Getting a reasonable quality recording of yourself

[torchygirl]

Hey PFers-

I would like to record myself on an acoustic piano, but I don't know the best way to go about it.  I would like to get a reasonable recording, and expect to buy some new stuff to do this.  What I don't want to do is have to mess with things for hours on end to get it right.  Can I just plug a mic into my laptop (Thinkpad) and put on Media Player or something?  I have no idea about MIDI cards and the like (beyond that they have something to do with music and they should be all capitalized ).  Any recommendations on mic (desire good bang for buck) and placement of it (inside my Seiler upright?).

Sending good thoughts out to all of you-
Karen

[silva]

I use a digital camera to record the sound then import it

heres a recording

www.ukbboys.homestead.com/files/hard_times__not_polished_.wav

its reasonable if not my piano is a bit old and crap lol

the microphone thing should work....... maybe record yourself at a short distance as to make the sound not overpowering for the microphone.....

You can use sound recorder in start > all programs> accessories > (then maybe communication)

if it isnt there try a program called audacity, its free, small and its great

if you cant find it through google try www.download.com

its a great program and very easy to use

if u have trouble email me and ill help you out

silvaskione@hotmail.com

- Silva

[thierry13]

Then post your records, it could be interesting 

[silva]

j

[xvimbi]

First off the bat, recording piano is one of the most difficult things to do (in terms of recording an instrument.) That does however not mean that you can't get a decent recording with fairly little investment. What you need is a good microphone (better yet, make that two) and an amplifier. Your computer should be good enough to record without being bogged down. The amplifier is necessary to get the signal properly into your computer. There are small amplifiers available that you can plug into a USB port and connect your microphones to.

Depending on how good the quality of the sound should be, you can either get microphones for $50-100 or spend a fortune on them. Go to a local music store and ask around. If you are in the US, check out GuitarCenter. The issue of recording pianos is also often covered in magazines. There is tons of information on the web. Just off the top of the list:

https://members.aol.com/uniquenyc/key8.htm
https://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may99/articles/recpiano.htm

Have fun!

[torchygirl]

Thanks guys! 

Thierry13 - I'm not sure I'm quite ready for posting anything yet.  On the other hand, it could make everyone else feel better!

Silva, thank you for your tips and your recording.  It made me realize I'm going to have to get speakers for my laptop so I can listen to it again!  I could tell though that your playing is world's better than mine.  I will keep your generous offer of contacting you in mind.  Thank you.

Xvimbi, your posts are always so helpful.  Now I can go to guitarcenter for a digital piano for my cabin, and a mic, amp and speakers for my recording!  (I also am ordering "what every pianist needs to know about the body," which I believe is a due to you, yes?)

Take care,
Karen

[Torp]

Torchygirl,

Have a look at this thread where some discussion about recording took place.

https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/board,4.50.html

Also, I don't know what you're budget is so I'll throw some ideas out:

ProTools Mbox (~$450)  This provides a complete interface with your computer that allows you to record up to 4 tracks simultaneously.  Also comes with some effects and with a 32 track internal mixer.  A lot of bang for the buck.

Studio Projects B-1 Microphone (~100)  These microphones are phenonenal for the price.  A fairly warm sounding microphone that works well for recording instruments and vocals.

Boundary Microphones are also an option for recording the piano.  I haven't used them much so I can't recommend anything specific, but I've heard the results in various configurations.

Here are some more alternatives for places to buy some of the above mentioned gear.  I've found their prices and service to be better than Guitar Center.

www.sweetwater.com
www.8thstreet.com

Let me know if there is any other specific questions I can answer.

btw, xvimbi is right.  Recording the piano is very difficult.  And, if you ever catch the recording bug and decide you just have to have the ultimate in recorded sound, be aware that the recording bug will suck more money out of your bank account in less time than just about anything else I know.  Just a word of caution from someone who's broke 

Jef

[torchygirl]

Thank you Jef.  But building my cabin will suck more money out of me than recording ever will (started with uninsured but sweet and trying-to-be-helpful builder putting in foundation in wrong place).  1 year later, still not done (sorry, I was just up there today and have to vent).

Ahem, yes, well , back to recording...I don't think your pianoforum link is working quite right?   Would like to check it out.  Checked out Studio Projects b1, price is right about what I was expecting to pay (having spent most of my life being as frugal as possible, but now throwing out all those too cheap things that I never used or didn't last long).   Sweetwater looks like a good site to shop.  Thanks for your tips!

