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Topic: Stamina in chopin 10.2  (Read 2622 times)

Offline SDL

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Stamina in chopin 10.2
on: April 21, 2005, 12:34:21 PM
Ok.  Ive seen all the threads on this etude.  Ive been doing this one for about 4-5 months, and Ive made progress but I think I should be making more.

  • I can comfortably play 116 no problem all the way through.
    I can play 120 most of the way through
    I can play RH top line close to 144/152 but not all the way through (prob all but the a few lines in towards the end of the middle just before the first theme comes back)
    I can play RH with chords in sections around 132.

But my main problem is stamina.  I think I may be tense somewhere perhaps but if I try and speed up the whole thing I can't get all the way through at speed cos I get tired on the 3rd 4th fingers.  Ive tried cycling the middle section in bars and joining next notes and next bars and I get the difficult bit now with the 8ve chords.  Ive tried semi staccato RH and im trying leaning on the top rh notes slightly as if glissandi ripple effect.

PLEASE has Anyone got any suggestions to help with the stamina thing!!

many thanks

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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #1 on: April 21, 2005, 01:39:18 PM
play it really legato...anchoring yourself on 1st & 2nd fingers of your RH, holding whenever possible, all the time concentrating on staying free and relaxed.  Dont be so preoccupied with speed - that is what is making you tense.  Rember that you always have time to play as many notes as you need and still be relaxed.  I have anly recently discovered this myself, and it can be difficult to believe yourself when you say "look, I have all the time in the world!"  But trust me, this is the way to work!
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #2 on: April 21, 2005, 02:17:25 PM
Hi pianomann

when you say anchoring do you mean pivot on bottom notes?  I push with the bottom to go in the direction of the top like a push staccato --> leading to position of 3rd finger quickly.

Can you play up to speed?  I do see what you mean about the time, but I tend to slow down if I don't energise the bottom chords to the direction for position of the top notes.

Thanks
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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #3 on: April 23, 2005, 03:05:56 AM
Admittedly I cannot yet play this up to speed, as I only started working on it intermittently for a total for a couple of hours over the past fortnight, but I feel I am actually nearly there with it.  As a general rule, my worry with stacatto practice is that although it has its uses, the hand gets used to not going right to the bottom of the key, so up to speed it tends to get a bit scetchy with lots of missing notes.  Your concept of direction, however, is a very valid one, and you can do this even when playing legato, ensuring that your hand is always pointing in the direction that it needs to go by adjusting the position of your elbows very slightly as you go along.  Also my sense of 'anchoring' the 1st/2nd fingers (by this I mean holding their notes for as long as you can before you have to change hand position, whilst playing the moving semi's) helps to establish a stronger physical memory of the piece so you are less likely to forget when you come up to speed.  As a secondary effect, I found this also isolates the 3rd/4th/5th fingers, greatly enhancing the effect of the etude itself.  But be very careful not to tense up - stay very aware of your muscles from your shoulders right to your fingertips as you play - If you feel ANY tension, then stop, stretch and relax, and begin again, perhaps at a slightly slower tempo.  It's yet another thing to think about, but hey...this also will help you to find out just how well you know the music!  ;D By doing this at a variety of speeds, you will soon discover the problems that are currently masked (I think!) by the tense feeling that you have been experiencing (I can't know for sure without seeing you play it, but these ways of practicing will help you to further investigate the difficulties of this formiddable etude).
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Offline robert

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #4 on: April 23, 2005, 08:14:39 PM
I used to play this etude a lot. At least one time per day to strengthen fingers 3-4-5 of right hand. I never managed it really well as in b=144 and tried a lot of different methods. I also used to play it directly after 10/1 which really is a pain as 10/1 will make you very tired before you let your right hand down the side of the chair, shake it for a couple of seconds and then do 10/2 (wonderful to reach 10/3 ;-)).
One thing you can try is to skip the chords of right hand which ease the flow up a lot. I mean...hardly anyone will notice it anyway (but for where you play right hand alone).  :D
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #5 on: April 24, 2005, 02:50:36 AM
The faster you try to play the piece, the bigger shall be your beat.  Don't try quarter=144, rather half that speed counting halfs. 
Don't hold the lower chord in the right hand; on the contrary, to keep the hand free and not tense those should be released in time: after one sixteenth,
It is important that the wrist doesn't try and do the work.  The wrist cannot be going from side to side like a windshield Wiper.  It has to be flexible so it can make room the fingers.
Also the elbow has to be free, because some of the crossings are more awkward than others, and without the elbow, the fingers will tire, or get confused.
But above all those things, every note has to be melodic, and in this case, in a light, spooky sound.  If it is not melodic with every contour felt, it won't work- ever.

