chord cadences with scales

[robertp]

Subject first, then the context.

I've been asked, after playing my scales (HT obviously) to finish with chord cadences. For example: I, IV64, I, V6, I with bass I, IV, V, V, I. There are two others, but you get the idea. Only one other teacher over the years has asked me to do that, a teacher with whom I didn't last very long (although the reason was not cadences, although they may have been a contributing factor).

I'm not sure about the utility of this. When I queried my teacher, the response was "will help your sight reading, will enable you to play chords in pieces more fluently." Maybe so, although the last time I did it I didn't find any obvious payoff.

Context
I'm not a beginner. Had my first lesson at 7, then various runs of them over the years. Was blessed with several good teachers, and one truly superior teacher. No chord cadences from any of them.  Where I am is along the lines of Beethoven 1st concerto, Brahms Op. 79 (both),  Mozart Sopnata K. 332 (and how could I forget School of Velocity?  ).

At my last lesson, my teacher spent 20 minutes (of an hour) on the cadences. Several pieces didn't get heard as the result.

I need some OpEd for or against these cadences -- I'm trying to decide whether this teacher is of the same ilk as the disastrous one I had when cadences last arose.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[BoliverAllmon]

some teachers feel that this helps you get the feeling of grapping chords at a rapid pace. It doesn't mean she is a bad teacher necessarily.

[whynot]

Well, it is good to be fluent in the basic chords of every key.  That particular exercise isn't how I go about this, but the general idea is an important one.  If it's easy for you and you resent spending lesson time on something you already know, just do it brilliantly for a couple of lessons and the teacher will catch on that you don't need check-ups on this.  If it's hard for you, then it would be a good thing to learn because they ARE the basic chords of every key.  You can learn it very quickly and get him/her off your back.  A good teacher will help with both long- and short-term goals and skills.  This exercise might have a payoff that you won't see for a while.  But hopefully the teacher is also giving you help that you can better perceive right away, as it's more motivating when we see ourselves getting better.  I wouldn't give up on a teacher over one exercise I thought was pointless, but maybe the fact that it bothers you so much indicates that there are other things about your lessons that aren't satisfying?...

[robertp]

Thanks to the both of your for your thoughts!

You're both right, and perhaps I wrote amiss, that giving up on someone over one matter -- well, that's a litmus test. Fine for the science of chemistry, not so fine for human relations and piano playing.

whynot, you divined aright. It's part of a larger picture. Briefly. I had B major and G# minor for the last lesson. Didn't like my rt. hand fingering (fair enough), and wanted the left hand differently, one note and not chord, although the scribble in my notebook which assigned this gave no hint (but also fair enough). But -- 25 minutes of an hour lesson got chewed up over just that. We never got to the Bach fugue I was doing, nor the MacDowell piece I was finishing, nor Brahms 79.2. Nor to Czerny on which I'd come in by saying I needed help with wrist/arm tightness at a particular point in the passage work (Op. 299) -- and I've been essentially left on my own with C. anyhow.

Both your points on the value of the cadences are well taken. But almost half a lesson on it? Even if it doesn't repeat and I'm able to get this monkey off my back...who knows what's next? Or am I being overly harsh?

[sonatainfsharp]

These are the reasons I give my students:

Basic knowledge of "primary chords" in any key.

Seamless pedaling technique.

Voicing each note of the chord in perfect control.

Because most colleges require you to do this either at your undergrad audition (performance-based schools), or after your second year (education-based schools).

Lastly, 'cause I want my 14 year olds to know when it is E# and not F!!!

[whynot]

Well, 25 minutes on two scales that are actually the same, thus 25 minutes on one scale, seems like a long time.  Evidently it seems so to you, too!  Could you expand a little on what happens in your lessons?  Are the scales problematic for you right now?  Was this time spent learning/correcting the scale notes or fingerings, or was it more general work: a certain sound that was wanted or hand position being adjusted etc?  I'm curious because you're playing difficult repertoire that really requires all the scales to be well in place, so if you're having to change fingerings and have the scales checked in the lessons, maybe your teacher is trying to shore up that part of your technique so you can go blasting ahead (obviously you are doing a lot of other things well, maybe there's just a missing piece at the moment?).  Please forgive me if this is not your situation, it's difficult to tell where people are at just by reading here.  But if this is the case, it would be a real investment to make a big push now on this aspect of playing.  The teacher certainly may be a nut, or a time waster, or a real blessing in disguise (deeply undercover, to be sure).  Or all of these.  Anyway.... hoping the best for you.               

