Papal Condomnation

[thomj]

So Benedictus XXIVCXIOU or whatever is the new poop.

The German newsreader on SBS tells me this morning that he's a conservative theologian, and has been THE major conservative theologue since 1981.

Well that's just great. Two murderous pontiffs in a row (although I'd put my money on there being more then 2- althooouugh Poop JPII was alive so bloody long who'd remember the poop before him?!)

Let me explain. It's not too complicated really...

The Catholic church hates condoms. It despises them. Against the will of god, or whatever. So they condemn their use, and their distribution around the world. No, they go OUT OF THEIR WAY to stop these little rubber miracle workers finding their way into the hands of millions of HIV infected people.

Condoms save lives, but the Catholics are willing to be heartless and regressive and let all these people die.

What are they on?

[Waldszenen]

I'm Catholic


And I think the Catholic church's condemnation of condoms is utterly bizarre.

[Bacfokievrahms]

Please learn more about the history of the catholic church. John Paul II and John Paul were revolutionarily compassionate in the line of papacy.

Really I don't get what you're on about, this is such an inane topic to be morally outraged over. The catholic church not supporting contraceptives is not anything new - in fact it goes back to the Old Testament with a story about a guy getting directly punished (I think killed) by God for pulling out before he came - and usage of or production of contraceptives by people who already use them or were already planning on using them is not going to change because another pope again supports abstinence rather than contraception.

Religion isn't about keeping everyone happy and in a shell where they don't have to live up to what the religion purports as moral obligation. It's a clear set of doctrines.

If anything, I think the aspect of your post that's most morally outrageous is the implication that people might think it's actually ok to have sex while having HIV.

[dinosaurtales]

Yes, now let's remember that this is the Catholic Church we are talking about.  Backo..... is right.  In the church, the whole point of sex is to procreate - it's not about having FUN (Just 'cause "some" folks like it - a-HEM!).  In any case, I think it's reaching a bit to call them murderous because they don't believe in contraception.  First of all, nobody put a gun to anybody's head and said they had to be in the Catholic Church - so if they disagree that vehemently, maybe they shouldn't be Catholic.  Second of all, Back.........is right (and why did you pick such a long name anyway?)  somebody with HIV probably woiuld be well advised NOT to have sex.  It seems they are the "murderous" ones to me.

[Floristan]

As we continue to careen closer to the edge of global annihilation thanks to overpopulation the Catholic church stands strong in its condemnation of contraception, thus proving its dedication to the sanctity of life -- without a care for how all that life is going to survive on a planet with dwindling resources, no concern for the ever increasing level of poverty except to say the poor are sacred (Oh, thank you very much, say the poor).  It's preposterous.  And then to deny their followers contraceptives to prevent the transmission of AIDS -- truly heartfelt decision, dudes!

Has it occurred to any of these numbsculls that God may prefer us to pursue paths of survival rather than certain destruction and that slavish adherence to ancient laws will keep us locked in a viscious cycle that will end with our extinction?  But that's OK, because they believe, if that happens, it's God's will.  Bull.  Not God's will.  The will of willful "princes of the church".  That church has been on the wrong path since Paul.  This is NOT what Jesus had in mind at all!

[thomj]

Please learn more about the history of the catholic church. John Paul II and John Paul were revolutionarily compassionate in the line of papacy.

heh. not if i can help it. revolutionarily compassionate - - - relative to other popes... what a noble achievement. 

...

blah blah blah

Religion isn't about keeping everyone happy and in a shell where they don't have to live up to what the religion purports as moral obligation. It's a clear set of doctrines.

If anything, I think the aspect of your post that's most morally outrageous is the implication that people might think it's actually ok to have sex while having HIV.

These days, kids are born with HIV in some places in africa. Why shouldn't they be able to have sex? They haven't done anything wrong. They probably don't even know they have it.

I apologise for being morally outraged by the fact that out of the millions of people who have contracted HIV, some could've been saved by the vatican giving aid to these regions (in the form of education and the supply of contraceptive measures) rather than sending in zealous missionaries (especially in south america), spreading 'the word' that if you use a condom, you're sinning, and you'll go to hell.

...usage of or production of contraceptives by people who already use them or were already planning on using them is not going to change because another pope again supports abstinence rather than contraception.

Uh... I know that. Please learn more about the history of the spread of HIV in the real world.

heh.