Walter Ramsey

Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #6 on: April 24, 2005, 10:51:14 AM
Don't hold the lower chord in the right hand; on the contrary, to keep the hand free and not tense those should be released in time:

Why not try both (as well as any other ways that work for you - experiment) and post back which works for you?  I would be interested to see.  For me, the 'clingy' feeling that one gets from holding these notes results in a warmer, more melodic sound in practice (though obviously when you perform you would not hold them - it is simply a practical means to an end).  Also by thinking about always feeling comfortable and relaxed, you will remain so, regardless of the way you play it.

...in this case, in a light, spooky sound.

I'm not so sure about spooky.  I tend to think of it more as a spider busily spinning a web on a dewey spring morning (though really, i guess we should not introduce imagery into musically concieved, non-programmatic/absolute music).  In terms of the lines, I agree though, think in long 4 bar phrases at the start and you can't fail to play melodically.
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #7 on: April 25, 2005, 11:35:17 AM
Hi thanks all for your replies,

pianomann I had always played very legato slowly/118, but I in my previous thread I just wanted to say I had tried it other ways like semi-staccato as I tried to near speeds 144-152. 

Now I have to say I made alot of progress since I saw your replies.  Im very comfortable around 126-132 ht with my direction bouncing method.  I dont find clinging whilst playing the semis a viable option for me, maybe you have a really big hand?? (mines a minor 10th).  Or maybe this works at slower speeds.  If you are to get up to speed though you need to see how it works at top speed, and I find I need to get out of the notes quickly (but fairly deep) and not stuck into them as it hinders the semis being smooth and non-jerky.  The semis - I kind of glissani on these so you move your hand position very subtley to get the right wrist height for the black note/white note combi's.  So you end up kind of walking on 3-4-5 fingers whilst the 1/2 stay on the keys and a quick jab/push up to give momentum to the top fingers.
 Another thing:

 
The faster you try to play the piece, the bigger shall be your beat. Don't try quarter=144, rather half that speed counting halfs.
Don't hold the lower chord in the right hand; on the contrary, to keep the hand free and not tense those should be released in time: after one sixteenth,
It is important that the wrist doesn't try and do the work. The wrist cannot be going from side to side like a windshield Wiper. It has to be flexible so it can make room the fingers.
Also the elbow has to be free, because some of the crossings are more awkward than others, and without the elbow, the fingers will tire, or get confused.
But above all those things, every note has to be melodic, and in this case, in a light, spooky sound. If it is not melodic with every contour felt, it won't work- ever.

Walter Ramsey


Yes I found thinking in common time (chopin's markings - 2 in a bar) is easier because you get more rhythm at the higher speeds and it doesnt chop your momentum up.  So I practice RH glissandi speed (144-160) 2 groups + first beat of 3rd group, back to beginining of 3rd group + 4th group and 1st beat of next bar etc.  This means I get an upbeat and momentum in the middle.  It changes though for the some passages.  The gminor (key)chromatic section (before the middle section) - I may practice 3 groups because on the decent (A,Aflat,g,f# is part of the last group of 2) and begin the next group f,e,eflat,d, etc on the upbeat.  And again in the middle where the 8ve chords are I have different groupings here.  Its because of the fingering Im using and more simple positioning  of the hand in a common direction.

I have experimented alot with this piece and Ive concluded that everyone plays this differently because of hand shape etc.  But its interesting that some ideas are more common.  I agree that the legato is essential - (I like a cold winter wind sound through doors effect - I used to think the winter wind was this one because this is the sound/perception Ive had in my head for about 11 yrs).  I can't get around it at speed if my fingers are not already touching the notes before they play, so piannomann the semi-staccato Id tried was a mis-nomer.