[robertp]

Thanks for your further, whynot! I still wrote a bit too briefly -- it will seem worse with an expansion. Much worse (I think).

Those two scales are no issue -- even Teacher thinks they sound very good, and I will say Teacher has an excellent ear (I don't say that lightly). Fingering, sound, evenness, speed (144 HT is quite easy). No -- that 25 minutes was entirely on the cadences and their fingering. I had started by playing the two scales, w/o problem or issue -- Teacher moved immediately to the...cadences.

I'm certainly not disputing that cadences aren't worth knowing, and knowing how to play well. But when almost half a lesson is taken up with them with other matters not attended to, I get nervous. Especially because I've seen tendencies to this in previous lessons (although in fairness, this is only a month with this Teacher). Especially when you have a problem part of a piece all fixed (or so you think) and ready for praise and/or further critique...kind of a letdown when you never get to it.

[whynot]

Wow, that time was all on those few chords?  And fingerings?  There aren't that many ways to finger chords.  I mean, if the thumb and pinky or fourth are on the outer notes, not that many options left for the middle.  It does seem odd.  Maybe you could finesse a deferral on that stuff for a few lessons, get to some repertoire, then it would be more clear whether this person is going to be helpful to you.   What if you asked at your next lesson, "Could we start with _____ today?   I have questions about it and I really want to know what you think."  That's not accusatory, and it shows that you're prepared.  Then if s/he says to start with the cadences, you can say (honestly) that you're working on them every day "because they're so important," then tactfully remind her/him that "we" didn't get to this piece the last three weeks, and you really need some help on it.  If you still get outright refusal to hear any music, hmm...

I'm getting rather fascinated with this situation.  I wish I could eavesdrop on the lesson!  Good luck, keep up the reports if you have time-- it's interesting.   
     

[robertp]

My sentiments exactly, whynot! There just aren't that many permutations, and I was amazed at the time sink. Every teacher is entitled to the occasional freebie, of course. But it's early days, still first impressions, so maybe this is looming larger than it ought. That is, every so often I hear this nagging little voice saying "what time sink will he choose next?" That's unfair, of course but, I think, a bit understandable in context.

It's had a bad effect on my practicing. First because unlearning the fingerings I had been using and learning the new ones chews up time. Second, because it's hard to avoid feeling "why should I practice up piece X when he's going to want to hear...cadences or his latest time-waster du jour?" Also a bit unfair, but also a bit understandable.

Part of the problem is that I'm in the teaching line, although not an area even remotely related to music. But I might have thought more effective would be to say "work on these. I'd like to hear them in a month, sooner if you feel ready or have problems."

Your suggestion is indeed well-taken! If I can avoid that just-mentioned feeling. Going at it positively, letting repertoire swamp cadences  . I'll try it. And provide updates -- you've been so helpful that I really owe you!

Besides, I see a higher number of people have been viewing this little drama than I might have guessed. May be of some help to them.

[whynot]

How's it going?

[robertp]

Have had one since the discussion, whynot, and I think there may be progress.  I went at it in a slightly unorthodox way....

1.  I emailed that I wanted to take a chunk of lesson time talking about meeting expectations. I.e. keep it non-adversarial and, rather, make it enquiring and exploratory.

2. I started the Truth And Soul by analogy, from when I went from being an undergrad to a grad student to...a professor (in a non-music field: classical studies).  Undergrad: you always know what you're doing: something to read, a Latin paradigm to review, syntax studies to review and new ones to start. Always clear what you should be doing and for how long. Continues a bit in grad school, but then...panic. Nobody's telling you when you should review grammer and syntax, or how much time to spend understanding a text. You can always get help from your teachers, but it's more a consultation rather than "do this for fifteen minutes each day" sort of thing. Finally I realized that I was closer to being *them* than a student. They saw I knew what to do, and unless I had a problem (identified by them or me).
You see the analogy? A fair amount of time advancing along the piano goes the same way.  A teacher will say, 15 minutes on scales, half-hour on piece X, drop piece Y for the moment, but stay with piece Z for two more weeks.

