2ndary dominant triads and 7ths, 2ndary leading tone triads etc. OH MY GOD

[Tash]

we're learning stuff around this area in harmony at uni and it's going way over my head cos it's really quick and i don't have anything to practice on. can someone recommend some kind of theory book that explains anything to do with this stuff well and has practice questions in recognising and writing them that would be available in sydney?? thanks!

[BoliverAllmon]

we're learning stuff around this area in harmony at uni and it's going way over my head cos it's really quick and i don't have anything to practice on. can someone recommend some kind of theory book that explains anything to do with this stuff well and has practice questions in recognising and writing them that would be available in sydney?? thanks!

only books I know of that go this far into theory (you are out of basic theory now congratulations) would be school text books. I can answer any questions that you may have though.

[galonia]

tash, try First Year Harmony and Second Year Harmony by Lovelock - very old fashioned books and most people find it rather dry, but it's to-the-point and I found these helpful.  I'm not sure if they cover the things you're talking about, though.

The other thing you can try is looking at the higher-grade musicianship/theory texts for the AMEB exams.  They're harder to find because most people only do up to Grade 6.  I don't think I used a text when I did Grade 7, I just relied on the Lovelock for the composition parts, and the Grove for the form and history part!

Hasn't the lecturer set a textbook for the course?

[bernhard]

Try this one:


J. P. Clendinning & E. W. Marvin - "The musician's guide to theory and analysis" (Norton)

It covers everything, assumes you know nothing, and it is very well written (it is almost 800 pages though! )

There are 3 accompaniying CDs, a Workbook with plenty of exercises and an "Anthology" with 62 fundamental works form Bach to Broadway. (These are separate form the book and have to be ordered separately).

They also have a website with more information:

www.wwnorton.com/web/musictheory

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[Tash]

yeah we have a textbook but my lecturer wrote it himself to accompany the lectures so it's kind of vague when you're not in the lesson- good for musical examples but not for practicing. i will check out those lovelock books though, thanks. yeah i was considering looking at the higher AMEB theory books, maybe i'll do that this week.
and thanks bernhard i'll try seek out your suggestion too
and boliver once i start attempting to make sense of these bizarre things if i have an q's i'll ask you cos you appear to be a theory freak!

[Bob]

I never understood why these things (2ndardy dom, V7, o7's) where considered more difficult.

If you have understanding a V I or viio I, I don't think it should be that hard.  Just think in a different key for a second.  Or think of how the chord collapses down into the chord it resolves to.

Maybe you could practice V I's Tash?  or practice viio7's to any  major or minor triad.

Nearly any chord in a key can have some 2ndardy type of chord attached to it.  The only expection I can think of is a chord built on viio, although there's probably some way to lead up to that too.

Did V I, V7 I, viio I, and viio7 I  make sense Tash?  Just think of those for 2ndard dom functions.

[richard w]

You could also try Harmony by Walter Piston and Mark Devoto. Piston wrote the book and Devoto added to it some years later, I think. It covers everything you would want to know about harmony, and should be available, but it is probably not the best idiot's guide. Not that I'm saying you are an idiot.

You could also ask here too.


Richard.

[Tash]

i swear i replied to this but my computer must've gone mental in the process. so i realised that i should really try looking in my syllabus paper at the recommended texts for harmony and looky here there's a fat list of books i can look up! gee whiz i'm so smart.
so yeah bob they're probably not that difficult, but we've only done 1 lesson on them and i just need to make sense of it all and it should be ok.
i'll let you know when i cane my test! once again thanks all you're champs!