I was, in fact, talking about those people who've not used contraception before, those people that are most at risk of contracting a sexually transmitted illness. ie. South America and Africa mostly.

Moral shmoral. I'm immoral because I disapprove of the manslaughter of millions?

Forever shall I be immoral...

Has it occurred to any of these numbsculls that God may prefer us to pursue paths of survival rather than certain destruction and that slavish adherence to ancient laws will keep us locked in a viscious cycle that will end with our extinction?  But that's OK, because they believe, if that happens, it's God's will.  Bull.  Not God's will.  The will of willful "princes of the church".  That church has been on the wrong path since Paul.  This is NOT what Jesus had in mind at all!

here, here.

[galonia]

If you are going to be angry towards the leaders of religions opposed to condoms, then you're going to be angry at the leaders of quite a lot of religions.  Islam is also against contraception - sex is for procreation.  Orthodox Jews also believe sex is for procreation.  The Dalai Lama also teaches this.

Do you really believe people are totally brainless?  I give most people more credit, and they will make up their own minds as to how to conduct their own private affairs, with or without the advice of other people.

[Bacfokievrahms]

These days, kids are born with HIV in some places in africa. Why shouldn't they be able to have sex? They haven't done anything wrong. They probably don't even know they have it.

No, they should definitely not be having sex. They were given a raw deal, they haven't done anything to deserve it (although the Buddhist faith to which I suscribe would say differently), but that doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be having sex.

To give a ridiculous but fairly on the mark analogy, it's a like a person being born with an irremovable grenade with a loose pin on their genitalia.

I apologise for being morally outraged by the fact that out of the millions of people who have contracted HIV, some could've been saved by the vatican giving aid to these regions (in the form of education and the supply of contraceptive measures) rather than sending in zealous missionaries (especially in south america), spreading 'the word' that if you use a condom, you're sinning, and you'll go to hell.

Uh... I know that. Please learn more about the history of the spread of HIV in the real world.

heh.

I was, in fact, talking about those people who've not used contraception before, those people that are most at risk of contracting a sexually transmitted illness. ie. South America and Africa mostly.

"In 2002, it was estimated that injecting drug use accounted for 40% of new [HIV] infections in Argentina and 28% in Uruguay."

I'm completely in the dark about the rest of South America.

In Africa however, there are several tribal customs that mandate widows and widowers to engage in sexual activity with appropriate relatives of the deceased's family. Furthermore the sexual culture in East Africa is such that women do not consider sex with condoms to be sex at all because it doesn't give them the closeness. Furthermore it's against certain tribal beliefs to even take western medicine. It really has very little to do with the catholic church.

BUT, if you're really into comparison.

Code: [Select]

                                  Christians (%)      HIV/AIDS rate (%)

Congo (Dem. Rep.)       95.3                       4.9

Equatorial Guinea         95.1                       3.4

Angola                          94.1                       5.5

Congo                           91.3                       7.2

Burundi                         90.1                       8.3

Uganda                         88.7                       5.0

Zambia                          85.0                     21.5

Swaziland                      82.7                     33.4

Rwanda                         80.8                       8.9

Malawi                           80.0                     15.0

 

But where the figures get really depressing (for an evangelical Christian) is when you realise that in general the HIV/AIDS rate is highest in those countries where Protestants and other non-Catholic Christians predominate.

 

Here are the 20 most non-Catholic Christian countries in Africa and their adult HIV/AIDS infection rate:

 

        Non-Catholic Christians (%)            HIV/AIDS rate (%)

Swaziland                   78.0                                         33.4

South Africa                 65.2                                         20.1

Ethiopia                       64.4                                           6.4

Namibia                       64.0                                         22.5

Botswana                    63.2                                         38.8

Zimbabwe                    63.0                                         33.7

Malawi                         57.1                                         15.0

Kenya                          56.0                                         15.0

Ghana                         53.2                                           3.0

Central Af. Rep.           51.7                                         12.9

Zambia                        51.6                                         21.5

Congo (Dem. Rep.)      50.8                                           4.9

Uganda                        46.7                                           5.0

Eritrea                          43.7                                           2.8

Cameroon                    42.5                                         11.8

Congo                          42.0                                           7.2

Nigeria                         39.2                                            5.8

Rwanda                       38.2                                            8.9

Mozambique                36.8                                          13.0

Lesotho                       35.8                                          31.0

 

If you are not already sufficiently depressed, look at a table for the 10 most Muslim countries in Africa:

 

                               Muslims (%)      HIV/AIDS rate (%)

Somalia                      100.0                1.0

Morocco                       99.9                 0.1

Algeria                         96.7                 0.1

Libya                            96.5                 0.2

Senegal                       92.1                 0.5

Gambia                        88.8                 1.6

Mali                              87.0                 1.7

Egypt                           86.5                 0.1

Sierra Leone                70.0                 7.0

Sudan                          65.0                 2.6



Guess which two of the three above promote abstinence and which one promotes usage of contraceptives.

