away from Richter who plays it at 1:36 (8 pages) and as clearly as i think anybody in this forum can do

[thierry13]

Alright, well here's a list of the etudes easier than Op. 10 No. 4-
Op. 10 No. 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12
Op. 25 No. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12

Seeing as there are 14 etudes listed, Op. 10 No. 4 is not one of the "easier" Chopin etudes.


If you're Marc-Andre Hamelin, then you can play it equally fast, equally clear and how bout 5 times less musical. Congratulations.


And um, no? You're incoherent and illogical. Your contributions to this forum are few and far between.

Difficulty is TOTALLY subjective. I'm not the first one to say that this one is one of the easiest. Tough, the other people who say those things, never get attacked for it. Some people say op.25 no.6 is one of the or even THE easiest, and they never get attacked.


What I said was IRONIC, as if you would read my posts, I said myself I found those kind of statements STUPID, and in fact, this is YOUR kind of statement, wich I ironically reproduced. If you find my contributions are few, I don't think yours are better, since all you do is attacking me. And Marc-André Hamelin is for sure better than you, or you would be more famous than him. SO, If he play it 5 time less musically than Richter, then you must play it ... 10 times less musical than Richter? This is really low dude, I don't think you can attack me on my playing with this...

Thierry, you've told us you've been playing for less than 2 years.  I think it's safe to say that Richter can outplay you even without hearing you.  To be honest saying that Richter is better than any board member is an accurate statement.

I think the reason SteinwayGuy is angry at you, is because you laughingly dismiss the difficulty of 10.4 when you haven't been playing long enough to even look at pieces of that difficulty.

BTW the video of Richter playing 10.4 is scary.  He plays it in 1:30 

 

I KNOW that I am NOT Sviatoslav Richter. Richter IS better than me. The thing is that he said that in a way like : you are HELL not him !!! Like if I had no talent, could never be pianist. And he never heard me. That is the fact that frustrated me.

Some people say that the etude in thirds is one of the easiest? I think this is by far more difficult than op.10 no.4 . Those people NEVER get attacked. I allways do, and for nothing. What you mean by "looking at". Since I can play pieces I find harder than it. Revolutionary etude is, for me, harder. And, if my teacher is OK, I can play it better than most of the people of my age she heard play this piece. This is not what I think, this is what my teacher said me.

[musik_man]

You think that 10.12 is harder than 10.4

I'd like to hear your 10.12, considering you're learning it after less than two years.  That's much faster than almost anyone progresses.

[thierry13]

You will since same if there are no recording of my end-year recital, I just met someone who could have the possibility to record me on a good Yamaha upright. So whenever I have the occasion to go back there(I don't know when), I will record me playing.

[paris]

Alright, well here's a list of the etudes easier than Op. 10 No. 4-
Op. 10 No. 1, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12
Op. 25 No. 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 12

please guys don't fight      this ranking is totaly subjective. first of all, every piece is hard if you want to play it good. then, difficulty depends on your arm, constitution...  i'm not ashamed by saying that op.25 n.1 whas far more complicated for me than op.10 n.1 & 9 
i think that op.25 n.12 is one of the hardest etudes, and steinwayguy ranked it like easier then op.10 n.4.   completely subjective! 
i haven't read whole thread, but somebody said that thierry has played for 2 years, how can he even talk about chopin etudes, and judge which is harder? 

[thierry13]

i haven't read whole thread, but somebody said that thierry has played for 2 years, how can he even talk about chopin etudes, and judge which is harder?

humm... let me think ... by playing them? What the hell, is everyone taking me for a dumb because I've been playing for less than 2 year? I think it's more than enough to know what's hard and easy for me to do.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

-

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

humm... let me think ... by playing them? What the hell, is everyone taking me for a dumb because I've been playing for less than 2 year? I think it's more than enough to know what's hard and easy for me to do.

Hehe, thank you for my entertainment for today.

Thierry, I'll explain something to you, you are not as good as you think you are. Pianists who have been playing for two years are not capable technically of playing Chopin etudes of that difficulty. Judging by the majority of your posts, you make a lot of ridiculous statements regarding difficulty, and yet, you expect us to take you seriously. Give me a break...

[thierry13]

Lot of people do. And I do. You think op.10 no.1 and no.12 are too hard for me? Give me a break, you didn't even heard me play.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Lot of people do. And I do. You think op.10 no.1 and no.12 are too hard for me? Give me a break, you didn't even heard me play.

Yes, actually I do think that Op.10 No.1 and No.12 are too hard for you. Unless of course you are a reincarnation of Mozart, in which case I apologize. But for some reason, I doubt that you are...

I don't need to hear you play. I know for a fact that if I heard you play a Chopin etude, it would most likely be mediocre at best. To build up the type of technique required for Chopin etudes would take you more than two years. And that is still with a lot of dedication and practice.

