So, on measure 54 (32 on printout - which excludes repeats) I have been working on that set of 32nd notes by playing the lower notes simultaneous with the G - attempting to simulate fast play (with a loose wrist). Then I've been separating them by pretending the lower notes are almost like grace notes to the G's. Is this correct? Also, Chang mentions using both the 1st and the 2nd finger as the optimum way to play this series. Could anyone elaborate on that? I have been using the thumb until D then switching to the second finger and going thumb under to onto G (haven't gotten to thumb over yet) and then getting all confused (fetching ).
Once again xvimbi, thank you for your help. (If you don't mind my asking, is xvimbi meaningful in some way that I am ignorant of?)
When you say that I can work this part out slowly first, you mean that this particular passage doesn't play any differently fast or slow (ie, your body movements don't need to change, they have the same form at any speed)?
Steady rhythm, ha! I laugh. I guess I could keep it steady over one measure!
Yes, it does have a meaning, but only insiders would know.
Not quite. I meant, work it out at fast speed, then play it in slow motion. The problem is, though, you need to make sure you know what the motions should be at high tempo. Your teacher needs to show you. Then speed up over time, whereby the emphasis must be on complete control over every note. Make sure your body is free of unnecessary tension before you get faster. Take measure 27 again (LH). This measure will probably require some time to bceome completely comfortable. I can tell you more about it if you want to. Everything else should be fairly straightforward. One more thing: a section that sounds legato at high speed will not sound legato when done with slow motions. Try to get used to that. Don't try to connect notes, which will require lingering in the keybed and, often, reaching for the next note, which will result in tension and joint issues.
I would like to mildly insist on this, though. I know it is tough, and it requires a lot of discipline. It is tempting to play fast a measure that one can do easily, followed by playing slowly a measure one is having problems with. However, this is a very bad habit. In the long run, it pays off to play the whole shabang at the fastest, steady tempo, no matter how slow this ends up being. There is no problem working on small chunks at different tempi, but when you play an entire section, play it in one tempo and try to be rhythmically correct. Actually, make correct rhythm a top priority. So many problems resolve automatically once you've mastered the rhythm.
Love to hear what you'd have to say.
Yes, I've kind of realized that I can't legato it in the usual way. I wonder if all really fast phrases are played "legato" because the extra motion to staccato them can't be done?
I don't have a good, intuitive feeling for how fast that is. As a result, I am just playing everything (here, at least) as fast as I can. I listen to the music, and attempt to approximate it.
Also, I think that maybe my "chord to pseudo grace note" method is resulting in your arm rotation method. I end up with a petting-the-dog sort of movement (imagine a dog standing in profile, head to the right: start the stroke at the head when play the thumb, slide down the neck and start lift to go back towards the head to play the pinkie; repeat). My thumb leads the rotation doing a clockwise circle to get up to the next note, and my pinkie stabilizes the back of the hand on the G. Yes? Maybe I will videotape my hands on this (but don't hold your breath seeing as how I spent about 1/2 hour trying to get the silly music piece in here....couldn't find any links that were relevent!). In the not too distant future we will video conference about this and all these wordy explanations will seem archaic! (Better start working on my situps!)
Well, you have been very patient with me xvimbi (I say that "x-vimbee" but perhaps I should be saying "16 maybe I" Thank you for your insights. Others are free to join in.
Well, let me ask you first whether you are having difficulties with this measure in the first place.
I'm not quite sure. It's more like the following: Put your right hand on a table. Now, rotate your forearm such that the hand pivots around the pinky, thus lifting all other fingers off the surface. Now, reverse the motion, until the thumb hits the surface. Keep on going in the same direction, i.e. the hand now pivots around the thumb. Do this "rocking" motion back and forth. This is forearm rotation. There is no lateral translation of the hand involved, as in your petting example (if I understood correctly). The interval between the pinky and the thumb is then controlled by stretching the hand more or less.
My, it's pronounced "x-fimbee", of course
I have not worked on it a great deal...I could be contending with the 32nd notes for a bit. But the teeny bit I have worked on it was just trying to play all the notes simultaneously at speed (or there abouts ....are you recommending a metronome?).
And I'm trying not to rock, but to circle, because of that agonist antagonist stuff (or something like that), right?
Shouldn't your name be spelled "xfimbi" then?
Have you worked out the motions? If so, what do you use?
Concerning metronome, I would recommend using a metronome if you have problems keeping the correct rhythm without a metronome. When you are working HS on that section, you will either have to count (aloud) or use a metronome.
I think you could live with the agonist/antagonist motions. The muscles that drive the forearm rotations are in the upper arm. I wouldn't worry about it unless you feel tension there after repeatedly playing this section (do you feel tension?). Make sure your shoulder is not raised. In a fast passage like that, one can get excited easily and start raising the shoulders, tensing the neck, clenching the jaws and/or breathing irregularly. Pay attention to those things. Also, make sure your upper arm, wrist and hand are inactive. The forearm is active, and the fingers are slightly active. Initially, you may indeed have to add some lateral motion to play the octave interval (depending on how large your hand is). If it is fairly small, add that lateral motion ("pet the dog"); don't reach for the lower note by stretching your hand.
Most certainly not. There are some languages where the "v" is pronounced like the English "f"
I am just using chord attack I guess it is called. Playing all notes at once.
I don't think you recommend doing the metronome at the 1/32nd note speed, do you? I guess I am thinking you would use them over groups of notes. I haven't really put the notes together well enough to attain full speed yet. Shouldn't I work within my abilities to play it (somewhat near) correctly?
Stretching your hand is bad? I do try to stay relaxed. Although sometimes I'm sure it's hard to when my focus is so stressed.
I am so provincial . Enlighten me please? I know "v" sound at least is in English, Spanish, Russian (no "v" shape that I can recall), French....
Does that mean you are playing all four notes (F,G,B#,E) at once? I am not sure if that’s the best way to go about it. Chord attack is useful, but it does not apply to any situation. In other words, don’t just go through the piece and learn everything using the chord attack. In places where the notes are fairly far apart, using the chord attack will likely result in a stretched, tense hand. Chord attack is really good for short scale fragments and similar situations where the notes are close together. Also, you will have to change your motions quite drastically when you abandon the chord attack in this measure. Might just as well start working on those motions right away.
You should always stay within your abilities. That’s what I mentioned earlier. Practice the chunks at speed if you want, but when you put them together you will have to play at one speed, which is the speed of the slowest chunk in the set.
I’m not sure I understand your question about the metronome. I guess you are referring to the speed in the recording you have and which you may consider “final speed”. No, I don’t recommend that, for several reasons. One of them is that you need to practice not only the chunks but also the transitions between the chunks. But when you put everything together, your brain will initially need some time to recall what the next note is going to be. Your “brain speed” is what will limit your playing speed. One can’t achieve full brain speed right away. That’s one of the reasons why slow-motion practice is still extremely important.
Rather, add a lateral motion to move your hand back and forth. One of the most common bad habits is “reaching”. Say, you have to play G with your thumb followed by a B an octave higher. In order to achieve a legato effect, one would be tempted to dwell on the G and stretch as much as possible to reach the B with the pinky. This is very bad, and if you observe yourself, I am convinced you will find that you are doing this all over the place.
Keep on guessing BTW, “v” in Spanish is pronounced more like “b” in English.
Also, xvimbi (or others), what is the best way to play the measure you asked about F, G, Bflat, E measure 27? Do you "leap" between the the lower set (FGBflat on 543 and E on 1)?
And (I hope I'm not asking too much) on measure 33, should the fingering from C be 54321, middle finger over so 3, 2, ...?