Piannomann you are doing really well if you have only been at it a few weeks!
Please let me know how you get on.  I know I find my progress fluctuates a bit depending on how tired I am usually.
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Offline nikodr

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #8 on: April 26, 2005, 12:53:05 AM
Whoever who says that we should hold the fingers 1,2 of right hand are WRONG.
1) it is impossible to do it in fast speed (creates a big wall in speed )and
2) if you check chopin's writing -(he was very KEEN on writing technically for piano remember ,chopin and beethoven the ones who first wrote in technicaly notation style extensively)-,you will see that the first chord is always a semiquaver,that means it is not meant to be held with the hand,you play it quickly and then leave the key,legato has more to do with the connection of 3,4,5 fingers of the right hand.Please correct this because it can frustrate a lot of people.It is NOT meant to play those semiquaver chords legatisimo.They are just a semiquaver they SHOULD UNDER NO WAY SOUND MORE (forgive me for yelling i have to say this a lot of times)

Check it and you will see that chopin writes his music in technical notation style with some reason in his mind.If he would want the 1,2 fingers to be anchored and kept down he would not write the chords of the right hand in semiquavers but in quavers or who knows.I hope this clears some wrong ways about how this etude should be practiced.Legato here it has to be done with the 3,4,5 of the right hand 1,2 are ONLY a semiquaver

Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #9 on: April 26, 2005, 08:35:18 AM
nikodr - Thanks, I think you've just iterated and confirmed what my reply was saying just above  :)
 
Im convinced my method for learning this piece is correct because Im almost up to speed at 'legato', and I never even dreamed of being able to play this at even 100 when I first started this a 4 months ago.  Best tip I have is practice glissandi runs (3-4-5)in groups of 4 semis and work the movements in with the chords.  AND look at fingering - I changed alot of fingering for stamina and speed using 3-5 where possible (usually descending) instead of 3-4 to give the 4th finger a rest, but also 3-5 is faster when the hand is turned slightly to the right and has to shift down.
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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #10 on: April 26, 2005, 10:47:42 AM
Whoever who says that we should hold the fingers 1,2 of right hand are WRONG.
1) it is impossible to do it in fast speed (creates a big wall in speed )and
2) if you check chopin's writing -(he was very KEEN on writing technically for piano remember ,chopin and beethoven the ones who first wrote in technicaly notation style extensively)-,you will see that the first chord is always a semiquaver,that means it is not meant to be held with the hand,you play it quickly and then leave the key,legato has more to do with the connection of 3,4,5 fingers of the right hand.Please correct this because it can frustrate a lot of people.It is NOT meant to play those semiquaver chords legatisimo.They are just a semiquaver they SHOULD UNDER NO WAY SOUND MORE (forgive me for yelling i have to say this a lot of times)

Check it and you will see that chopin writes his music in technical notation style with some reason in his mind.If he would want the 1,2 fingers to be anchored and kept down he would not write the chords of the right hand in semiquavers but in quavers or who knows.I hope this clears some wrong ways about how this etude should be practiced.Legato here it has to be done with the 3,4,5 of the right hand 1,2 are ONLY a semiquaver


If you will read my post again a little more carefully, you will notice that I state that practicing this way is only a means to an end.  Of course one would not perform in this way, and I would be insulted if anyone were to imply that I would be unthorough enough not to notice that the 1/2 parts are 'ONLY a quaver'.  In practicing this way, one does infact make the etude a good deal harder, enhancing the effect of strengthening the 3rd/4th & 5th fingers by a good deal more.  Thus one can reach the standard required to play this etude much quicker than if you simply practice by repetition.  I prefer this method, and know of several very good pianists that would agree with me, so please do not discount my ideas so readily, especially by simply saying they are WRONG.  By all means feel free to say that you disagree, but by saying people are WRONG outright, you are likely to start to get on certain people's nerves very quickly.
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #11 on: April 26, 2005, 11:02:17 AM
pianomann I will try your method tonight  ;)
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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #12 on: April 26, 2005, 11:13:22 AM
sorry...those comments were not so much directed at you, SDL.  But I am flattered that you will stoop to my level of practice!  For me any practice is not about practising to perform, its about discovering and addressing the difficultes, and through them, improving yourself.  It's not for everyone, but I do find it to be a much quicker, and in some ways, an easier road to success, though it can be a little sobering to tackle problems face on like this - you may find that you are unable to play anchored, as I say, for very long before you get tired...if so then congratulations...you have discovered a problem that needs addressing!