Moral shmoral. I'm immoral because I disapprove of the manslaughter of millions?

Forever shall I be immoral...

I never said you were immoral. I said you were morally outraged over an inane topic.

Really I don't get what you're on about, this is such an inane topic to be morally outraged over

If anything, you probably have a set of moral standards that you are fairly fervent about. But you do not seem to be nor interested in being educated enough to have opinions that are based in objective fact.

Oh and I won't even respond to the comment about the compassion of the catholic church's last few popes. Just ask anyone knowledgeable about the teachings of the catholic church in the 40's and 50's and compare them to what they are today.

[Daevren]

Its not that hard to be more compassionate then the previous popes while those were allied with the Nazi's and have the blood of 6 million people on their hands.

I brought this topic up before, people do not seem to understand. It doesn't matter what the bible says.

And the catholic church is making it worse, get your facts right.

Also remember its only christianity that is totally obsessed with sex. Sinning means having sex, not breaking one of the ten commandments or not living like Jezus.

[BoliverAllmon]

Its not that hard to be more compassionate then the previous popes while those were allied with the Nazi's and have the blood of 6 million people on their hands.

I brought this topic up before, people do not seem to understand. It doesn't matter what the bible says.

And the catholic church is making it worse, get your facts right.

Also remember its only christianity that is totally obsessed with sex. Sinning means having sex, not breaking one of the ten commandments or not living like Jezus.

keep lying to yourself.

[mikeyg]

Are you really going to listen to the Pope if you screw like a rabit anyway?  It's pretty retarded and infuriating when people complain about this. 

Seriously, think about this.  Are you going to listen to the pope when he says "don't use condoms" but not when he says "don't have premaritial sex"?  If you are stupid enough not to where a condom while having sex where contraception is not the objective, then you are far too stupid and immature to be having sex in the first place.

[janice]

Please remember that there is a huge difference between true Christianity and Catholocism.  <gasp>  I know that I will probably get ripped apart for saying that, but it is true.  Christianity is about JESUS.  Catholocism is about "the church".  But they don't mean "the church" that Scripture speaks of.  I totally understand why many people who grew up Catholic are totally disillusioned because of the Catholic Church.  Scripture does not speak of purgatory either.  Where the he!! did that come from?  Certainly not the Bible!  What's the deal with saying all those "Hail Mary's"?  The Bible says that "there is one Mediator between God and man, and that is Christ Jesus".  Even Mary herself knew that she herself needed a Savior. Luke 1:47--"How I rejoice in God my savior."  Ok, I've finished ranting!


(LOL--check out the Google ads!  You can download a screensaver of Pope John Paul II!!  I'm not even Catholic and I think I will download it just for the heck of it!!)

[thomj]

did any of you hear how ratzinger refused to give john kerry communion because of his position on abortion? and that he supported bush's last campaign? seeing as though I do not seem to be nor interested in being educated enough to have opinions that are based in objective fact.... maybe someone can help me here?

and janice... sheesh. one form is just as bad as the other. so you have different cult-like fancies? some speak in tongue, some say hail mary. it's all bad.

[janice]

and janice... sheesh. one form is just as bad as the other. so you have different cult-like fancies? some speak in tongue, some say hail mary. it's all bad. 

Oh please!  Take a step back and listen to how you sound.  It is very obvious that you are against "religion".  Good.  So was Jesus.  He despised the religious rulers of his day.

(btw--I've never spoken in tongues, but know many who have.  No, it's not "all the same".)

[Dazzer]

The problem with religion?

It doesn't keep up with changing times.

there i said it. religion is becoming obsolete.

[Bacfokievrahms]

I agree.