Karen
 

[Torp]

Not sure what happened with the other post's link   User error on my part I'm sure.  Try this, hopefully it should work.


https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7972.msg80347.html#msg80347

Never got a response to the post, so I have no idea if it was helpful or not.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Jef

[torchygirl]

Jef,

Thanks for taking the time to post this link.  I haven't tried your suggestions yet, but they're exactly what I need in terms of explicitness.

I have also been posting about getting a digital piano for my cabin, and just found out I can try out a Promega 3 locally.  So, if this sounds great, maybe I can go straight from there for the time being!  (I have been hoping that my gorgeous-sounding Seiler - I can't even express how much I love the tone - would help compensate for my not-so-great playing.  But if the General Music Promega 3 sounds good, it would probably be wise to start with it and save the microphone money for when I'm a bit better!!!! )

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with me (and, undoubtedly, many others).

Karen

[Torp]

Jef,

Thanks for taking the time to post this link.  I haven't tried your suggestions yet, but they're exactly what I need in terms of explicitness.

I have also been posting about getting a digital piano for my cabin, and just found out I can try out a Promega 3 locally.  So, if this sounds great, maybe I can go straight from there for the time being!  (I have been hoping that my gorgeous-sounding Seiler - I can't even express how much I love the tone - would help compensate for my not-so-great playing.  But if the General Music Promega 3 sounds good, it would probably be wise to start with it and save the microphone money for when I'm a bit better!!!! )

Thank you for taking the time to share your knowledge with me (and, undoubtedly, many others).

Karen

Yes, recording direct from a digital piano is certainly much easier than the microphone route.  I've done both.  Most of the time when I record it is with digital pianos or workstations.

Good luck (especially with the foundation issue you discussed elsewhere)

Jef

[Dazzer]

but its ... digital...  = midi  (correct me if i'm wrong) = ewwww

unless you'd like to invest in Garritan Personal Orchestra...  lol

[marialice]

I use my minidisc player, with a very bad microphone. Often I'm surprised about the results.

[thierry13]

but its ... digital... = midi (correct me if i'm wrong) = ewwww

unless you'd like to invest in Garritan Personal Orchestra... lol

Yeah, you're wrong You do CAN use midi to encode the sound from your digital piano, but you can, too, make REALLY good quality "live" records. A verry good pianist I know bought a good sound card for is computer and then sent me live records, in a .wav format I think (wich can be converted), that were of very good quality. But those sound cards are expensive, in general.

[ShiroKuro]

Silva, how did you make a sound-only recording on your digital camera? That link you provided sounds good,  I'm wondering if I can do that. I have a Sony Cybershot BTW.  I know that I can make a video of me playing w/ the cybershot, but since it includes video of course, the file gets pretty heavy.

Like others here, I'm interested in making recordings of myself, but I'd like to be able to put them straight into the computer and maybe send them through email.

Any advice?

[Torp]

but its ... digital...  = midi  (correct me if i'm wrong) = ewwww

I probably should have been more clear.  When I record direct from a digital piano, I record the analog outputs.  I usually then run that signal through different preamps depending on what type of sound I'm looking for in that particular recording.

Generally, the music to which I'm referring is not classical repertoire and the keyboards are part of a much larger tapestry of sound where having the perfect recording of a concert grand in a perfect acoustic space would be a waste of time and effort, not to mention the money.

If I were recording a concert pianist for a solo album, I would never (never say never) record from a digital piano (as if I could find a concert pianist who would play one.)  The subtlety and nuances of just about any acoustic piano are far superior to even the best digital piano.

However, having said all that, if you're on a budget and looking for ways to record yourself, a digital piano (whether recording the midi, the digital output, or the analog output) is a great option.  And, just to clarify, midi and digital output are not the same thing.  Midi is a computer code.  Digital output is a digital representation of an analog waveform that would need to be decoded by a digital-to-analog converter in order to hear it.  Often times, when you listen to midi files the midi code is being decoded by your soundcard in your computer.  The sound quality you get out of that is a combination of the midi coding (usually pretty basic), your sound card (pretty cheap in most computers with very basic DA conversion and subsequent analog sound), and your computer speakers (again not exactly of the highest quality).  If you were to run exceptional midi code through a great sound module into a great DA convertor into a great sound system, you'd be amazed at the quality.