Enjoy!
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #13 on: April 26, 2005, 11:29:15 AM
pianomann I don't understand - why is it a problem to be tired when anchoring and then needing to sort this problem out.  I thought this is just another practice method like you know when you overexaggerate an opposite method to stop you doing something - like dotted rhythms, accents.  Please explain what you mean.  I like facing things head on btw! 
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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #14 on: April 26, 2005, 11:49:50 AM
Well, as the problem we are discussing is stamina, when I practice a piece, I aim to be able to perform it without tiring.  At this stage, you can forget that you are practising Chopin 10.2, or whatever, and it becomes an excersise for addressing the stamina, which is such a problem in so many pieces.  You can make it harder by anchoring, and then when you come back to practicing to perform normally, you will find it infinitely easier.  Anchoring is just one way you can do this, but I feel you should be able to play anything several times without being tired.  By practicing this way you are thinking even more carefully about the physical movements you are making, and can eventually see fundamental things that need addressing...eg tension in the forearms/complete release of arm weight.  Otherwise you will practice this over and over again, and still not know what the actual problem is....it is different for everyone, and this is just one way of exploring the movements of your fingers, hands and arms in more depth.  In this way you will ultimately improve your playing of any piece, which, I think gets the the very heart of why Chopin wrote these Etudes.
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #15 on: April 26, 2005, 12:36:46 PM
Ok.  Do you believe in working/coordinaing with the muscles/movements as opposed to trying to build them up as in strength?  I always find confusion in statements I see about muscles and playing.  At some point the reality is we do get tired maybe because we are overdoing it muscularly.  I find that when I have rested and then try again I feel much stronger but perhaps Im just more coordinated.   What I can't work out is this... when you start a technical piece like 10.2 you quite often start doing some other method that won't help you play at performance level but you think it helps at the beginning leve.  Sometimes its having enough stamina to last a line or 2.  But then when you've been doing the wrong thing for ages because you find some better way like use less movement or more flexibility, then you still have the stamina to do the wrong way - this could be fingerwork on 3-4-5 which would have been weak (were they weak because they weren't conditioned at the time?).  So does it help your technique to play something because you did it the wrong way originally or is this a misnomer? 

I know I tried 10.2 firstly by playing deep into the keys slowly and then hit a barrier where I couldn't go any faster.  I read loads of stuff on here about fast practice in groups to get a feel of the muscles/coordination you need to play up to speed, and then all of a sudden I was able to get around it better.  Ive seen people say to others who are learning chopin etudes that you have all the muscles you need but the learner still has a problem.  So my question is .. do you have to go through the indirect methods to achieve knowledge of the right methods that help you play something at performance level, and in addition do the indirect methods give you some extra muscular stamina to achieve the less muscular methods.  I hope this makes sense!!  :-\
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Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #16 on: April 26, 2005, 12:52:05 PM
Try not to think in terms of direct/indirect/right/wrong.  I believe that all the ways you can possibly think of in practicing a piece have a use.  I also believe that a good technique encompasses a fine balance between knowledge of muscular movemements and actual brute strength.  Of course in order to have control of a full range of dynamics/colours, we need strong fingers, but I do think it is more important to remain relaxed and flexible (ie. have a good knowledge of muscular movement), and the only way to discover how to do that is to explore by practicing in more ways.  What I meant by this was that there is much more to the Chopin Etudes (and indeed any other piece) than the dots show (I'm still talking technically), and only by practising concientiously can we benefit fully from their challenges.
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Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #17 on: April 26, 2005, 05:18:18 PM
Ok.  Do you believe in working/coordinaing with the muscles/movements as opposed to trying to build them up as in strength?  I always find confusion in statements I see about muscles and playing.  At some point the reality is we do get tired maybe because we are overdoing it muscularly.  I find that when I have rested and then try again I feel much stronger but perhaps Im just more coordinated.   
I know I tried 10.2 firstly by playing deep into the keys slowly and then hit a barrier where I couldn't go any faster.  I read loads of stuff on here about fast practice in groups to get a feel of the muscles/coordination you need to play up to speed, and then all of a sudden I was able to get around it better.  Ive seen people say to others who are learning chopin etudes that you have all the muscles you need but the learner still has a problem.