But it all depends on what you think the role of religion is. If you think it's an institution that lays down rules and doctrines for the sake of governing its members actions to make sure that all of its members are democratically satisfied then yes it fails greatly in this aspect.

If you think of religion as a conveyance for your own personal journey to God however, who's to say if religion is becoming obsolete? Actually, if it were up to me to say, I would still say that most established forms of religion (please be more discriminate in differentiating religion from judeochristian/muslim religion)  are less than functional because they indeed do not adapt to the specific problems that are set before people trying to find God in this age.

[Bacfokievrahms]

Please remember that there is a huge difference between true Christianity and Catholocism. 

There's a similar philosophical/practical gap between almost all religions - it's especially strange to see this in Taoism because the gap is unbelievable. Buddhism provides a very good explanation for the gaps in practice and doctrine. It uses the metaphor of enlightenment being another shore, and the practices that it provides as a conveyance to the other shore.

BTW, speaking in tongues and saying hail mary are completely different things. Saying hail mary is a practice, speaking in tongues is a mystical experience. I've never actually met anyone who's spoken in tongues - of course it's not something that comes into conversation (likely because people would think you're crazy) - however, I have met people who've experienced the same kinds of mystical experience (feeling burning heat in one's body, electrical sparks in the head, making involuntary movements, etc.) from other religions and agnostics that have felt it too (and indeed I also have felt them, buddhist, but I'm reluctant to bring this up because talking about it has strange effects doctrinally in certain forms of buddhism).

[puma]

    Janice, you said you know people who have spoken in tongues.   I am very interested in this - is this something they experienced with other people directly, or by themselves?  Or was it a communal mystical experience of some sort?  If you have any more information on this, please share it with us.  Thanks,
Puma

[SDL]

"Religion is the root of all evil" I heard this so many times.

Now Im not saying I don't believe in anything but I CANNOT believe that "God" punishes people with death and suffering as interpretations of the "Bible" seem to be saying.  The whole point of "God" is love.  We are constantly told he loves us etc and then we are punished by something terrible?!!  Come on!! Its MAN that punishes not "God" or your belief in God, Jesus, whatever.  Its MAN that wrote these sets of rules in Bible format.  Look at the Gospels.  Half of them are missing (Mary Magdelena etc).  Its political because in those days it was the power of "religion" that ruled.  And perhaps a way of controlling society in a certain way.. look at the book in the Old testament about cooking meat - Deuteronomy.  It made sense in those days because of hygiene, not eating dead animals, sanitation etc.  God doesn't punish us if we get it wrong.  We do.  We ate something bad we get ill.  If anything its Nature that punishes.

God is another name for Nature.  Nature is real, you see it, it's balanced and you can't argue with it.  You mess with it you get punished (global warming etc), you destroy life and something bad comes round to you in the end.  Im a firm believer in what goes around comes around.  Being good is about being tolerant to all living things, its about obeying the rules of Nature.   The teachings of the bible are about adhering a man's view of what you should and shouldn't do according to the politics of the day. 

We don't need strict rules on pro-creation anymore - we are over populating in some areas.  There is a natural cycle of life and death.  The more people we have the more chance of War and disease because we have more poverty and more agressors.  When the population goes down we grow again.   I think animals have more of a right to be here than us.  They obey nature's cycle naturally we, rather, man, destroys and we will be punished - by Nature itself.  Look at the BSE in UK because it was wrong to feed vegetarian animals offal.  The people who thought they would gain from this in money, lost everything in the end.  Religion is an interpretation of the rules of nature but with a powerful gain by some and not at all accurate.  I believe that a man called Jesus knew the basic humanitarian values for all life and tried to teach it in a way that people could understand.  I think everyone else has twisted it around for political gain.  The church ruled Kings and Queens through psycological games.  In a way controlled the way they ruled.  OK Rant over 

[BoliverAllmon]

"Religion is the root of all evil" I heard this so many times.

Now Im not saying I don't believe in anything but I CANNOT believe that "God" punishes people with death and suffering as interpretations of the "Bible" seem to be saying.  The whole point of "God" is love.  We are constantly told he loves us etc and then we are punished by something terrible?!!  Come on!! Its MAN that punishes not "God" or your belief in God, Jesus, whatever.  Its MAN that wrote these sets of rules in Bible format.  Look at the Gospels.  Half of them are missing (Mary Magdelena etc).  Its political because in those days it was the power of "religion" that ruled.  And perhaps a way of controlling society in a certain way.. look at the book in the Old testament about cooking meat - Deuteronomy.  It made sense in those days because of hygiene, not eating dead animals, sanitation etc.  God doesn't punish us if we get it wrong.  We do.  We ate something bad we get ill.  If anything its Nature that punishes.

