piano for the frugal

[anony]

This is subjective, so please just give your own personal opinion: what is the minimum amount of money you would spend on a piano if you were starting out today but intend to use the piano for the years to come, and which one would you buy? To put it differently, which pianos do you believe have good value but are reasonably adequate for serious, long-term learning?

[ghostclaws]

That's very broad, can you narrow down your criteria a little bit?
Do you want used or new; upright or grand?
What brands are you thinking of, Chinese, Japanese, American or European?
What's your rough range of budget?

GC

[jr11]

Buy from a shop you can trust (ask other musicians), or bring a technician with you to shop privately. Don't buy an old-timer, as pianos, unlike violins, have a useful life of about 100 years before the workings become brittle, in all but top quality instruments.

Anyway, nominal price for a decent used piano would be about $1800usd, and about $3000usd for a new piano with a 10 year warranty. Stick to Japanese products for used. Grey market pianos are fine, and any Japanese brand is just as good. Avoid Yamaha or Kawai, as the price goes up because the dealer knows they can get more, not because the piano is better. For new, definately go Chinese. They are way less expensive, and just as good qualilty as anything new out of Asia. The time to buy is now... pricing will go up as soon as the public realizes Chinese products are worthy, and that is happening really fast.

Hope this helps

[iumonito]

To the original question.  I owned a digital baldwin for about 6 years before buying my first grand, a 7'4" Irmler I am very happy with.  It was a big jump, but actually my reasoning fits perfectly with your question.

The pianos available for less than $15,000 were simply unacceptable.  So unsatisfactory that I was happy to stay with the digital, which cost me around $1,000 new in 1998, until I found a good instrument.  I ended up spending a "little" more than $15,000 (less than $40K though  , but certainly $15,000 would be the least I would spend for a long term piano.

Since I bought the Irmler, I have learned of two pianos that while not as good as what I got, I probably would have gone for sooner than 6 years and plateau until I could trade them in for a Mason BB.  I have not played these two pianos (I have no need, since I already got mine, although I eventually will, since pianos come in pairs and mine is lonely), so take my comments with a grain of salt.

My option one is a Maestoso, a piano made in Maryland by a company called Pianocraft.  They get a shell from China and do to it a bunch of modifications, so it would be unfair to call this a Chinese piano.   Call them (www.pianocraft.net) and ask about Maestoso.  They better than I to give you details, specs and prices but this I can tell you: the quality of their work is second to none and they will not rip you off.  They also have much better pianos you can grow into.

The second option, of which I am much less sure, is a brand new Knabe.  These pianos are now made by Samick in Indonesia, I believe.  They advertise they follow the original Knabe scales, which if true would make the piano very good from a design point of view.  Execution of the design is always a question, but apparently, unlike most Asian pianos, these are made of hard maple (the rim - that is).  Call Jim Laabs (a store in Michigan) and ask them about Knabe.  I suspect that if I were to get one of these I would need to send it to the shop for preping before taking it home, totally defeating the very competitive price this piano sells for.

And now for my disagreement: I feel buying a grey market piano is like burning money in your fireplace.  The pianos you can get for $3,000 are likely in need of total rebuilding (an operation worth doing in just a handful of instruments).  I have heard of no Japanese worthwhile piano other than Yamaha and Kawai (Kawai light years better IMO).  Yamahas and Kawais, though, are in the same price range with Irmler, a Polish piano designed by Bluthner, that is twice light years better.

Good luck.

[jr11]

And now for my disagreement: I feel buying a grey market piano is like burning money in your fireplace.  The pianos you can get for $3,000 are likely in need of total rebuilding (an operation worth doing in just a handful of instruments).  I have heard of no Japanese worthwhile piano other than Yamaha and Kawai (Kawai light years better IMO).  Yamahas and Kawais, though, are in the same price range with Irmler, a Polish piano designed by Bluthner, that is twice light years better.

I believe you have slightly higher standards than many people! Usually when I field a question like the original poster asked, they are thinking less than $5000, and usually way less. The grey market pianos are consistent, and can be expected to function well with adequate dealer prep. Many Japanese brands are not exported outside Asia until they go to grey market, though they are fine pianos. A piano such as this is good for a student up to about RCM gr8, which is 90% of all players.

If the piano is for a more advanced player with the means to spend more, I think the advice you're giving is very sound.

[Axtremus]

anony,

Based on pianos I have actually played, I'd say 1600 USD.