[Tash]

can't be bothered starting a new thread cos it's relate to this. ok so i'm analysing the chords and non-harmonic tones in this piece right. except now i've gotten myself confused cos i don't know whether the what originally look like non-harmonic tones are in fact 7ths of the just played chords! i've scanned what i've done already, you can check to see if the chords i've written so far are right (but don't tell me what it really is, just say it's wrong if it is), i'll be going over it again soon, but someone help my non-harmonic tones cos they're turning into 7ths by the second!
https://tinypic.com/4pupg3

[allchopin]

Tash, remember this basic rule of thumb:  if there is an NCT (non-chord tone) that creates a seventh, if it is a dominant (V) chord, then it acts as a seventh.  Otherwise, it is just an NCT.
Now let's analzye some things - I've put up my analysis to the best of my abilities here: https://tinypic.com/4q0owp

The unorthodox progression in the first measure (which I will call the measure after the pickup measure, which doesn't seem to be the way they labelled it) leads me to believe that the V > iii is possibly just a passing figure, although there is no stepwise motion and no suspensions... oher than that I don't know why Martin would have done this.
in Bar 3, the third chord could be interpreted two different ways, depending on how you view the escaping tone (D).  If you think the D is an NCT, the chord is a viio in first inversion, otherwise it is a dominant second inversion with a seventh.  Although either progression works, the first seems more plausible because doubling the second scale degree in the dominant chord is not as typical as the second in a seventh, so I would view it as a seventh with an NCT.
In bar4, I'm not sure why you had labelled the second chord as a I, but it is actually a dominant with a, 8-7 suspension, which resolves (C down to B) in the next measure.
In measure 5 (labelled 6) you named the second chord a vii yet vi does not lead to vii - the eigth notes are actually passing NCT's (which I put in parentheses) put on the downbeat, which actually creates a ii7 on the '&' of beat two.
Be careful in measure 6 where the F becomes naturalized on beat 4, creating a dominant chord as tonicization to C major (V/IV) which indeed leads to a IV in the next measure.

If anyone notices that I did something wrong or disagrees, let me know.  Does this resolve some issues Tash?

[Bob]

I'm not sure if this helps, but don't forget to play through it on the piano.  Let your ear give you the answers to questions.

I'm not sure I understand you question.  Were you wondering if these are triads or sevenths chords?  Playing through it would give you a lot of information.

[Daevren]

This is really easy. Ask your teacher to explain it again. You don't need a whole book explaining it.

I also don't see how a book will be helping in your situation. Don't you have a book already?

[Tash]

ok thanks for that dareven i'll have a look at all that in a minute. i have absolutely no idea why i have that chord V as a chord I, i tend to completely mis-write things sometimes so that's probably why... like i said this is just my 2nd draft of it so i haven't looked over it properly yet.
yeah it's not overly hard i'm just thinking about it too much and confusing myself!
and yep bob i've played it on my piano, and rephrasing my confusing self, i was just getting muddled over whether the quavers were non-harmonic tones or 7ths of the chords they are mished with. but it's ok i''m sorting my brain out!

[Daevren]

Non-harmonic tones are tones without a harmonic function. They are never part of chords, they do not contribute to harmonic movement. Often they are melodic decoration.

Seventh chords are chords with 4 notes. A triad chord has a root, a third and a fifth. A seventh chord stacks one more third on top of that to get a seventh.

A dominant chord is used to mean two things. Its either the chord on the fifth degree(the V) in a key. Or its a seventh chord with a major third and a minor seventh. (Dom7 meaning dominant seventh)

Because in the major key the fifth degree has a dom7 as the seventh chord these terms are linked.

The seventh note of the major scale is called the leading tone. This is because it leads strongly to the tonic, the first note of the key. In C major the B is the leading note. Notice the leading tone is always the key right next to the tonic key on the keyboard. Its just below/to the left of the tonic note/key.

In the chord on the Fifth(V) degree in major, the third of that chord is the leading note. The G major triad chord is G B D where the B is leading strongly to C, the tonic. No note leads so strong as the leading note, thus the name.

A secondary dominant is the dominant of the dominant. In C major, the C chord is the  tonic(I) chord. G is the dominant chord(V). From the I its a perfect fourth up to the V. If we take the G chord(V) and count up a perfect fourth we get to the note D. Normally C major has a Dm chord. But in the key of G major we have a D chord. D is the V in the key of G major. D to G is like G to C. Both are a pair of V and I chords. So a D chord resolving to a G chord in a C major piece of music is called a secondary dominant. Often for more strenght a D7 chord is used(dom7 chord). So D7-G7-C.
In roman numbers its common to notate this as V7/v - V7 - I
 
You can add SD's(secondary dominants) to almost every degree in your key. You can have V/iii, V/ii, V/vi. Note, the V of IV is build on the I degree, and the V of vii is also not common. Both are still possible, but they could be called a bit more problamatic.

