Question on Breaking Down Pieces

[ryno200sx]

I have been trying to break pieces down and taclke them using the 7x20 rule. The problem is I don't feel I am retaining enough information from day to day. I know it has been said that in this case I should simply cut the selected section in half, but in this case the result would be a measly 2 bars. I feel I should be able to do more.

Bernhard wrote:

Each of these sessions should take 20 minutes at the most to learn (if not you will need to break them further). But assume it does.
So on day 1, you start practice session 1: bars 5 – 6. At the end of the session you should be playing these two bars like a pro. (How do you do that? It is not simply repeating the 2 bars for 20 minutes, you know. There are all sorts of approaches and tricks – but it just will take to long to go through all that). Anyway, during these 20 minutes you will do a number of things that will result in you totally learning these two bars.

My question is what are these "approaches and tricks" referred to here? What else can be done to help master the section I am working on for a particular session?

Thanks,
Ryan

[abell88]

There are other posts where Bernhard says you may only learn 2 notes (not bars!) in a practice session...which is better, to struggle with four bars and be frustrated, or to humbly do two bars, and make progress? I know it's hard to imagine that something as small as four bars could be "too much", but possibly it is.

On the other hand, what strategies are you using so far? HS practice, using different articulations, over-exaggerated motions in slow-mo practice, use dotted rhythms for running passages, closed-eyes, singing one hand while playing the other...why don't you tell us more specifically what you've tried and the results you've gotten, then (hopefully) someone will be able to give you specific help. 

Alice

[richard w]

Ryan, a context would help us provide you with the most help, such as what piece you are working on and what your recent accomplishments have been. But, that you say you are not 'retaining enough information' implies that the difficulty is with memorising the music rather than mastering the technique. But if technique is your problem, bear in mind that it can take time for your hand to adopt the correct movements to execute a passage. Depending on your ability and the passage in question this could vary from a couple of days up to several months, but if the latter is the case the piece would probably be to advanced for you.

Now, in terms of straightforward memorisation using the 7/20 method. Well, in my experience of using it (a few months now!) I would advise you not to take it too literally. Remember that the way to learn something is to learn it, forget it and learn it again (etc). But best results can be had by revisiting something before you have completely forgotten it. This is why it is important to practise every day, whilst what you have learnt is still fresh in your mind. Taking this a step further, I tend to use a 7/3,3,3,3,3 version of the 7/20 method, where I have a go at something, then move on, then go back to it.

As an example,  I may take a 16-bar segment, HS at first. I will look at the first bar until I feel I know it. This may well be after only 3 minutes. To go on for another 17 minutes will simply be time wasted. If it works perfectly and with confidence after 3 by definition it can't be any better after another 17. So I look at the next bar for 3 minutes. Then I will return to the first bar. It may well be that during the intervening 3 minutes of neglect, the first bar is now not so secure. So, another 2 or 3 minutes will help to get it back. Basically I will carry on in this way, but I will also start stringing things together as soon as I have two or three reliable bars. So, whilst I am working on getting 16 individual bars up to scratch, I will also be getting 8 pairs of bars up to scratch, and 4 groups of 4 bars up to scratch, etc.... Oh, and I will be switching hands too, typically prompted by either my first hand getting tired, or my mind getting fatigued by the material it must learn for the first hand.

The following day, I will verify that I can still play what I achieved the day before, and will repeat as necessary to return to this standard, but I typically find I can put hands together in day two or three, again using the same kind of breaking down.

You will need to adapt this to your requirements, but I stress that you should use 7/20 as a point of departure and not as a rule. Remember that there is no formula that you can apply to turn yourself into a virtuoso - you have to be able to adapt!

I hope that helps. It gives you an idea of my take on the 7/20, at least.



Richard.

[ryno200sx]

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

Abell wrote:

HS practice, using different articulations, over-exaggerated motions in slow-mo practice, use dotted rhythms for running passages, closed-eyes, singing one hand while playing the other

This is precisely the type of suggestions I'm looking for!!! Thank you! I will definitely try them out.

Richard W wrote:

Ryan, a context would help us provide you with the most help, such as what piece you are working on and what your recent accomplishments have been.

I have been playing for about a year. I can play Moonlight Sonata. I did not cite a specific piece because it seems to apply to every piece I work on and they are all early level. I am trying to build my repetory using the suggestions I have found here at the forum regarding high-quality music that is at beginner level. The issue is not really technique, but remembering the passage I worked on the day before along with each of the other passages I worked on the previous day as the hand movements are not terribly difficult so far.

I like the way you approach it by doing many shorter sessions to reinforce the memory. I will try to implement that.

Thanks,
Ryan

[ShiroKuro]

Some other methods that can help you retain more of what you learn each day involve what you do at the end of each practice session.