God is another name for Nature.  Nature is real, you see it, it's balanced and you can't argue with it.  You mess with it you get punished (global warming etc), you destroy life and something bad comes round to you in the end.  Im a firm believer in what goes around comes around.  Being good is about being tolerant to all living things, its about obeying the rules of Nature.   The teachings of the bible are about adhering a man's view of what you should and shouldn't do according to the politics of the day. 

We don't need strict rules on pro-creation anymore - we are over populating in some areas.  There is a natural cycle of life and death.  The more people we have the more chance of War and disease because we have more poverty and more agressors.  When the population goes down we grow again.   I think animals have more of a right to be here than us.  They obey nature's cycle naturally we, rather, man, destroys and we will be punished - by Nature itself.  Look at the BSE in UK because it was wrong to feed vegetarian animals offal.  The people who thought they would gain from this in money, lost everything in the end.  Religion is an interpretation of the rules of nature but with a powerful gain by some and not at all accurate.  I believe that a man called Jesus knew the basic humanitarian values for all life and tried to teach it in a way that people could understand.  I think everyone else has twisted it around for political gain.  The church ruled Kings and Queens through psycological games.  In a way controlled the way they ruled.  OK Rant over 

God allows you to choose Heaven or Hell. He doesn't force you to go either place.

just because you don't believe doesn't make the idea that much truer or false. The reality is reality.

[SDL]

Yeah thats the kind of response Id expect from someone who's not open to possibility.  Did I not say also "Im not saying I believe in something"?!!  People who dont question their actions I find are not facing reality or problems.  Religion encourages this with an umbrella.  Failth is something different altogether.

[BoliverAllmon]

Yeah thats the kind of response Id expect from someone who's not open to possibility.  Did I not say also "Im not saying I believe in something"?!!  People who dont question their actions I find are not facing reality or problems.  Religion encourages this with an umbrella.  Failth is something different altogether.

yes, you said you can't believe in some stuff....

[SDL]

think I meant I didnt not believe in something

[janice]

    Janice, you said you know people who have spoken in tongues.   I am very interested in this - is this something they experienced with other people directly, or by themselves?  Or was it a communal mystical experience of some sort?  If you have any more information on this, please share it with us.  Thanks,
Puma

Thanks for the inquiry, Puma!  Actually, I know of several instances, but some have told me that they have prayed in tongues, when they were alone.  I believe these people (even though there were no witnesses), because of other things that they have said and done.  Also, I was in a Bible study group where we would have a prayer time at the end, and anybody could pray out loud their request.  One woman was praying and then all of a sudden, she prayed in tongues.  This startled me!  Then, I was on vacation visiting a friend a couple of years ago, and went to their church (Assembly of God).  All of a sudden there was this loud voice behind me, and I couldn't understand a word of it.  I can't remember if she stood up, or not.  But the whole church heard it.  Then, the pastor interpreted what she said.  Apparently, if a person speaks in tongues, and it is from God, someone will be present who will interpret what was just said, so that the congregation will understand it. (So this fact makes me wonder if the praying-in-tongues-while-alone situations.  I guess I wonder what the point is, if noone is there to interpret and be edified by it.  I guess that I just am not positive.)  I remember thinking "Wouldn't this be wild if this happened in MY church?!"LOL.   I know that what happened in that church was from God, even though my pastor and my church would disagree.  It all hinges on the interpretation of Acts chapter 2 in the Bible.  Some say that that is the last instance of tongue-speaking, as no others are recorded after that.

[Daevren]

"just because you don't believe doesn't make the idea that much truer or false. The reality is reality."

How can you say thing without blinking? You take a philosophical point that will lead to the realisation that faith has nothing to do with that what happens in reality, but then you turn it around.

Look, 'don't believe' and 'the idea'. If you don't believe you have no idea, you don't. But you do. You do have an idea. And you claim it does not make any difference, reality is reality.

Isn't the reality that there is no proof for God? And thus your idea that God does exist is meaningless in someone elses reality? The fact that you believe is meaningless to other people.