Why is it, that a mother whose child is trapped underneath an automobile, has the strength, suddenly and without any training, to lift the automobile, and free the child?  She hasn't worked to strengthen the necessary muscles, after all.  It is because in the time of need, the body suddenly became coordinated, naturally, and without impediment.
That is not to say that somewhere deep inside us Noble Savages is the automatic ability to play every Chopin Etude.  It is to say that it is not a weight-lifting process.
Certain fundamentals have to be recognized, for instance the wrist in this etude cannot be allowed to move from side to side, it cannot get tense.  The lower, naturally stronger fingers cannot allowed to be too heavy, because it will hold back the upper ones. 
(The pinky, incidentally, is counted among the strongest fingers; only in day-to-day life we use it less than the thumb and index finger.  The third and fourth are connected inside, and need more work to achieve independence from each other.)
Also the type of touch used.  The touch is akin to stroking a cat, as a friend of mine said, for this light legato, a subtle pulling feeling.  We can play full-bodied, even pesante sound with this touch and not get tired.  In other words, the type of touch is fundamental, and we can make adjustments to it, like the amount of weight used, or the speed of it on the keys.  If a  heavy feeling prevails, it could indicate an undue level of tension.
The elbow has to be free in this etude, because the fingers cannot be made to do all the work.  Some crossings are more awkward then others, and we simply have to accept that.

Getting tired physically is straining the body; well, the Chopin Etudes can be played without strain.  We should always search for that.
The key is to play melodically.  The lowest bass notes must be melodic in relation to each other; the middle chords in the left hand must also contain melodic strands; the top voice is the "main theme;" and I forgot to mention earlier: the lower parts in the Right Hand.
People have claimed that one can leave those out, and it will go largely unnoticed.
Yes, it will go unnoticed to someone who never saw the score or heard the piece before.
However the lower Right hand parts not only provide necessary notes to fill the chords - it will suffice to look only at the very first sixteenth note in the piece - but also they must be melodic.  Yes, they must have a counter-melody of their own.  if you don't believe this, I invite you to listen to the Cortot recording, and it will be revealed to you in glorious transparency.  This is not an "Oberstimme," ie top voice, etude in the slightest.
I believe searching for the melodic connections, along with employing the fundamental touch, and molding the joints to fit the needs of the fingers, is the key to this etude, and so much else in music making.

Walter Ramsey

Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #18 on: April 27, 2005, 12:01:01 PM
pianomann I tried your method but it goes against what Im trying to achieve - relaxation and correct alignment of the muscles.  Stretching for the semis whilst holding the bottom notes can be damaging.  I think I found my problem however with stamina; if I don't properly align all the fingers/movements then I end up lifting slightly instead of pushing with natural weight from resting the fingers exactly on the notes.  ie airtight.  I believe if I slow down a tad again (go back a step) and make sure I walk on all the notes with the mini-micro arm/wrist movements built in I won't tire on any piano no matter how hard the action is because I will be using natural weight.   The fingers have to be directly aligned - if they are not then the tension comes from an extended muscle trying to push down which causes a strain. 

ramsey - I do think melodically ( I have exactly the sound/legato I want) but speed and stamina need to be addressed separately because I hit a barrier and worked in a problem.  Slower speed practice lets you get away with things that aren't workable at higher speeds no matter how musical you think you are being.

thanks all
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Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #19 on: April 27, 2005, 12:39:38 PM
Apparently Richter gave up on this etude!
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Offline nikodr

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #20 on: April 27, 2005, 04:40:19 PM
Well, as the problem we are discussing is stamina, when I practice a piece, I aim to be able to perform it without tiring.  At this stage, you can forget that you are practising Chopin 10.2, or whatever, and it becomes an excersise for addressing the stamina, which is such a problem in so many pieces.  You can make it harder by anchoring, and then when you come back to practicing to perform normally, you will find it infinitely easier.  Anchoring is just one way you can do this, but I feel you should be able to play anything several times without being tired.  By practicing this way you are thinking even more carefully about the physical movements you are making, and can eventually see fundamental things that need addressing...eg tension in the forearms/complete release of arm weight.  Otherwise you will practice this over and over again, and still not know what the actual problem is....it is different for everyone, and this is just one way of exploring the movements of your fingers, hands and arms in more depth.  In this way you will ultimately improve your playing of any piece, which, I think gets the the very heart of why Chopin wrote these Etudes.