Enough rambling for today....

Jef

[torchygirl]

Jef, Jef, Jef, Jef....uh, uh,uh, please don't go away yet!! I like your "ramblings."  I just need a little more of them if you've got the time.

So, I get a digital piano which puts out it's little 1's and 0's or whatever discrete signal it uses.  Then the MIDI works with the sound card to regenerate the analog signal, yes?  You seem so knowledgable about this, may I impose on you a bit further?

What is (a?) MIDI (a least a bit more precisely) and what does a sound card do with it?   Is it that the sound card is the D/A converter? What is the difference between direct digital and MIDI (digital?) in quality?   Or, maybe, why do they both exist?  I wonder how a digital piano generates a signal...does it need a D/A converter to go to analog, or does it work with analog signals?

Also, are there other options that I could use rather than that (evidently) ewwwwy MIDI and sound card I have on my computer  ?  Obviously I'm not going to go out and buy a studio, but it might help me understand the process better if I knew similar devices.

Thanks for any elaboration you care to give...feel free to offer as much or little as you like (I'm kind of a nerd )  I'm really beat ('tis exactly midnight here)...hope this makes sense and isn't just, well, ramblings!

Karen

[drumstix576]

In the most basic sense, MIDI is a table of values.  When you record a MIDI file, you are actually copying the notes themselves--not just the sound they make.  Each time you, say, hit a key on your digital piano, the note is saved in the MIDI file with characteristics such as duration, velocity, pitch, and so on.  It's kinda like the difference between scribbling on a piece of paper and plotting points out on a graph.  When you record analog audio, you're recording what you hear; with MIDI, you're recording what you play...if that makes any sense at all.

[torchygirl]

DS-

Thank you for your response.  It makes total sense.  Does digital not do this?

Karen

[drumstix576]

Sorry, I don't know too much about digital recording, except that it still involves the sounds that come out of the instrument instead of the notes that are played...I'll definitely be watching this thread to find out, though (hint hint to all knowledgeable fellow geeks out there) 

Hmm...some quick searching on Google turned up this article from HowStuffWorks about the differences between digital and analog recording:  https://electronics.howstuffworks.com/analog-digital.htm.  Let me know if that helps

[Torp]

I haven't forgot about this post...just been buried at work this last week.  And I had a movie project to get out this weekend.

Drumstix has it basically correct.  However, let's expand just a little.  MIDI stands for Musical Instrument Digital Interface.  It was/is a standard that was adopted by the music industry for controlling various devices such as sound cards or synthesizers.  MIDI is a set of instructions that tells a piece of equipment or software to do something.  At a bare minimum, MIDI includes values for a note's pitch, length, and volume.

In other words, it tells your sound card (or whatever else it's talking to) to play middle C for the duration of a quarter note at some volume level.  When you strike/play a key on a digital piano you're not really playing a piano (I know, big surprise).  What you are doing is playing a user interface with a computer.  The user interface codifies your motions, i.e. playing middle C for the duration of a quarter note at a forte volume, into a code that your computer/soundcard can understand.  This code is MIDI.  It codifies every aspect of your performance it is capable of codifying, the velocity at which you strike the keys, the duration of the note, what note you played, whether you applied aftertouch to the note, whether you applied a sustain or other pedal, whether you used some sort of modulation feature on your keyboard.  Whatever, it codifies everything that happens while you interaction with it.

The above-mentioned codification (performance) can be recorded, not the notes (we'll get to that) but the actual MIDI code that was created when you played.  This MIDI code can be manipulated in various ways (we'll get to that too, but maybe not today).  Now, with MIDI code you can play anything that will interpret that code.  This is how you can change the "Voices" on your piano.  For example, you sat down to play the "piano" (actually this is just the voice selected on your soundcard) and you recorded the MIDI code of your performance.  Now you decide to play back the performance but you want to hear what it would sound like as a guitar.  You simply switch the voice selection on your keyboard or computer and you listen to it as a guitar.

If you're with me so far then you should understand that the recording of MIDI code is NOT an audio recording; it is a recording of what is essentially a computer language.  Now that we have this computer language we can use it to tell anything that understands that language to do something.  This is very useful.  This allows us to use code that was created on one piece of equipment and use it on a completely different piece of equipment.  Here's where we get to the audio portion this equation.