The fact that you can make such a contradictory statement without realising it consciously really dumbfounds me. And I am lying to myself, huh? Do you really thing I see proof for God every day and I keep brainwashing myself: "There is no God, there is no God, there is no God."

If there was proof for God I would be the first to accept that. I would love it if there was a God. Good and Evil, universal morality, life has clear purpose, everything becomes so easy and perfect. But there just isn't any proof. I refuse to lie to myself. And then bashed for lying to myself. My big message supported with logcial arguments gets countered by four words. How can you manage that?


We talk about the Pope and I say something about what HIS church does and Janice, for the second time, tries to explain to me that not all christians are catholic. Ooh Really! Duh!

And after the catholic church continues to claim, like all other conservative religions do, that they are the only real one, Janice starts to claim that there is some kind of true christianity. Well, tell that to Beneductus XVI. Can't you see it is pointless?

If you would calculate what the chances of betting on the right kind of religion would be, so that you wouldn't go to hell, then don't bother.

There are so many kinds and they all claim that they are the only one and the other people will all go to hell. For all those people that belief, according to religion in general you will have a 98% chance of going to hell. Together with me. Have fun. I will be sure to bring some sheet music to share.

I guess you can't argue with Christians.

[janice]

Isn't the reality that there is no proof for God?

Is there any proof that God does NOT exist?

  I would love it if there was a God.   

YES!!  Watch out what you want or what you pray for, you just might get it, or your name might be mentioned in prayer tonite by the many Christians who read this.  But remember, since there is no God, as you say, then these poor deluded Christians are merely thinking nice thoughts for you!

  and Janice, for the second time, tries to explain to me that not all christians are catholic. Ooh Really! Duh!
   

My apologies. Maybe I switched the two words.  I meant to say that not all CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN.

I guess you can't argue with Christians.   

I know that Iam not trying to argue with you, and I do not sense that any of the others are trying to argue with you either.  I believe that we care enough about you to tell you what Jesus Himself has to say about eternal life.

[Siberian Husky]

HEY HEY NOW...be nice to Janice..shes my friend

these religious talks never fail to get the blood flowin

[Siberian Husky]

    Janice, you said you know people who have spoken in tongues.   I am very interested in this - is this something they experienced with other people directly, or by themselves?  Or was it a communal mystical experience of some sort?  If you have any more information on this, please share it with us.  Thanks,
Puma

i dont think i can elaborate much on this..BUT..i thought the whole speaking in tounges thing was a crack myself...UNTIL i went to a christian carasmatic church a few times....

its really odd..there were maybe about 4-5 people doing it..sometimes all at once..sometimes just one...i guess it was depending on how deep the service was at that specific moment for the individuals...its prety crazy though...sounds like crying sometimes..or whimpering...thats how i pervieved it

[ahmedito]

I believe in God... but it never fails to surprise me how utterly stupid religious people manage to sound (i.e. Janice -- sorry, but over the years, I think Ive posted here for a couple of years now, every single one of your religion related posts, and others which have nothing to do with religion but always manage to bring religion into the mix, are some of the most stupid and senseless things I have ever read! I think you have managed to make more people abandon religion with your inane contributions).

I know it is quite impossible to show what blind faith means, and I have heard these arguments over and over again. One point that keeps coming up constantly in these discussions is the fact that apparently all religions believe they are the one and only. Id like to clear this up, by saying that two of the worlds MAJOR religions (at least in sheer number of people) buddhism and most forms of hinduism do NOT believe they have the last and only true religion. Actually respect and acceptance of other religions is a fundamental part of their practice. Many hindus and buddhists actually attend churches and mosques, in the belief that the same fundamental force is being worshipped.

[Bacfokievrahms]

In the absence of mystical experience, most people (including me at one point) resign religious devotion as a matter of blind faith. But after mystical experience, it just feels undeniable (of course it can still be denied, but after a potent enough mystical experience it would be like denying that water exists after you've drank a cup of it). And that's what I think a lot of skeptical society doesn't realize about religious devotion, that there are religious people that are religious because of the rationalization of their own experiences.

Hah, and of course, I'd like to pre-emptively add that people with mystical interests outperform the norm on psychological functionality questionnaires.

By the way, several religions (especially religions that have a hold in China - disregard falungong) operate on the assumption that they are not the only path to true understanding. Major western religions seem to function with a "you're wrong, I'm right" dynamic, whereas other religions that were traditionally maintained in China functioned with a "What you're seeing is correct, however I feel that what I see is more essential" dynamic.

