which scales and arpeggios? hanon's?

[ShiroKuro]

Everyone always says "don't play Hanon, but do play scales and arpeggios."  Well, how about the scales and arpeggio sections in Hanon?  Are those ok? Is there some other book of scales and arpeggios that is better? What are people generally referring to when they say "sacles and arpeggios?"

In Hanon, exercise 39 is just straight scales, then there are half step-scales, arpeggios, arpeggios in octaves etc.

One of the criticisms of exercises like Hanon and Czerny is that you can get the same exposure to technique simply by working on pieces.  So can this be gotten from pieces, or is it important to play scales and arpeggios separately?

If I am going to be practicing scales and arpeggios, is there any reason why I shouldn't do the ones in Hanon?

[thierry13]

Why use book for scales? It's useless. Ask your teacher to show you. If you don't have a teacher, get one, since with a book saying you what to do or no, you will get bad habits for sure.

[ShiroKuro]

I don't mean to sound argumentative, but why not use a book for scales and arpeggios? Why is using a book useless?

I do have a teacher, and during my lesson, I want to spend as much time working on pieces as possible, so I prefer to do as much of the exercise-type stuff on my own, and then have her listen and check what I've worked out.  I am careful to not develop bad habits, and like to have my teacher check for that of course.

Maybe there's something I'm missing, but it seems to me that having a book is very convenient.

[thierry13]

From this point of view, it's ok. But just make a search for a list of scale over the internet and print it. No need of a book for this. And making your teacher listen, will make sure what you've done is ok. So no need of a book.

[sznitzeln]

These are some scales I think many classical pianists choose from:

Major, Different Minor scales... I'm pretty bad with the terminology, but in English I think its Harmonic, Natural, and Pure.
These are the most important, you should play them in thirds, sixths and ocatves. (the interval between the hands)
First play 4 octaves up, then 4 down, 2 up, then RH 2 up , but LH 2 down,
then play the hands back to the middle, then both hands go up 2 octaves, back down to the middle, split, back to the middle, finally down 2 octaves.
If you can do this in thirds, sixths, octaves, in all keys without hitting wrong notes (or very few) everyday, in fast speed, I would say its PERFECT. Of course I am far far far below perfect.
Scales have the following benefits: Good training for the hand, overall improvement in technique, helps eveness, and some rythmical playing... you can use a metronome and play different numbers of notes on each beat. Also you can have different rythm in the hands. When you can do a rythm with your scales, its not so hard to transfer it to a piece.
More benefits: Ear-training, major scale very important for that, its good to sing along sometimes. Automatic fingering for parts of scales in pieces. A better feeling for tonalities and accidentals. Perhaps even more...

Then there are arpeggios, these should be done in all 3 positions, then you can do something like this: c e g c , e g c  e , g c e g , etc ... c e g e , descending: c g e c , g e c g , etc ... c g e g , c
Also these can be done in the way I described the scales, 4 octaves up and down, middle, spread, togheter , up , down , spread , togheter, down.

Then there is the chromatic scale. This can be done with different fingerings, different base tones, different intervals between the hands perhaps. Its a very important scale.

You can also vary accents, articulation, and other things.

You can play octave scales, broken octave scales, octave arpeggios, broken octave arpeggios, etc , etc,

I think these are all good, but unless you practice them like 2 hours a day, I dont think you have time for everything. The major scales are most important, then the other scales, then arpeggios, but still very important. The exercises I mentioned last are of speciffic use if you have a piece that contains them...

Enjoy your scales   (Btw, I think those in Hanon are good too)

[bernhard]

Hanon's fingerings are not the best (although they are the orthodox. standard fingerings, required by many an examination board - which just goes on to show the power of tradition over good sense).

If you haven't yet, have a look here :

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2153.msg18525.html#msg18525
(Fingering for chromatic scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2313.msg19807.html#msg19807
(Speed of scales – important factors in speed playing and an alternative fingering for scales).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2533.msg21955.html#msg21955
(structured plan to learn scales and arpeggios – includes description of repeated note-groups and other tricks)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2619.msg22756.html#msg22756
(complete unorthodox fingering for all major and minor scales plus an explanation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2701.msg23134.html#msg23134
(Teaching scales – the cluster method and why one should start with B major).

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2758.msg23889.html#msg23889
(scales & compositions – the real importance of scales is to develop the concept of key, not exercise)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2920.msg25568.html#msg25568
(how to play superfast scales)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2983.msg26079.html#msg26079
(Best order to learn scales – what does it mean not to play scales outside pieces)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,2998.msg26268.html#msg26268
(Scales HT, why? – why and when to practise scales HS and HT – Pragmatical  x logical way of teaching – analogy with aikido – list of piano techniques – DVORAK – realistic x sports martial arts – technique and how to acquire it by solving technical problems – Hanon and why it should be avoided - Lemmings)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,3499.msg31548.html#msg31548
(using scales as the basis for free improvisation)

https://pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7226.msg72166.html#msg72166
(Thumb over is a misnomer: it consists of co-ordinating four separate movements).



Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[ShiroKuro]

Bernhard, thanks for the links! I stocked up on paper for my printer!    Now if only my teacher could read English, we could go through all these posts together...

Anyway, thanks again. I will read through these past posts, and if I still have a question, I'll put it in this thread.