OK, we now have this wonderful MIDI code that we created.  What does it sound like?  Actually, MIDI code doesn't make a sound.  It tells other things to make sounds.  What are these other things?  Could be your computer, your digital keyboard, your analog keyboard (If you have diskclavier.  I'm not 100% a diskclavier uses MIDI but the idea would be similar), your MIDI guitar, your notation software, etc.

Let's look for a minute at the basics of sound reproduction.  Sound is analog.  Historically, the way we recorded sound was analog.  Ultimately, all sound reproduction is analog, but we'll get to that.  So, let's say you want to record your piano, your acoustic piano.  You set up a microphone that runs to a tape deck.  You hit record and start playing.  What happens?

Well, the hammer hits the string.  This starts the string vibrating.  This vibration is transferred to the air.  The vibration of the air is transferred to the transducer in the microphone which, through its vibration, induces an electrical current that is transferred down the mic cable to the tape deck.  The tape translates this electrical signal into a magnetic signal and magnatizes the tape accordingly.  When you play back the tape it runs the exact reverse process except that you replace the microphone with a speaker of some sort.  This is the very basics of analog recording.

What happens when we want to record something digitally?  Well, pretty much exactly the same things.  Except, where we had a tape deck and translated electrical signals to magnetic signals we now translate electrical signals to digital signals through a process called analog to digital conversion.  The first major pieces of digital recording equipment in studios were actually DATs, or Digital Audio Tapes.  Direct recording to hard drives has really only come about in the last 3-5 years.

So, we should have the basics of analog and digital recording down.  Fundamentally they're about the same.

Now, let's say you record a note on the piano and want to play it back on command.  In other words, you want to record middle C onto your tape deck and have the ability to play back that recording at some other time.  How would you do this?  Well, one of the earliest examples of this was/is an instrument called a mellotron.  A mellotron essentially consists of a keyboard where each key is connected to a tape deck.  When you hit a key, it plays the recording on the tape.  This was really an example of one of the world's first samplers.

Along comes the digital world. (We're taking a lot of short cuts by the way)  Now, we do the same process as above and we record the individual notes of a piano using the digital method described above.  Now when we play our digital keyboards we're essentially playing a recording of some other piano.  These individual recorded sounds are called samples.  Now, remember in our example about recording and the subsequent playback.  The playback HAS to come through some sort of speaker in order for us to hear it.

SO, here's where some confusion can come into play.  We have a digital sample in our keyboard.  We hit a note on our keyboard that sends MIDI code to our soundcard that tells it what note to play.  The soundcard plays the appropriate digital sample and THEN.....drum roll please.....3 things potentially happen.

1)  The digital signal is converted into an analog signal (an electrical signal) which is routed to a small amplier that drives a pair of headphones and you revel in the bliss of your magnificent playing while the rest of the world is oblivious to your virtuosic meanderings.

2) The digital signal is converted into an analog signal (again an electrical signal) which is routed to a the cable outputs and then subsequently routed to any variety of other pieces of equipment.  For example, you could take these cable outputs, which are analog remember, and route them to an analog tape recorder.  You could also route them to a digital tape recorder or hard disk recorder, BUT, and analog to digital conversion would need to take place for the digital recording to occur.

3) It was very early discovered that running a signal through multiple analog to digital (AD) and digital to analog (DA) conversion processes degraded the final result.  So, someone figured out that the sample in the soundcard was already digital and it would be possible to take a digital output from the soundcard and run directly to a digital input on a recorder and thus bypass the DA and AD conversion process mentioned in 2 above.

Here's where we are at this point, I think.....

MIDI and digital recording are not the same thing
Digital and analog recording are essentially the same thing (just different ways to skin the same cat)
When you play a digital piano you're really creating computer code that tells a computer to do something
This computer code can be used for and with various different pieces of music equipment.

I think that's all I have for now....

Hope this helps.

Jef

[torchygirl]

In other words, it tells your sound card (or whatever else it's talking to) to play middle C for the duration of a quarter note at some volume level. 

So it's a function of the music.  It maybe puts out some sort of vector of values representing the notes that are being played and some variabilties of instrument settings.  I'm guessing this isn't a periodic sampling, but started by changes in setting to the keyboard (including pressing and releasing a key)?

If you're with me so far then you should understand that the recording of MIDI code is NOT an audio recording; it is a recording of what is essentially a computer language. 

Think I am. 

