Sandor - 'Thrust' technique

[Stevo]

I'm currently reading Gyorgy Sandor's 'On Piano Playing', which I find to be very interesting - save for chapter eight, 'Thrust', which I find vague and hard to understand. I have followed Sandor's instructions on octave and chord playing using a quick, downward motion onto the keys but still feel tension building in my hand and forearm.

I have reread this chapter numerous times and still cannot pinpoint what it is I am doing incorrectly. If someone who has read this wonderful book would be so kind to perhaps explain in further detail the way this motion should be executed properly, I would be greatly appreciative.

[SDL]

Hi,
Ive read this book and think its a great book.  Thrust is something I found I did naturally and then I read Sandor's book and associated what I was doing with it being called "Thrust".  (I called it "Push"  )
Ill try to explain it a little:

Imagine you had you hand on the table just resting as you were seated in a chair.  Then all of a sudden you realised you had to be somewhere else in a hurry.  You would all of a sudden push off the table with you hand in a sporadic movement where momentarily all your weight was chanelled.  Now, imagine your hand is on the keyboard and you have the notes of a chord covered.  You are going to push down which in turn throws you back a little but you dont get up from your seat.  So what happens is that it pushes you back in your seat.  This is a very crude description because Im really describing a sfz/accented type push.  But it can be done as soft as you want by applying slower movement.  Its nothing to do with weight as you can apply the same weight slowly as you do fast.  Its more the speed at which you apply the "push". 

I would only use "thrust" now if there was a really "stretchy" passage which would need careful application in order to play all the notes correctly with a good tone.  For example I would use "thrust" in the opening of Beethoven Op110.  Or Prokofiev Sonata no 1 Opening chord maybe free fall as optional.  Free fall is an energy saver in most rapid passages but there are examples in Sandor's book.

[will]

Imagine you had you hand on the table just resting as you were seated in a chair.  Then all of a sudden you realised you had to be somewhere else in a hurry.  You would all of a sudden push off the table with you hand in a sporadic movement where momentarily all your weight was chanelled.  Now, imagine your hand is on the keyboard and you have the notes of a chord covered.  You are going to push down which in turn throws you back a little but you dont get up from your seat.  So what happens is that it pushes you back in your seat.  This is a very crude description because Im really describing a sfz/accented type push.

Crude description? From memory your description if far better than Sandor's. Well done, thanks for that.

[Stevo]

I agree - thankyou very much

[SDL]

You're welcome!  Glad to be of help 

[maxy]

"thrust" technique is required for a good performance...   
oooooooh yes!

[SDL]

Actually I used to used loads of thrust (!) but I use it less and more free fall in alot of places now because it saves on energy in rapid succession of chords.  Too much thrust leads to tired muscles! Free Fall need not be from a high place dont forget... also gives good tone when used correctly.

[Jacey1973]

I kind of understand "thrust" technique. But i think it's something i've always done naturally, i only started reading books on technique recently.

I found a really interesting, easy to comprehend book by Boris Berman called "Notes from the pianist's bench". I would really recommend it to fellow students.

Any other good books around? I've seen a few mentioned on here - will try and get hold of this Gyorgy Sandor book, it doesn't appear to be in my music library though. I am hoping to do some piano teaching in the near future so would appreciate any decent books on piano teaching!

[Ben]

Yeah, Sandor's book is pretty neat but I agree that it's a little hazy, especially with regards to staccato and thrust. An accompanying video would have been great.

[Ben]

I hate to be a bother here, but could anyone elaborate on the staccato technique?

Anything helpful would be great.

[gkatele]

Interesting that this thread on "thrust" come up now. I was just listening to some lectures on the Sonatas of Beethoven (strongly recommended - go to the Teaching Company www.teach12.com). The lecturer comments that Beethoven's "lighter" sonatas require a very delicate touch, and he says that playing the piano is not, contrary to what most think, and "up and down" motion; rather an "in and out" on the keys.

I've not really paid attention to this in my own (poor) playing - yet. But I shall.


George

[tds]

The lecturer comments that Beethoven's "lighter" sonatas require a very delicate touch, ....

George

that is why i love kempff. tds

[gkatele]

that is why i love kempff.

I may be wrong (and I probably am), but I've always felt that Emil Gilels had a light touch when it came to Beethoven. Didn't seem to have the "stodginess" of someone like Brendel. Light, perfect and airy. Things that I can NEVER accomplish on my crappy old Baldwin piano!

No?

George

[lostinidlewonder]

I hate to be a bother here, but could anyone elaborate on the staccato technique?

Anything helpful would be great.

There are three parts to the staccato touch.
1) Your finger should touch the note before playing it
2) The finger pushes off from the note
3) The finger returns to touch the keyboard again.

Some people say there is stacatto touch without the initial step, that is like poking at the notes. That kills your hand, and only is done if unavoidable, like rapidly repeating chords that are staccato.

To increase the volume of the staccato or sharpness of its quality the 2nd part has to be increased in strength. That comes from the downward thrust of the hand pushing the already touched note down. Not from above, striking the note. Most control from the staccato is achived from this anything else is not as controlling.

[Ben]

Great, thanks. This works the same with octaves as well?

[Jacey1973]

...he says that playing the piano is not, contrary to what most think, and "up and down" motion; rather an "in and out" on the keys.

Boris Berman also talks about playing "in and out" on the keys. There's quite alot about that in the technique chapter (or it might be the chapter on sound and touch) in a very interesting book i mentioned in my earlier post: "Notes from the pianist's bench".