scales one octave beginners

[rlefebvr]

I am having a devil of a time getting a couple of students at an early stage to play scales 2 octaves.

I was once told by a teacher that playing scales one octave is a waste of time.

Problem is they just can't get the fingering no matter how I try. No problem one octave, but a big mess 2 octaves.

So I planning on staying at one octave for now until a later date.

Think this is o.k. or am I just hurting them to get a short term gain.

Ron

[xvimbi]

Check out this list of threads that Bernhard put together. There is a lot of information that might help you: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8110.0.html

Try teaching the scales in chunks (you may have done so already). Point out that there is a chunk of three notes (C major scale: CDE) followed by a chunk of four notes (FGAB), followed by a chunk of three notes again (CDE) and finished off by a chunk of five notes (FGABC). This also teaches them the thumb-over method. Thumb-under is more difficult, because the motions involved are much more complicated, but once they get the pattern, they will probably be able to do thumb-under to connect the chunks just fine. Hope that helps.

[galonia]

When I used to teach really young beginners, I found some were not very good at seeing that the keyboard is really just a repeated pattern.

So the way I'd teach 2-octave scales is to just play one octave, then play the next octave.  Then come down one octave, then come down the other octave.

e.g. for C Major, RH, we start on middle C, and play up one octave using the usual 123, 12345 fingering.  Then we repeat the top C with the thumb, to start the scale all over again up an octave.  Then we repeat the top note with the 5th finger and come down one octave, until we play a C with the thumb.  Then we repeat that C with the 5th finger to start the descent of another octave.

After a while, we remove all the repeated C's and we can now play 2 octaves.

[will]

You may want to try and teach LH ascending and RH descending first. Most seem to find this easier to play because the fingers can easily move over the thumb. If you can get them to do this for 2 octave in one direction then you are halfway there. Hopefully this will boost their confidence and that will help.

Also ask yourself whether these beginners would be better off playing some actual music rather than two octave scales...

[mikeyg]

Also ask yourself whether these beginners would be better off playing some actual music rather than two octave scales...

It's generally believed that scales are very good for you.  I think most teachers, even bernhard maybe, advocate playing sclaes.  It really helps to know the scales before you play the piece.

[rlefebvr]

You may want to try and teach LH ascending and RH descending first. Most seem to find this easier to play because the fingers can easily move over the thumb. If you can get them to do this for 2 octave in one direction then you are halfway there. Hopefully this will boost their confidence and that will help.

Also ask yourself whether these beginners would be better off playing some actual music rather than two octave scales...

Oh, do not worry, they are learning pieces at the same time.

[abell88]

I usually start the young ones with one octave, and move to two later. None has been damaged by it so far.

Alice

[squinchy]

When I started two octave scales, I always had trouble remembering when to cross over what finger on which notes, particularly in my right hand. I found that remembering which note the 4th finger on helped, since I knew that 3rd finger crossings came after those and occured when I ran out of fingers. My teacher was an advocate of some confusing idea about how crossing over the 3rd finger of one hand soon after the other hand did it or something.

Another idea I figured out (eventually; a few months too late) was that you always want to get your hands in the same basic position when striking the tonic. For example, thumbs take care of the C's in C major, at least with traditional fingering. If you're playing B's, it's vital to get the thumbs back on C. [This tends to help when you've messed up some part of the scale's fingering and need to get back on track, particularly on 4 octaves. ]

Hopefully my voice-switching verbose mess made some helpful sense!

[abell88]

If you're using standard fingering, then for C, D, E, etc. you can teach that the Magic number is 3 4 3...that is, thumb under after each of those. Works for descending scales, too -- cross finger 3 over the first time, then 4, then 3.

[possom46]

I taught myself to play when I was younger with a Fanny Waterman book, in there she told you to squish the notes in one go for each finger pattern. e.g. C major scale, 1st 3 notes, CDE fingers 123, play them altogether, then FGAB fingers 1234, play them altogether so you end up with squished chords up both octaves, it helps the fingering first of all, and also helps with playing the notes quickly because you're used to getting there abit sooner 

[SDL]

I agree with possum.  But then practic going from one group to next i.e 3-1 fingers

[pianonut]

dear rlefebvr,

if you are not as concerned about the technique of the scales as the idea of learning the circle of fifths, you can comfortably stay on one octave scales until the whole cycle is learned.

what ages are you teaching?  (not that it matters, it's just adults usually move on to the two octaves sooner)  i taught the scales with the tetrachord pattern for children.  they learned all the key signatures and how to move to the next scale (by 5th's).  i would take their left hand (in C major playing 5432) and place it over the right hand - playing 2345 - and substiting 5432 lh on GABC and when secure about the location, slide the rh out from under.  this sets the student up for playing in the key of G. 