[Daevren]

Is there any proof that God does NOT exist?

Shees, don't you know proving that something doesn't exist is a logical impossibility?

It is also impossible to proof that there aren't any invisible pink 2-inch elephants under my or your bed.

then these poor deluded Christians are merely thinking nice thoughts for you!

Thats nice.
But in no way does this justify religion. There are many people saying that almost everyone will burn in hell for ever. God or not, thats just not nice and I stand against it.
I admit, I pray for other people sometimes. Not to God or something else its just the idea that I think happy thoughts about the people I like.

When you say some catholics aren't christians you also imply they will go to hell, right? They say the same thing, bases on the same faith. That was my point.

[xvimbi]

Shees, don't you know proving that something doesn't exist is a logical impossibility?

It is also impossible to proof that there aren't any invisible pink 2-inch elephants under my or your bed.

Although I very much like to stay out of this thread, I feel compelled to say something regarding proovability. It is quite possible to disprove something if one knows exactly what one is looking for. If I am looking for "invisible pink 2-inch elephants" under my bed, and I don't find any 2-inch objects, there will be no elephants. BTW, "pink" and "invisible" are incompatible, but it doesn't matter for now.

The problem arises if one does not know what one is looking for, as in the case of God.

[galonia]

Actually respect and acceptance of other religions is a fundamental part of their practice. Many hindus and buddhists actually attend churches and mosques, in the belief that the same fundamental force is being worshipped.

Hey, that is exactly how I feel!

I'm a practising Catholic - I go to Mass every week (almost!) and believe in God and that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for our sins.

I, as do all Catholics, believe other Christians are part of the same "Body of Christ".  Pity some denominations are not Christian enough to show the same tolerance.

I feel that other religions are God's many different ways of communicating with many different people.  I've worshipped in Buddhist temples before.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that - after all, it is just a different physical manifestation of your faith if you practise it differently.  The late Pope John Paul II participated in Australian Aboriginal religious ceremonies, I think, and he encouraged them to keep their Dreaming (their mythology) alive.

Everyone knows the story of three blind men who want to find out what an elephant looks like by feeling it.  Each can only "see" one particular part, so each man comes away thinking the elephant looks a certain way.  None of them is right, but none are wrong.  In the same way, can such small creatures as humans ever see God fully?  Perhaps each religion is a different side of God that we, as the blind men, can see.

[xvimbi]

I feel that other religions are God's many different ways of communicating with many different people.  I've worshipped in Buddhist temples before.  I don't think there is anything wrong with that - after all, it is just a different physical manifestation of your faith if you practise it differently.  The late Pope John Paul II participated in Australian Aboriginal religious ceremonies, I think, and he encouraged them to keep their Dreaming (their mythology) alive.

Everyone knows the story of three blind men who want to find out what an elephant looks like by feeling it.  Each can only "see" one particular part, so each man comes away thinking the elephant looks a certain way.  None of them is right, but none are wrong.  In the same way, can such small creatures as humans ever see God fully?  Perhaps each religion is a different side of God that we, as the blind men, can see.

I wish your view would be adopted by everyone! There would be a lot fewer wars, and it would make living together a lot easier.

Unfortunately, I am sure that followers of the different religions, and even denominations within a given religion, will have many reasons and arguments to dispute your attitude. It's a pity!

[janice]

I believe in God... but it never fails to surprise me how utterly stupid religious people manage to sound (i.e. Janice -- sorry, but over the years, I think Ive posted here for a couple of years now, every single one of your religion related posts, and others which have nothing to do with religion but always manage to bring religion into the mix, are some of the most stupid and senseless things I have ever read! I think you have managed to make more people abandon religion with your inane contributions).

That's interesting, because I have gotten several private messages, and e-mails from non-members (those who only read the forum) who want to discuss God and Jesus more with me!  Maybe I sound "stupid", but Christianity is not about how Janice feels, it's about what Jesus himself has to say.  I always point to Jesus.  So voice your concerns to HIM.  He has all the time in the world, and he wants you to talk to him.

[janice]

I believe in God... but it never fails to surprise me how utterly stupid religious people manage to sound (i.e. Janice -- sorry, but over the years, I think Ive posted here for a couple of years now, every single one of your religion related posts, and others which have nothing to do with religion but always manage to bring religion into the mix, are some of the most stupid and senseless things I have ever read! I think you have managed to make more people abandon religion with your inane contributions).

