ocean depth (e.g. Beethoven's late Sonatas)

[tds]

people mention that the last three sonatas of beethoven are deep. what contribute to the depth of music? best, tds

[pianomann1984]

That's a great question.  Tbh I really dont know!  I think it's just because they don't make a lot of sense!  especially that bizarre Joplin impression that he does in the 2nd movement of Op 111!  I think the problem is just making sense of them which is difficult to do untill you've had the experience of lots of other music - which comes with age, and thus might be confused with a sense of emotional depth.

[jlh]

Beethoven was more "experimental" in his last compositions in his late period.  So they have more of a romantic style than his earlier works.  He was also completely deaf at this point, so maybe he had a somewhat impaired vision of what they sounded like (not very likely, but maybe a little).  I don't know -- good question.

[Bob]

It think deep is when the composer is getting beyond music itself, when the ideas are breaking new ground or pointing toward the future of music history.  In Beethoven's case, I think it's where the piano and the music are just a path toward something else, like a religious experience.  Deep can also be when a piece is complex and you can find more and more logical and interesting patterns each time you study it.

[dinosaurtales]

I think they say it's "deep" when they don't know either, but they want you to think they are brilliant anyway.  Otherwise they'd have an actual expalanation.  All I know is he did experiment a lot in his last few years, and lots of it (like the end of 111, for example) is very un-pianistic.  I mean, can you get any more awkward than those trills?   

[tds]

It think deep is when the composer is getting beyond music itself, when the ideas are breaking new ground or pointing toward the future of music history.  In Beethoven's case, I think it's where the piano and the music are just a path toward something else, like a religious experience.  Deep can also be when a piece is complex and you can find more and more logical and interesting patterns each time you study it.

thank you for your take, bob. i like reading what you have written. the question still remains to be answered in many different points of view. take one from the composition point of view, lets say: what  composition techniqus or devices or "tricks" (lol) that does contribute to the depth of music? best, tds

[pianonut]

dear tds,

i think it is the chord progressions, harder to find melodies, and forms that start being expanded as if he has all the time in the world to play the piece.  I like what my music history teacher just gave us to read about Beethoven.  It is an article on Beethoven's 'new way' by Philip G. Downs.  he says "Beethoven appears to be intent on creating an area in which maximum differences in texture, melody, and rhythm are juxtaposed closely while still giving an appearance of flow from one to another."  This is spoken about the Eroica symphony, but it is a style he kept on teasing until the 9th symphony and his late piano sonatas.  In the Eroica you can readily split it up into it's 'components' as with earlier sonatas, in the ninth symphony and the later sonatas (the last three) you have less detection of where the line stops and starts.  He makes groups so large and different in components, and lacking in repetition that "he cannot allow it to take part in his new dramatic development - he can only use it to fulfill the recapitulatory principle.  i suppose what applies to the eroica can also start being applied the farther you go in the sonatas.  certain material is not developed and expanded at the expense of other material.  There are "relationships, alliances, perils, and threats - that are not immediately or remotely suspected until they turn up." 

leaping bass  - a rosseau-esque figure - helps communicate a purpose.  "Beethoven's new way integrates the two essential elements of the temporal (dramatic, discursive,narriative) and the spatial (formal, recapitulatory)  sometimes the bass line falls further in the recap than the exposition (lacking will?) and yet 'heroism lies in the rational adjustment of that which is out of phase, and the result is security."  Beethoven was something of a contradiction - he takes us along for a discourse as he 'overcomes himself.'  maybe fear of death is replaced with a sort of understanding about the world with music deeper than philosophy.

[tds]

dear pianonut,

thank you for taking time and effort to contribute. i like what i read, tho in parts i am not quite sure if i understand correctly.

i think it is the chord progressions, harder to find melodies, and forms that start being expanded as if he has all the time in the world to play the piece. 

yeah, like the sentence above. i dont quite understand it. btw, what kind of chord progressions are you referring to?

he says "Beethoven appears to be intent on creating an area in which maximum differences in texture, melody, and rhythm are juxtaposed closely while still giving an appearance of flow from one to another." This is spoken about the Eroica symphony, but it is a style he kept on teasing until the 9th symphony and his late piano sonatas. In the Eroica you can readily split it up into it's 'components' as with earlier sonatas, in the ninth symphony and the later sonatas (the last three) you have less detection of where the line stops and starts.

" Beethoven appears to be intent on creating an area in which maximum differences in texture, melody, and rhythm are juxtaposed closely while still giving an appearance of flow from one to another." i like it and it seems to be truer with the late works.