*for remembering sharps, you can put a ring on their rh ring finger to remind them of the sharp.  if you have really young children you can make or buy cheap little rings (or make paper ones) and add a ring for each letter.  the letter G is one continuous line of writing - so one sharp.  the letter D - you have to pick up your pencil and draw two lines - two sharps.  the letter A - three distinct lines= 3 sharps.  E= four lines.  B (written like the greek B) 2 >'s = five lines  (F# and C# you just have to remember)  this really helps 3-7 year olds.

[pianonut]

imo just keeping them playing and enjoying is good.  it builds up dexterity without having to learn lots of fingering at first.  i start doing the tetrachord pattern about two octaves under middle C (or tell them to count 10 notes up from the bass).  when you start here, you can move up by fifths easily.  also, it teaches them that no matter where you play on the keyboard, you don't need to scoot.  to smoothly play from bass to treble sitting in the middle of the bench (and leaning to left or right).

[pianonut]

to learn the flat keys, you can start in the treble instead of the bass and work backwards putting the rh over the left hand (sliding left hand out) starting with the scale of C major.  the left hand in C major would be CDEF - so you would place your rh over the left hand of these notes (using 2345) and then replace the left hand over the appropriate notes. 

to learn quickly (instead of rings - as for sharp keys) you can get some post-it circles and place different colors for different keys (accidentals).  some students liked it when i placed one color on each of the notes of the scale instead of just the accidentals.  so the scale of F would be blue.  the scale of B-flat, green.  etc.

the students get used to playing from treble to bass without scooting on the bench, learning all the flats (and how they fit into the hand). 

[rlefebvr]

Well, these are 8 and 7 year olds.

Have decided to go with one octave scales for now.
After 3 weeks, we are already on the third one also with the chords in the order of the circle of course.

Technique is not perfect of course, but I am hoping that will come fast once they have 4 or more under theirs belts to do everyday.

Also finding pieces to match the scales at the same time, although that will take more time.

They really don't practice enough, but that's another story.

[vera]

You may try contrary motion scales first, the ones where the fingering is symmetrical. And I sometimes make them do it as a zoom-in , zoom-out exercise. What I mean is, play a certain nr of notes of the scale, say four, so that includes the first thumb-under, go back, then go 5 notes and back, then 6 and so on, until you reach the entire 2 octaves. That is a bit like a game too, and they usually like it. Later on, do the same with the similar motion scales. If there is a problem, stay on that "stretch" until they get it.

[pianonut]

glad what you are doing is working.  i have found that sticking with 3-4 scales for a period of time is better than trying to learn them all in a short time.  the different fingerings can be distracting (that's why i like the tetrachord form).

with the tetrachords you can also play simple chords at the end I, IV, V, I - by allowing the thumb of the lh to take the C chord (letting the rh fingers lightly touch keys but in lifted position) then rh lowers and thumb of rh takes the four chord (already set up), and then tell them to move one note over for all notes for the V chord...and lh finishes with I chord.

[pianonut]

that's a great idea, vera!  i would use that to transition to the regular way of playing scales (7-8 year olds).  the tetrachord scale is perfect for little hands, but bigger hands make the other way better to start probably.

[clariniano]

I start teaching scales, chords and arpeggios as soon as possible.

An approach that works really well for learning scales (whether 1 or 2 octave), which I have used with 8 of my private students, and 2 students at the school I am a music teaching assistant at, is the following, which the numbers refer to scale degrees. Each is to be repeated at least 5 times:

Play 1-2-1.
Play 1-2-3-2-1.
Play 1-2-3-4-3-2-1
Play 1-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-1
Play 1-2-3-4-5-6-5-4-3-2-1
Play 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Play 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1

For two octave scales, have each octave done separately, then combine them. Two of my students commented on this approach, which I happened to use in my own scale practicing on the piano one afternoon, made scales really easy (one who said "so easy it's ridiculous" (he is a clarinet student, while he was learning Ab major (not that easy on the clarinet), and another (a piano student) who used to find scales rather difficult, and now plays them quite fluently since trying this approach. (and who, lately, has been playing with a lot more confidence!)

Seems to do wonders for developing a sense of easily crossing the thumb under, precise muscle memory (how many piano students do you know mess up the 3-1 and 4-1 crossings in scales?), and getting used to the tone + semitone gap in the harmonic minor!

Meri

[robert]

I am having a devil of a time getting a couple of students at an early stage to play scales 2 octaves.

The reason is that they don't understand the theory.
Make them learn and understand the following:
- Which finger to start with for each key and hand.
- That you either shift after 3 or 4 played keys, no matter hand or direction so it is just a matter of knowledge which change to start with.

So basically, only two things to keep in mind for each key and for most keys where blacks and whites are combined, one method is by far more natural,

The path to this understanding is a bit individual but Bernard's steps should work for most students.