3. After laying this out, I put it thus (paraphrased).  "It may be that I'm having the same experience as I had when a grad student. That your beginning students get a lot of very precise instructions, but less with advancement as you turn to things your students can't work out for themselves. OR, it may be that you globally favor a less hands-on approach from the beginning. WHICH is it?"

4. He replied that it was the former. Yes, he had identified a point or two on my scales which needed work (for example, how I ended each one), but it was pretty clear I knew how to practice them, so whatever I was doing was working. The cadences were new, so he took more time with them. That he is indeed very hands-on with beginning and intermediate students.

5. This all took about 45 minutes, and we used the balance of the time on some MacDowell passagework -- I've always said he had a superior ear, and certainly there  were many helpful comments. But, for example, when he wanted a couple of bars less legato, he didn't say how to make them less legato, since he assumed, rightly, that I would know.

6. Tomorrow's lesson #2 ex my posting here. Brahms Op. 79, which I've just started with him. We'll see what happens, and I'll update.

Obviously, if you see anything here which seems either very right or very wrong, do tell me. Your feedback has been quite invaluable!

[Derek]

I'd take it a bit further and play circle of fifths and thirds progressions in all keys (for example).  Not all music just uses the I, IV and V chords....there is a lot of music that uses all of the other chords in the scale. It does help you ---- but try to make it more fun for yourself. try to make up melodies or riffs that use those chords.

[whynot]

Wow, you teach classics?  Cool.  I think it's very classy (no pun) how you shaped your conversation with your teacher.  Much better than I would have done.  Hopefully this will work out, then.  When you're a good teacher yourself, it's hard to be patient with inefficient teaching!  Especially when you know yourself and how you learn, then you want to just get to it.  I take lessons at various things, and overall I think my teachers are very good... but it's common for them to balance the time and instruction differently from what I would ask for.  And they tend to give what I sense are their usual explanations that work for most people but that might not be clear for me.  In my case, these are friends who are really, really good at the actual whatever-it-is, so I put more attention on how they're doing it than on how they say to do it.  This isn't advice, because I see that your situation is different.  Just a sympathetic word from a fellow teacher-learner (that's probably a lot of people on this board, actually).  Keep us posted on the Brahms.     

[sznitzeln]

I didnt read this thread so carefully, but here goes:

If playing chords in different keys doesnt help you in playing actual pieces, try playing the scales and chords just before your pieces (in the right tonality of course...), that will definely help more...

[robertp]

Sznitzeln: good point. Might take the sudden death out of it, although they're getting enough into my fingers so they're less obnoxious. And Teacher didn't even ask to hear any today -- he wanted scales (C major HT, B major HT double thirds).

Whynot. Well it's a living, and means one is never at a loss for words at a cocktail party  . I'll not make any claims about my teaching except to say students keep taking the courses and give good evaluations. Thing is, spending some of my time as a teacher (the rest in writing...you don't want to hear about footnotes -- this is, after all, a piano place!) makes one very critical of other teachers -- and lectures too (I almost never go to them). Maybe knowing too much about how it's done equals too much knowledge about how it's done. But you are so right! Those who teach whatever all too often fall into ruts. The easy way out, instead of deciding what a student, or a class needs, and pitching it to that. When I lecture I'm constantly looking at the class...if they seem lost I slow down and lower the content, if they seem antsy I speed up and up the content.  But most do one-size-fits-all, as has been discussed often around here on piano teachers.

But as I wrote up above to our colleague, the discussion seems to have born fruit. We did MacDowell and Brahms today, and Teacher made any number of good suggestions on voicing, fingering, etc. Less on scales -- a modest point or too, but after I rattled through them, the comment was "wow. very exciting." So that's working out okay.

But I think, thanks to this place ( ) that there's an underlying problem. The music inspires me, and while Teacher is good, Teacher does not. The other thread on this board about the inspiring teacher in Brooklyn got me to thinking.

Picky, picky, never satisfied...but I can be and have in the past. Must ponder carefully.