Please try to understand this it was not within my intentions to say something bad against you.It is just the fact that i do not like the way you described one should study in that etude.I understand that you as a pianist use these ideas with some good results.BUT (this is a big but!) when you tell to someone who is frustrated with this etude to anchor his 1 and second finger on the keys,now this is something i consider wrong.

 Second thing of this, there is nothing better than to avoid to exaggerate the "right" motion.(in your case it is exaggeration to play anchor style a piece that is not meant to be played that in fast tempo!).

While i believe in balance,equilibrium,effortless playing and proper placing of hands on keyboard.So in that way your ideas are DEFINITELY WRONG  my friend,to study something and then playing it in other style.

It is like being a weight lifter.That weight lifter cannot lift 50 kilos,so he makes the following thought "haha i will practice at  70 kg and then when i go back to 50 kilos i will be king of the hill.".Ofcourse everyone realizes this is harmful for the body, and the mind of any pianist.Besides piano playing has to be effortless if not you do something wrong.So in that case please try to understand this it was a WRONG idea to post and say to keep the 1,2 finger anchored.Maybe for you it works,but please ,those non standar practices keep them for yourself.Do not try to make others study in a way that is not acceptable and harmful for the hands or fingers.

Too bad there are so many false traditions,taboos,and fetishes in piano playing -SO MANY dos and do not's- most of them based on anatomic nonsense-. And your advice pianomann is exactly this: it is based on a nonsense idea,an idea that is not needed at all at fast tempo.If someone tries to practice the way you suggest it is most probable that they will create misconceptions in their minds about how this etude should be played.

I am going to say again one more for anyone who could not read it before.Pianoman i have nothing against you.We are simply advicing people here.There is nothing wrong if you make mistakes sometimes but......You are wrong pianomann.This etude should NEVER EVER be practiced anchored style.Chopin had a reason for writing the chords in semiquaver style.

Offline chromatickler

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #21 on: April 27, 2005, 10:27:30 PM
Apparently Richter gave up on this etude!
WRONG. there are several recordings of him playing this, including a live one where he does it in 1'10

Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #22 on: April 27, 2005, 11:15:55 PM
pianomann I tried your method but it goes against what Im trying to achieve - relaxation and correct alignment of the muscles.  Stretching for the semis whilst holding the bottom notes can be damaging.  I think I found my problem however with stamina; if I don't properly align all the fingers/movements then I end up lifting slightly instead of pushing with natural weight from resting the fingers exactly on the notes.  ie airtight.  I believe if I slow down a tad again (go back a step) and make sure I walk on all the notes with the mini-micro arm/wrist movements built in I won't tire on any piano no matter how hard the action is because I will be using natural weight.   The fingers have to be directly aligned - if they are not then the tension comes from an extended muscle trying to push down which causes a strain. 

ramsey - I do think melodically ( I have exactly the sound/legato I want) but speed and stamina need to be addressed separately because I hit a barrier and worked in a problem.  Slower speed practice lets you get away with things that aren't workable at higher speeds no matter how musical you think you are being.

thanks all

I'm glad our suggestions helped you to improve (even if mine only served to show you how you don't need to practice it!).  I'm happy that you're feeling much more relaxed.  Best of luck with the rest!  :D
"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline nikodr

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #23 on: April 28, 2005, 02:38:03 AM
Pianoman's suggestion could be weird for a lot of people but truth is (my teacher told me!),there are many pianists and concert artists who practice that way,(with rhythmic changer,accents or altering piece in some way in order to obtain strength).Generally those methods work for few people,and i understand that pianomann1984 can manage that way.

Unfortunately it does not server well for other people.Good for some people bad for many others.Please read my previous post with that correction!.Pianomann1984 wanted to help with his advice.Maybe my first post was a bit strict on him with no reason.Sorry pianoman1984 ok?

Offline pianomann1984

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #24 on: April 28, 2005, 08:30:39 AM
Pianoman's suggestion could be weird for a lot of people but truth is (my teacher told me!),there are many pianists and concert artists who practice that way,(with rhythmic changer,accents or altering piece in some way in order to obtain strength).Generally those methods work for few people,and i understand that pianomann1984 can manage that way.