Of course, maybe I was just a slow beginner. After all, 90% of the people who join these forums all claim that they can play the Rach 3 after a few months of playing. I wonder what is wrong with me!

[thierry13]

I'm no reincarnation of Mozart, and I'm satisfied by the level of my revolutionary etude, and my teacher says that I play it better than the majority of the people of my age (15 years old). That is NOT what I think, that's what my teacher says me. I never heard other people of my age play it, so I just can't aprove. And by the way, I CAN'T play the rach 3. If you think playing etude op.10 no.12 is equal to playing rach 3 you have a serious problem there.

[Dazzer]

And by the way, what the hell is the link with Sviatoslav richter? I haven't heard his version? And I didn't said I could play as well as Richter too, wich is false. But compared to other etudes I find this one easier. But I just love it too. And how can you GUARANTEE I'm not as good as Sviatoslav? Maybe I'm Marc-André Hamelin and can play it 10 times better? Maybe I can play it better? You can guarantee nothing on me. Btw I sure am not marc-andré hamelin and not better than richter for sure lol. But you can tell nothing on me. You haven't even heard me play ? I could just act as stupid like you and tell you : So, I'm bad because I'm not sviatoslav richter, and you for SURE is able to play it 99999 times better than me if you know my playing SO WELL than you can GUARANTEE I can't play well. But you see I'm not attacking people on no purpose like you. But you see It would be really easy to just insult you like you just allways do for me. But I'm not as childish as you. Ironic : I can GUARANTEE you you would be too afraid to say me things like that in real life.

I'm guessing you're all referring to the C# minor? (sorry my knowledge of the etudes is pathetic.)

sviatoslav richter: 1:30min. near flawless (if not flawless) notes. I have a video of that somewhere... maybe i'll post it up.

[paris]

Lot of people do. And I do. You think op.10 no.1 and no.12 are too hard for me? Give me a break, you didn't even heard me play.

yeah, you maybe went through the piece, and read the notes...and you call that playing. 
 i'm very curious and i'd like to hear your magnificent performance of op.10 n.1 ! can you record yourself and sent to us...i'm sure i'll be astounded...

oh, and take my deep apologises if i'm wrong 

[Dazzer]

i'm thinking of giving the Mephisto a whirl.

I can't seem to get page 15 working though
( the liszt transcription, not the busoni)

speaking of which... what's the difference? which is better? The busoni seems harder ...haha

[BoliverAllmon]

there is a teacher who is playing this in a recital soon. He says that it is hard, but not as hard as one would think. He felt that it fell under the hands nicely. it wasn't awkward like some of his other stuff.

[thierry13]

yeah, you maybe went through the piece, and read the notes...and you call that playing.
 i'm very curious and i'd like to hear your magnificent performance of op.10 n.1 ! can you record yourself and sent to us...i'm sure i'll be astounded...

oh, and take my deep apologises if i'm wrong

If your "you call that playing" referred to the revolutionnary etude, then no. I went far from only the notes. When I'll be finished with this one, it will be at a university standard of playing. And for the op.10 no.1 , I just began to work on it like 2 lessons ago... so like at the end of the summer I will be able to get you a recording. And by the way, if you all think the only thing I'm able to do is notes, then there I can tell you're wrong. The revolutionnary etude, when played well, can be touching by moments (to me), and I touched my teacher(wich CAN'T be done when only playing "notes" like what you're thinking). So hold your words until you heard me play.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Then record yourself, for God's sake! Prove us wrong! That is the only way we can truly believe you. And even then, we can't be sure. How do we know it's not your teacher?

Thierry, I am positive everything you are saying is a lie. The joke is over. Give up.

[SteinwayTony]

This thread is pathetic.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

This thread is pathetic.

I agree.

[thierry13]

First, I can't record me right now, when I will have a possibility I will, be sure of that. And when I will record me, to be sure it's me, I will say : IT'S ME THIERRY at the end of the record, when ill be able to do so.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

Anybody can record their voice at the end of somebody else's recording. I could take a recording of Horrowitz playing this piece and record in my voice at the end. It isn't that hard.

[pianomann1984]

This thread is pathetic.

I agree.

I second that.  Maybe if you all spend a little more time studying, and a little less time squabbling in this petty manner, then you might actually make some progress.  I already studied these works some time ago, but chose not to say anything as I play them to a standard that is satisfactorily acceptable to me.  I have sufficient artistic confidence to be able to say that I am happy with the way that I play the works, and would not post them because I do not need the assurance from you immature fools.  I think you are all missing the point of the original thread anyway, which was infact to help a fellow musician decide whether he/she should attempt the Mephisto Waltz.  Please stop bickering.  It really is embarrassing.  Maybe it would be worthwhile you reading the thread on jealousy in Miscellaneous?  I think it would help. 