He makes groups so large and different in components, and lacking in repetition that "he cannot allow it to take part in his new dramatic development - he can only use it to fulfill the recapitulatory principle. i suppose what applies to the eroica can also start being applied the farther you go in the sonatas. certain material is not developed and expanded at the expense of other material. There are "relationships, alliances, perils, and threats - that are not immediately or remotely suspected until they turn up."

i like what i read here. thank you

leaping bass - a rosseau-esque figure - helps communicate a purpose.

can you give us an example, pianonut

"Beethoven's new way integrates the two essential elements of the temporal (dramatic, discursive,narriative) and the spatial (formal, recapitulatory) sometimes the bass line falls further in the recap than the exposition (lacking will?) and yet 'heroism lies in the rational adjustment of that which is out of phase, and the result is security."

i am not understanding it. can you please clarify? thanks

Beethoven was something of a contradiction - he takes us along for a discourse as he 'overcomes himself.'

why is it a contradiction, pianonut?

maybe fear of death is replaced with a sort of understanding about the world with music deeper than philosophy.

interesting. but what is philosophy? how can an understanding about the world with music be deeper than philosophy?

[pianonut]

dear tds,

i have a class tonight on just this subject!  i'll try to answer quickly, for now, and then more later.

the reason i think beethoven was a contradiction, is that his thoughts wavered from suicide (many times - at least three or four) and giving up to heroic gestures by continuing to compose, taking care of his nephew Karl (despite Karl's attitude toward him for many years), and dealing with his deafness and continual bodily disfunction (had severe bowel troubles, water retention - from possible kidney problems *hepatitis?) and more and more reclusiveness because of these things.  he never gave up.  his motto was - as long as there is a possibility of doing good for someone else, people should not wish to die or kill themselves.  he became closer to his idea of God _ and for God,"time simply does not exist."  you can hear his wishing to understand eternity by especially the last two sonatas and the joy within the pain of the 9th symphony.

i played the sonata op. 10, #3  (largo section) which aptly describes the first depression he felt when he was going deaf.  it wasn't a small thing for such a great person to deal with the physical and spiritual depth of such a problem.

my report tonight deals with beethoven's deafness.  there is no real answer even yet, although the closest i've come is a possiblity that he had something called 'sarcoidosis.'  BUT, even the scholars (ie internet site: beethoven-haus - for museaum of artifacts - ie. ear trumpets, etc.) do not truly know.  he had many symptoms.  they used to treat syphillis with mercury, but it was found in his autopsy that he didn't have much mercury in his system!  so perhaps he was simply dreaming of women and not really doing much but writing letters (once in a while to his immortal beloved).  he was more aescetic and probably didn't drink as much as they said he did either.  DID YOU know back then that they 'sweetened wine' with LEAD?  he did have high traces of lead in his hair.  Poor guy!  And, he had so many many health problems.  When he died, he was in a lot of discomfort.  ok.  this is probably more than you were asing...but i haven't answered your question about the rosseau-esqe figures in bass.  i will look at the last three sonatas (i've heard them, but not played them) and show you what i mean by the bass sometimes going lower in the recaps.  it is just an 'item' of interest for me and not a scholarly research that took years and years.

[Derek]

I think depth must have very personal meanings for each individual. I don't think there's any objective basis by which one can say a particular piece is deep.  One can objectively determine if there is a lot of detail; but not whether a piece neccessarily communicates deep emotions or ideas to the listener, or whether it was even conceived by a composer having deep thoughts.

Therefore it is equally possible for one musician to find a John Field nocturne "deep" as it is for another to find a late Beethoven sonata "deep.", for example.

I honestly believe the musical establishment at large has simply done what most institutions do---establish gods to worship, whether those "gods" want to be deemed that way or not.

Let me qualify what I say by saying I am equally given to having deep reactions to music---however it doesn't often correlate with what I'm "supposed" to think is deep.

[pianonut]

no one has ever told me in a class to favor any composer (or one over another).  even my piano teacher , who probably has some personal favorites, is very open to all composers.  despite my saying that i like mozart and beethoven and play them more than some other composers, i have never told anyone that their music is deeper or more profound than say Chopin, Scriabin, Rachmaninov or Shostakovich.  Many of the russian composers lived very difficult lives, too.  I think from difficulty one learns to cope in whatever ways are most helpful. For Beethoven, this was moving into composition seriously (as he probably wished to perform well his Emperor Concerto - but it was not well received at the time - if i remember correctly).