I think a used piano is the way to go if the budget is really tight. Of all the cheap used pianos I've played to date, the one I remember most fondly is a 1979 Baldwin Hamilton upright I played in a small piano shop (by chance visit) just a few months ago -- asking price was 1600 USD including "local" delivery! I honestly do not know for how many more years that piano would remain serviceable (you hire a technician to help you evaluate such matters), but at the moment I played it, it sounded/performed better than most $5k new uprights I've played. If I am really broke today and must buy an acoustic piano to play/learn on for some reason, that $1600 old Baldwin Hamilton upright would be IT. I tried Chopin Prelude Op.45 and Gershwin Prelude I on it, even the openning "Thema" from Rzewski's variation -- worked fine, not great, but OK. So I'd say one can do at least up to ABRSM Grade 8 on that $1600 upright. Whether or not one is lucky enough to be in the right place and the right time to encounter such a piano is a matter of, well, luck.

My answer to a question very similar to yours, one with which "luck" has much less to do, is linked here: https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,7878.msg79334.html#msg79334

Since I bought the Irmler, I have learned of two pianos that while not as good as what I got, I probably would have gone for sooner than 6 years and plateau until I could trade them in for a Mason BB. I have not played these two pianos ... so take my comments with a grain of salt.

If the piano is for a more advanced player with the means to spend more, I think the advice you're giving is very sound.

The advice would be more sound if the person giving the advice has actually played the pianos he advices on.

(Sorry, iomunito, nothing against you personally; I just have a bit of a "pet peev" against people recommending pianos that they have not played themselves.)

[iumonito]

Fair enough.  I would not recommend them if I had no basis, and I am the first to admit that the advice is to be taken with a grain of salt.

The prices you guys are discussing get you to "this is such a crappy piano I can't believe it" land, in my opinion.  That is also without playing the actual pianos (these I have tested, though ).  Once you cross that limit between acceptable and crappy, I think a sturdy digital is the way to go.  No tuning, easy to move, and cheaper.  they are crappy, but actually not as crappy as some stuff i have seen for sale.

[Axtremus]

Once you cross that limit between acceptable and crappy, I think a sturdy digital is the way to go.  No tuning, easy to move, and cheaper.  they are crappy, but actually not as crappy as some stuff i have seen for sale.

I may draw the line between "acceptable" and "crappy" differently than you do, but in principle I quite agree with your statement about getting a good digital instead of a truly crappy acoustic.

[piano_luvr]

I actually have the same question as the first poster.  I've been tinkering on the piano ever since I was 3 years old, but never really got "REAL" PRIVATE lessons until 3 years ago.  Now, I am ready to be very serious about the piano, and take up my lessons again.  :-)  We already have a piano in our house, but it's an older upright piano.  It was actually my MOM's piano, and it's been through a lot of wear and tear.  I mean, it still plays (of course), but it just wasn't upkept all that well, and it's been through moves to different houses, etc. 

I've been looking for a new piano for about a year now.  My DREAM would be to get a nice (but REASONABLY priced) baby grand piano.  I'm not that picky, and  I'm not really trying to be a virtuoso or anything...just a piano that will play welll, and last long.  I'm a college student (but I DO work) so my budget is TIGHT!  But I could possibly deal with the 5,000-6,000 range if financed. 

Any advice?? Like I said, I'm NOT picky at all, I would just prefer a baby grand piano (we already have an upright) since it looks nice, has a better sound, and to tell you the truth, any NEW piano would probably be BETTER than the older piano we have in our house now.  If I can find a good deal, maybe I can convince my mom to help me out.  :-)  Any suggestions??

[anony]

For new, definately go Chinese. They are way less expensive, and just as good qualilty as anything new out of Asia.

How does everyone feel about new Chinese pianos: do they offer more value for the dollar?

I may draw the line between "acceptable" and "crappy" differently than you do, but in principle I quite agree with your statement about getting a good digital instead of a truly crappy acoustic.

I am interested in getting a controler with weighted actions. Does anyone have opinions on which models have more or less piano-like actions? I found few models with simulation for the escapement mechanism, only the Roland HP-7 and discontinued models. I am thinking about the Yamaha P60 and Roland RD-300SX, feedbacks are welcome.

Also, does anyone have experience with digital music creation? I currently use a basic keyboard with Kontakt 2 and am trying to use Cubase SX but there are severe latency issues, presumably due to ASIO and computing power issues.

[Glyptodont]

We have a Howard grand, marketed by Baldwin in the 1990 time frame. It is 171 cm size, about 5'8".   I am very happy with it.  We paid about $7500 at a time when a name piano of the same size, like a Yamaha grand, was about twice the price.  We bought it new.

I am very happy with it.  It was built on contract by Baldwin with Samick, and has at least some Baldwin parts.  We understand it has a German Schwander action.

We had some problems with sticking keys and the warranty covered everything.  They really backed it up.  The warranty was very good, and the dealer very honest.

Right now, I play it a lot, 15 years later, and am pretty happy with it.

As one critic wrote about a cheaper grand, "I could recommend it as a family piano with intermittent use, but if you practice Rachmaninoff concertos for 6 hours a day, it is not for you."