Let's say in one session, you work on a section, however many bars it is. When you're done, before you leave the piano or go on to the next thing, you should take a minute to look at what you've just worked on (imagine you're imprinting it in your head.) Let the passage run through your head. Esp if it's at a higher tempo, and esp if you've been working on getting it up to speed, play through it one last time, very slowly.  If you're doing something HT, play through it HS before putting it away. These sorts of things help you to "imprint" that section on your brain and make it more likely that it will sink in over night and while you're away from the piano.

Now, let's say you're going to work on another session. Before you do that, get up, walk around the room or go into another room and come back. It doesn't matter really, but just give yourself a little break. I have found that doing this takes away some of the frenzy I might accidently create while practicing. I love to play more than anything in  the world, and if I don't catch myself I could just sit at the piano forever, never getting up or a taking a rest. But I think this is not only bad for the body (back, shoulders, wrists etc) it also is stressful on the brain. Give your brain a chance to process what it just did, before you move on to the next thing.  Also of course, remember that you need to "sleep on it."

Now it's the next day. You take out the score and are ready to start. Don't just jump right in. Look at what you did yesterday. I have gotten into the habit of having a piece of paper along with each score that I write notes on about what I practiced, what I should do the next day etc, so I look over that and it really is a memory-jogger. Think about what you're going to do, look through the section through to the end of it (if it's two notes, it's two notes, if it's 6 bars, look through 6 bars) And then, after you've done this (it hardly takes a minute), start to play.

These things should all help you retain more from the previous day's practice. But here comes the final thing that I learned from both Chang and Bernhard. If you start to play and it feels like you have literally lost all of the progress you made yesterday, don't fret about it. If you think "oh, I forgot everything! this is not working! I am a terrible pianist!"  all you're doing is putting a negative mode onto yourself which will just be a detriment, you'll feel pressured and defeated before you even start. 

The better way to react if you find you've forgotten everything is to say to yourself: "well, that's how it works. I remember something, forget it and then remember it again. this is like a three-step process of how the brain learns. nothing wrong, I'm just at step two right now."  If you think of it this way, forgetting then seems like a necessary phase, rather than a cause for frustration, you can actually congratulate yourself: "I learned something, and now I've forgotten it. I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing."  If you approach it with this attitude, re-remembering it (re-learning it) will a snap.

My two yen, for what they're worth (108 to the $ I believe)

[ryno200sx]

Thanks for the reply! I appreciate it and will implement these tactics into my practice routine to see how they work for me.

I was reading in another post how Chang explained that learning the piano is non-linear and that the more you learn, the faster you learn. The more you memorize, the faster you memorize, etc. I have just started to employ these practice techniques so no doubt it will get better as time goes on and I become more adept at planning my practice sessions and then executing my plan.

Thanks,
Ryan

[dorfmouse]

Slower is faster!

If you start to play and it feels like you have literally lost all of the progress you made yesterday, don't fret about it. If you think "oh, I forgot everything! this is not working! I am a terrible pianist!"  all you're doing is putting a negative mode onto yourself which will just be a detriment, you'll feel pressured and defeated before you even start. 

The better way to react if you find you've forgotten everything is to say to yourself: "well, that's how it works. I remember something, forget it and then remember it again. this is like a three-step process of how the brain learns. nothing wrong, I'm just at step two right now."  If you think of it this way, forgetting then seems like a necessary phase, rather than a cause for frustration, you can actually congratulate yourself: "I learned something, and now I've forgotten it. I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing."  If you approach it with this attitude, re-remembering it (re-learning it) will a snap.

This is SO right in my (very recently learned) experience.  If a 2 bar/ 1 bar/ 2 note memory chunk is what your brain copes with , so be it! There is no how much you "should" be able to learn. Bernhard, in one of his posts, I seem to remember, wrote about the number of sessions people need to ingrain each chunk before they can just go to the piano and play that chunk. I think there was a range of something like 1-7 days (?) I certainly take at least 3 goes.  I had previously assumed that I would never memorise because I literally didn't remember from one day to the next, practising for example just the first line over and over. The 7/20 guideline has transformed this. But it is a guideline, not set in stone as Richard says.  If your 1 or 2 bars is ticking over nicely after ten minutes there 's nothing to stop you from moving on to the next 2, as long as you treat them as a separate learning chunk (not forgetting the overlap note) and don't try to jump the gun and join them prematurely. And so on to the next couple of bars. And those little breaks in between work very well for me plus the mental reviewing that ShiroKuro talks about. Also I've found that if I'm disciplined about the procedure, after the first few days the learning time telescopes down, maybe as one becomes used to the style and pattern of the piece, I'm not quite sure.

I can now look at a few pieces I've learned in this way and compare them to a couple of others  in which I became impatient to play and cut corners or fell into old "eyes -glued -to -the- score" habits. The former are so much more secure. An unexpected spinoff is that during my lesson I can pay much more attention to my teacher's movements  as I can play along while watching him on the second piano, kind of catching his movements, or immediately imitate  without the score interfering.

Funnily enough, I also see the score much more clearly now in my mind's eye, even though I spend much less time actually looking at it.  Maybe it's called paying attention ...