Deepness and profoundness to me is when you see a composer progress from the first compositions he writes to a certain fluency of his or her style that opens up the door of curiosity for those who study their works.  you can see patterns develop.  you can hear things that you didn't hear before - and with analysis you start to hear different layers in music.  the top layer is what your impression is without studying details.  the next might be going and getting the score, reading about the composers intentions, and listening while looking at the score - making note of the form and all
the third layer is probably a better understanding of why the composer did certain things.  why did he choose to do this over that?

in haydn, mozart, and beethoven's later works, they are 'profound' in that they almost throw out form and allow emotion to enter more fully.  with haydn's creation oratorio you hear the profoundness of the first section Chaos represented musically (following the text and not form as much).  in fact, non of the pieces sung in the creation have an exact form, only a similarity to the forms. 

In Beethoven, also, you have a desire to express certain ideas (whether spiritual or philosophical) and he almost becomes like Einstein in his last sonatas.  if you hear a younger student play them - you say - wow that was impressive.  but if you hear an older person (say in their 60's or older) play them, you say 'that was actually moving - you can almost hear his thoughts progress from chaos to sublime, from temptation to submission of will to 'fate' or 'providence' and good overcoming evil.  Beethoven claimed at one point that he overcame himself.  he did not want to stay static and unimaginative.  he wanted to be a sort of guide for people who start out with humble beginnings and seriously study to the point that when they get to the end of their lives, they can trace the journey and be satisfied with the results of all their work.  to me this is deep.     

[tds]

no one has ever told me in a class to favor any composer (or one over another).  even my piano teacher , who probably has some personal favorites, is very open to all composers.  despite my saying that i like mozart and beethoven and play them more than some other composers, i have never told anyone that their music is deeper or more profound than say Chopin, Scriabin, Rachmaninov or Shostakovich.  Many of the russian composers lived very difficult lives, too.  I think from difficulty one learns to cope in whatever ways are most helpful. For Beethoven, this was moving into composition seriously (as he probably wished to perform well his Emperor Concerto - but it was not well received at the time - if i remember correctly).

Deepness and profoundness to me is when you see a composer progress from the first compositions he writes to a certain fluency of his or her style that opens up the door of curiosity for those who study their works.  you can see patterns develop.  you can hear things that you didn't hear before - and with analysis you start to hear different layers in music.  the top layer is what your impression is without studying details.  the next might be going and getting the score, reading about the composers intentions, and listening while looking at the score - making note of the form and all
the third layer is probably a better understanding of why the composer did certain things.  why did he choose to do this over that?

in haydn, mozart, and beethoven's later works, they are 'profound' in that they almost throw out form and allow emotion to enter more fully.  with haydn's creation oratorio you hear the profoundness of the first section Chaos represented musically (following the text and not form as much).  in fact, non of the pieces sung in the creation have an exact form, only a similarity to the forms. 

In Beethoven, also, you have a desire to express certain ideas (whether spiritual or philosophical) and he almost becomes like Einstein in his last sonatas.  if you hear a younger student play them - you say - wow that was impressive.  but if you hear an older person (say in their 60's or older) play them, you say 'that was actually moving - you can almost hear his thoughts progress from chaos to sublime, from temptation to submission of will to 'fate' or 'providence' and good overcoming evil.  Beethoven claimed at one point that he overcame himself.  he did not want to stay static and unimaginative.  he wanted to be a sort of guide for people who start out with humble beginnings and seriously study to the point that when they get to the end of their lives, they can trace the journey and be satisfied with the results of all their work.  to me this is deep.     

oh, did i tell you that i liked pianonut?

tds

[ramseytheii]

"The port from which I set out was, I think, that of the essential loneliness of my life—and it seems to be the port also, in sooth, to which my course again finally directs itself! This loneliness (since I mention it)—what is it still but the deepest thing about one? Deeper, about me, at any rate, than anything else; deeper than my 'genius,' deeper than my 'discipline,' deeper than my pride, deeper, above all, than the deep counterminings of art."

Henry James, letter to W. Morton Fullerton (1900)

[pianonut]

dear tds,

i like you, too, in case you hadn't noticed!

and ramseytheii,

that is very poignant and although Beethoven didn't want to admit it(loniness)...he also wanted a family. But, it is difficult for an artist to have both!  His gaining custody of Karl made him think he would have a true family, but it wasn't as peaceful as he had hoped and also he only allowed certain friends into his circle after attempting to be inclusive.

beethoven says in his heiligenstadt testament that he doesn't want to completely shut out the world, but in effect, he does.  he goes for the lonliness and isolation more than socialization.  yes, you are right!