Analog recording is a continuous copy of the music translated into some other medium.
Digital recording is a discrete sampling (approximating continuity) of the music translated into some other medium.
MIDI is not a sampling.  It's a representation of the music in more of a kind of meta-version.

SO, here's where some confusion can come into play.  We have a digital sample in our keyboard.  We hit a note on our keyboard that sends MIDI code to our soundcard that tells it what note to play. 

Then all digital keyboards use midi as the method to produce sound because you're essentially playing a computer?

The soundcard plays the appropriate digital sample and THEN.....drum roll please.....3 things potentially happen.

So essentially the MIDI code is always converted to a standard digital sampling.  So it goes from a description of the sound f(pitch, tone, note length, etc.) generated by a change in setting on the computer to a time-valued representation  Is that it?  So the sound card puts out every msec (or whatever a sampling rate is) the data values representing what is being produced right then (it's no longer a quarter note with pedal being specified, but the volume values of all the different resultant notes being played at that sampling msec).  Is this right?  Am I making sense?

Excellent article, Jef.  Thank you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge in a logical presentation (it's not just having the knowledge, but formatting it so someone who doesn't have it can get it, right?) Is this your business?

Karen

[Torp]

.... but started by changes in setting to the keyboard (including pressing and releasing a key)?

This is correct.  MIDI simply translates the actions you perform on the instrument into a coded form of that action.  That code is then interpretted by some sort of MIDI decoding device, like a sound card or notation software.
 

Think I am. 

Sounds like you are.

It's a representation of the music in more of a kind of meta-version.

Not sure what you mean by meta-version, but your comments show me you've got the concepts.
 

Then all digital keyboards use midi as the method to produce sound because you're essentially playing a computer?

Not sure if they "all" do or not.  I'm sure there are some keyboards that use some other way to communicate with its soundcard.  MIDI is the standard though.

So essentially the MIDI code is always converted to a standard digital sampling.

Not necessarily.  Let's suppose for a minute that a Yamaha Diskclavier uses MIDI. (I say suppose because I'm not sure what coding it actually does use.)  When a diskclavier plays a prerecorded piece of music it actually translates the MIDI code into a mechanical action on the piano, and the piano action plays the music.  MIDI itself is not translated or converted into anything else.  MIDI simply provides instructions that are interpretted by whatever is recieving the instructions.

So the sound card puts out every msec (or whatever a sampling rate is) the data values representing what is being produced right then (it's no longer a quarter note with pedal being specified, but the volume values of all the different resultant notes being played at that sampling msec).  Is this right?  Am I making sense?

Sound cards and/or sound-generating devices can use different ways to produce sound.  One way is via a digital sample, another way is through oscillators, like a sine-wave generator for example.  The reason I bring this up is to simply show from a different perspectice that MIDI is not converted necessarily to digital music.  When a piece of equipment receives the MIDI code it follows the instructions to the best of its own internal capabilities.  Let's say that we have a sound card that produces sound via complex, state-of-the-art digital samples.  And, let's say we have a sound card that reproduces sound via very simple wave generation, like a sine wave generator.  If we send MIDI code to each of these sound cards telling them to play Middle C we will hear very different results.  In the first case, we will hear the playback of a prerecorded digital sample of a real piano.  If the sampling has been done well, what we hear ought to be a fairly convincing sound.  In the second example, we will hear a sound wave that is generated by an oscillator that corresponds to the pitch known as Middle C.  Same code, different sound.

Excellent article, Jef.  Thank you so much for taking the time to share your knowledge in a logical presentation (it's not just having the knowledge, but formatting it so someone who doesn't have it can get it, right?) Is this your business?

You're welcome.  No, it is not my business.  I have simply been interested in recording music for a long time.  Knowledge of MIDI and other recording information is simply a byproduct of my experience in a recording studio.  I wish I knew more....

Jef

[possom46]

I use my minidisc player, with a very bad microphone. Often I'm surprised about the results.

I'm in the process of buying one a minidisc player. Should be useful for hearing myself  and also, as a teacher, getting my pupils to make their own CD's for christmas presents 

[sleepingcats]

How about either of these products??  They both have internal microphones, one is super portable and the other records onto CDs. I've ordered the Edirol to try out but it's backordered right now. Has anyone tried either of these?

https://www.portlandmusiccompany.com/r1.html

https://www.portlandmusiccompany.com/cd2.html