(everyone who is confused don't read any further)

Allchopin, I think you should consider what you wrote. The seventh in a seventh chord is not what you call a Non Chord Tone(/note). Also, a note not belonging to a chord is not a sign of a seventh chord. Now if you see four different notes aligned vertically, not that is a sign of a seventh chord. But it still could be something else, for example, not a chord at all.

Chords with four notes are just as much chords as triadic chords. If we get ninth chords and above it gets different because very often one note is left out. A thirteenth chord with all seven notes will be rare.

[BoliverAllmon]

Non-harmonic tones are tones without a harmonic function. They are never part of chords, they do not contribute to harmonic movement. Often they are melodic decoration.

Seventh chords are chords with 4 notes. A triad chord has a root, a third and a fifth. A seventh chord stacks one more third on top of that to get a seventh.

A dominant chord is used to mean two things. Its either the chord on the fifth degree(the V) in a key. Or its a seventh chord with a major third and a minor seventh. (Dom7 meaning dominant seventh)

Because in the major key the fifth degree has a dom7 as the seventh chord these terms are linked.

The seventh note of the major scale is called the leading tone. This is because it leads strongly to the tonic, the first note of the key. In C major the B is the leading note. Notice the leading tone is always the key right next to the tonic key on the keyboard. Its just below/to the left of the tonic note/key.

In the chord on the Fifth(V) degree in major, the third of that chord is the leading note. The G major triad chord is G B D where the B is leading strongly to C, the tonic. No note leads so strong as the leading note, thus the name.

A secondary dominant is the dominant of the dominant. In C major, the C chord is the  tonic(I) chord. G is the dominant chord(V). From the I its a perfect fourth up to the V. If we take the G chord(V) and count up a perfect fourth we get to the note D. Normally C major has a Dm chord. But in the key of G major we have a D chord. D is the V in the key of G major. D to G is like G to C. Both are a pair of V and I chords. So a D chord resolving to a G chord in a C major piece of music is called a secondary dominant. Often for more strenght a D7 chord is used(dom7 chord). So D7-G7-C.
In roman numbers its common to notate this as V7/v - V7 - I
 
You can add SD's(secondary dominants) to almost every degree in your key. You can have V/iii, V/ii, V/vi. Note, the V of IV is build on the I degree, and the V of vii is also not common. Both are still possible, but they could be called a bit more problamatic.

(everyone who is confused don't read any further)

Allchopin, I think you should consider what you wrote. The seventh in a seventh chord is not what you call a Non Chord Tone(/note). Also, a note not belonging to a chord is not a sign of a seventh chord. Now if you see four different notes aligned vertically, not that is a sign of a seventh chord. But it still could be something else, for example, not a chord at all.

Chords with four notes are just as much chords as triadic chords. If we get ninth chords and above it gets different because very often one note is left out. A thirteenth chord with all seven notes will be rare.

in every theory class you will take 7ths are considered non chord tones. They act like them, must be resolved like them, and can even be named like them. even tall chords are considered non chord tones.

boliver

[Daevren]

What?

Not every seventh chord is resolved. Seventh chords can even be very constant. And even if not, a non chord tone is a note that is not part of any chord. And the seventh of a seventh chord obviously is.

Calling a non chord tone a tone that needs to be resolved makes no sense. It would cmake the diminished fifth in the vii chord a non chord tone, and thus a vii chord does not exist. Two notes make no chord.

If you take the Tristan or Prometheus chord then all notes of these chords are chord notes. Even if they are at strange intervals like augmented fifth or ninths.

Sounds to me that "every theory class" is wrong. Sounds like a teacher trying to take the easy way in teaching conservative (obsolete) harmony.