As for comparisons with Richter...noone should ever make such stupid comparisons, as none of us are Richter, and that style is part of a history of pianism that no longer exists.  Sviatoslav Richter was a phenomenon, the likes of will will probably never be seen again (he was also an extrememly quiet, modest man - perhaps something you can all learn from.)  So please do not insult his past legacy by even thinking such things, and that goes for any other past legend in the history of piano playing aswell.  I am embarassed after this to even think that I might be part of a profession in which such stupidity and childish doggedness are so commonplace.  Stop it.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

I second that.  Maybe if you all spend a little more time studying, and a little less time squabbling in this petty manner, then you might actually make some progress.  I already studied these works some time ago, but chose not to say anything as I play them to a standard that is satisfactorily acceptable to me.  I have sufficient artistic confidence to be able to say that I am happy with the way that I play the works, and would not post them because I do not need the assurance from you immature fools.

I would like to let you know that I take offense to that remark, and I think your arrogance basically negates everything you said. I could go on for pages about what you said, but I'll leave it at that.

By the way, I'll let all of you know that I am taking a break from this forum. I'm not sure how long, but I am sick of the stupidity and arrogance I've had to deal with. Please, don't bother replying to this post. You won't get a response.

[pianomann1984]

My apologies, but I was on your side Rachabji!  My attempt was only to express the simlar frustration that I feel with the constant bickering that I see here.  I feel it is just not necessary to argue over a piece of music.  It was wrong of me to make the remark about 'immature fools' in such a general way.  By this, I was only referring to those people on this forum that are arguing on such personal terms.  It irritates me so much that music, which I beieve should be a mature and noble persuit, should become such a battleground.  I would hope that you read on after this comment to discover that this was, in fact my point and that this was not an arrogant statement, but simply the way that I am seeing the behaviour of a few of the members of this forum at the moment (not including yourself, who I believe to be quite rational and well thought out in your responses).  As you say, I will probably not get further response, but please accept my sincerest apologies for any offense that I may have caused.  Please feel free to go on for pages, or contact me personally on pianomann1984@hotmail.com, as I would be delighted to continue this conversation. I hope you realise that by saying that 'I second that,' I was simly stating how much I agree with you.

[Ludwig Van Rachabji]

My apologies, but I was on your side Rachabji!  My attempt was only to express the simlar frustration that I feel with the constant bickering that I see here.  I feel it is just not necessary to argue over a piece of music.  It was wrong of me to make the remark about 'immature fools' in such a general way.  By this, I was only referring to those people on this forum that are arguing on such personal terms.  It irritates me so much that music, which I beieve should be a mature and noble persuit, should become such a battleground.  I would hope that you read on after this comment to discover that this was, in fact my point and that this was not an arrogant statement, but simply the way that I am seeing the behaviour of a few of the members of this forum at the moment (not including yourself, who I believe to be quite rational and well thought out in your responses).  As you say, I will probably not get further response, but please accept my sincerest apologies for any offense that I may have caused.  Please feel free to go on for pages, or contact me personally on pianomann1984@hotmail.com, as I would be delighted to continue this conversation. I hope you realise that by saying that 'I second that,' I was simly stating how much I agree with you.

Indeed, it should be I who is apologizing. I completely misunderstood your post. I just assumed (wrongly, it turned out) that when you said "immature fools" you were including me. I am very sorry that I overracted.

I still plan on retiring from this forum for a while, however, and see if the constant arguing and arrogance will die down. But I do offer my sincerest appologies - I've had a difficult week, and this topic was really starting to irritate me.

I think that the best way to get this thread to die is to ignore Thierry and his ridiculous posts. I think it is a waste of my time to continue responding to him.

Anyway, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, and I'm glad that we agree with each other. 

[pianomann1984]

Me 2   I think you are right.  I will join you in your boycott of Thierry's posts! 

[thierry13]

Do whatever you want until I post my records...

[etudes]

Hehe, thank you for my entertainment for today.

Thierry, I'll explain something to you, you are not as good as you think you are. Pianists who have been playing for two years are not capable technically of playing Chopin etudes of that difficulty. Judging by the majority of your posts, you make a lot of ridiculous statements regarding difficulty, and yet, you expect us to take you seriously. Give me a break...

Well i play not longer than two and a half years and i can play (yeah not all) but the easy from the etudes like op.10 no.3 5 6 9 12 op. 25 no.1 2 and what is the problem??
if u had worked hard for a long time 2 years is enough to pushed yourself into that technique
yeah i also tackled op.10 no.4 and op.25no. 6 that mentioned in this thread and the second ballades i think about this difficulty is depends on person and how and how hard he or she work
regards
anyway back to the topic i think memphisto is much more difficult in the term of endurance and mental becoz its 5 times longer than the etudes and it takes time to work until performance level