Unfortunately it does not server well for other people.Good for some people bad for many others.Please read my previous post with that correction!.Pianomann1984 wanted to help with his advice.Maybe my first post was a bit strict on him with no reason.Sorry pianoman1984 ok?

Hehe...ok - Peace :) I recently discovered after a long time of my teacher nagging me over this that Rubenstein himself also practiced like this, but I understand that some practising methods are not for everyone.  It's always worth a try though, even if your discover only by eliminating bad practice methods and narrowing down to the best for you. 

Experimentation is the only way!
"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #25 on: April 28, 2005, 08:55:21 AM
chromatickler - do you have to shout!? >:( 

Ok chill, maybe my teacher told me the wrong person - but it was someone very famous he mentioned like Richter, Horrowitz I did say "apparently" ! 
"Never argue with idiots - first they drag you down to their level, then they beat you with experience."

Offline chromatickler

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #26 on: April 28, 2005, 10:12:35 AM
chromatickler - do you have to shout!? >:(
HAHAHA, quiet

Offline ramseytheii

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #27 on: April 28, 2005, 04:19:55 PM

ramsey - I do think melodically ( I have exactly the sound/legato I want) but speed and stamina need to be addressed separately because I hit a barrier and worked in a problem.  Slower speed practice lets you get away with things that aren't workable at higher speeds no matter how musical you think you are being.

thanks all

That is generally true yes, or rather, that is a truthful possibility.  But ultimately it is a slow practice that will show us a way to the up-to-tempo.  "Fast playing," after all is only a fast version of something.  Schnabel said he didn't know what was like to play fast; because he thought in large groups, and his large groups were moving at the speed of glaciers.

Also the suggestion has been made to make the passage more difficult than it really is.  This is a good idea: we will find that practicing this etude slowly and melodically is much more difficult than playing it fast.  Because to practice slow and melodic can also be thought of as practicing the fast version in slow motion.  The motions are the same, but it is much harder to control at the slower tempo. 

The feeling of playing something melodically is, I am sure we would all agree, the freedoms: the freedom that results from absence of undue tension, the freedom that allows us to inflect and make spontaneous nuance, in other words, to speak, or sing on the piano.  Nobody would disagree with that.  So it is really the focus on melodic playing that will free our bodies, to play something in any way we desire. 

By the way, There is a well-known piano book circulating the internet by C Chang, or Chuang, and I recall it makes the umbrella statement that slow practice at the beginning is bad, because you will learn the "wrong motions," or whatnot.   This is a very pessimistic statement, that you will learn it incorrectly no matter what, and we should take it with a tub of salt, because everyone's experience puts them at a different level, where some know they can transfer slow playing to fast; some know, when practicing slow, what will work at fast tempi and what won't.

Walter Ramsey

Offline SDL

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Re: Stamina in chopin 10.2
Reply #28 on: April 28, 2005, 04:55:26 PM
Hey Walter,

I find the opposite with the slow and melodic.  I can do this no problem - I played to my teacher (concert pianist) slowly legato and melodically cresc, dims about 116 (practice around 108) and he thought it was excellent.  I find I can play this no problem slowly since I started slowly and worked my way up but my problem was speeding it up beyond 120.  Im not obsessed with the speed I dont think but I like it winter wind like.  ie I have a sound in my head Im aiming for which just doesnt cut the mustard at 120.  I tend to practice slow a movement I think Im lacking.  For example.. at 120+ I play the whole 4 bars as one line with micro accents/movements  for momentum, and then I discovered the reason I was getting tired when starting the next 4 bars is because I hadn't got a "relaxing" down movement before starting the next section.  (what goes up must come down!) So it's like playing in one breath because the wrist is still raised and then going in the opposite direction without a downbeat (does that make sense!?)

I read the stuff on Chang and I thought there were some interesting ideas here because I do hit speed barriers, (and incidentally Ive always known about PPI because I may have a few days off and its better than before).  I don't take every method as gospel since Ive learnt that no teacher can really teach you how it feels when you are applying something in the correct way for your hand.  Ive learnt that experimentation is the best way which is why I love to hear about everyone's experiences on this forum!
"Never argue with idiots - first they drag you down to their level, then they beat you with experience."
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