That's interesting, because I have gotten several private messages, and e-mails from non-members (those who only read the forum) who want to discuss God and Jesus more with me!  Maybe I sound "stupid", but Christianity is not about how Janice feels, it's about what Jesus himself has to say.  I always point to Jesus.  So voice your concerns to HIM.  He has all the time in the world, and he wants you to talk to him.

[BoliverAllmon]

think I meant I didnt not believe in something

double negative?

[mikeyg]

My apologies. Maybe I switched the two words.  I meant to say that not all CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN.

I'm hoping (praying) that this is a joke.

[galonia]

I meant to say that not all CATHOLICS are CHRISTIAN.

In the same way, not everyone who says they're Christian are actually walking in the path of Christ.

And not all Muslims behave according to the teachings of Islam.

And so on and so forth.

[BoliverAllmon]

I'm hoping (praying) that this is a joke.

nope not really a joke at all.

[janice]

nope not really a joke at all.

Correct

[mikeyg]

Oops, I misread your post.  I thought you said that Catholics weren't christian (at all)  sorry for the misunderstanding.

[pianowelsh]

Truth IS Absolute. It doesnt change and it is not a matter of opinion it is a constant by which all other things are measured. Jesus said 'I am the way the TRUTH and the life' OK so before we go down the whole Christians a opinionated biggots we need to establish that we are working from a position where we do not live in an aimless and pluralistic society where what goes today doesnt tomorrow and vis a versa - and its Not our arrogance because its not 'our' word its GODS. Do you really think God is scratching his head and thinking - oh dear these silly people have procreated too much and now there will be no room for them all and they will die.... Im sorry but if you know even the basics about God you know that he loves his people and that he is in complete control of his creation - the 'crisis' with HIV is not outside of his control nor is the election of a pope and protecting his own people.  people make such a fuss about something like sex (because they get emotionally involved in it) Its such a silly debate because God has been very clear in his word about sexual relations and speaks harshly against sexual immorality. Granted the Problem in Africa is not really to do with this as HIV is spread in multiple ways. BUT o be perfectly frank in this circumstance it is not the Catholic church or condoms etc which are the issue its obedience and the Catholic church stand against promiscuity. Now there is an issue about those who have been infected and whose are not promiscuous  - its a messy situation so i dont hold with a complete ban on them as its a blanket law which is actually not helping(im not catholic) but it must be recognised that on this issue Catholic doctorine has overstepped what is taught in scripture in its outworking.  The Pope is not God and the apocrapher is not scripture (they are fallible - im afraid) But God is still God and noone who trusts in him will ever be put to shame.

[SDL]

TRUTH - cannot be defined. Its a matter of opinion.  Religious people always quote the bible to every problem that exists.  Its a cop out.  All wars are based around religion and always have been.  Perhaps if we took more notice of abiding to mother "earth" and its inhabitants well being we wouldn't have so many issues that we cannot settle because someone has to say "Believe" in what we believe in or you will perish  blah blah..

At one time in the world BC we used to worship the "mother" earth.  Who changed it to God, Man etc.. Exactly Man did.

I dont object to faith I object to "Man" saying what that means we should be doing instead of using the innate humanity we all have somewhere deep down thats clouded with confusion over religious belief.  I object to being told that if I don't believe bad things happen etc..

The reason I love music so much is that its the closest thing to the Human condition we can get without all this BS we create.

[ahmedito]

Actually.... all wars have been about money and land

Religion is just the excuse.

[SDL]

Thats a valid point Fernandito.  Religion seems to be an excuse for alot of power and control.

[thomj]

But God is still God and noone who trusts in him will ever be put to shame.

put to shame... put to shame...

does 'put to shame' mean 'found out'? 'publically humiliated'? 'made to feel dishonoured, disgraced, or condemed'?

coz i mean... i think god, i think USA, i think GWB.

then i think GWB, and idiocy, and lies, and god, and white supremacy, and unfounded cause for war, and torture, and rigged elections... the list goes on. and on.

has he not already been shamed?

and

the 'crisis' with HIV is not outside of his control

so it's INSIDE of his control? so he's doing it on purpose? or sorry- 'letting it happen'? is this what you're saying??