Boulez Sonatas

[Skeptopotamus]

I have listened to all three of Boulez's Piano Sonatas, and have listened to/see the sheets for his 12 Pieces.  I have a bit of experience with music in this genre (Berg Sonata, Schoenberg 6 short pieces, Nancarrow Tango, dealt with the Nancarrow Sonatine and im able to read Herma) and I know how difficult the third sonata is supposed to be, and the second doesnt sound much easier, but the first is a bit less dense and considerably shorter, and I'd really like to at least attempt it.  If anyone can direct me towards the sheet music for any of the three sonatas i'd be ever so greatful ^^

[steinwayguy]

I love the second movement of the first sonata. And I can't exactly say I love Boulez too often... It seems very approachable, and a friend who has played the second sonata says that the first is easier than Hammerklavier, so, go for it, definitely! I couldn't tell you where the sheet music is online, but if you really need it I can get it out of the library and scan it.

[Skeptopotamus]

kind of going a bit off topic, but can anyone recommend any music in the genre of Xenakis, Boulez, Schoenberg and Webern that is maybe less well-known?    because it really fascinates me and i want to get really deep into it so eventually i might be able to play Herma or the Boulez Sonata 3...... VERY eventually that is ><

[Lance Morrison]

out of the three Boulez Sonatas, I think the third is my favourite. I love the first two movements of the second, but the last two leave me underwhelmed....yet perhaps it has something to do with the recording i have, the one on naxos by idil biret. I really do not hear though what would be so unbelievably difficult to play about the two published movements of third sonata, though the score is in fact rather expensive,,,. And really, Pierre---publish the remaining three movements please, so you can at least complete one more masterpiece in your lifetime

(sorry I can't be of help)

[Skeptopotamus]

i am confused.  i have a recording of the complete Third Sonata- 5 movements right?  cause i have 5 movements of the third sonata.  am i special?  anyways i will gladly send it to you if you'd like.  i dont remember who the pianist is but i can look it up easily when i get back on my own computer which will be in a couple days; the same time i can send you the complete third sonata.


oh by the way......  O.O


i totally lucked out and ran into a MIDI of the second sonata, and with Midinotate on this computer i can see the sheets basically.  and um.... i also had a problem HEARING the difficulty in these pieces, but i knew they were difficult from what i had heard from people talking on here and other places.



the second sonata is literally as difficult as if you improvised as difficult a piece as possible.  it would be like that almost, seriously.  and the third sonata is supposed to be much MUCH MUCH MUCH more difficult.  if you have seen the sheets to Herma, the second sonata is at a higher level of difficulty for 30 minutes solid.  so i am totally terrified of what the third sonata will be like.



but yes i have a recording of 5 movements of the third sonata- runs about 30 minutes altogether.




trust me, when i say that boulez in total honesty and without exaggerating is more difficult that sorabji ABSOLUTELY if we do not factor the length of sorabji's music.  i had NO idea what these pieces would be like, and i am suddenly turned off a bit from trying to play the first O.O



if it's easier than the hammerklavier then sure i can do it, but i dont know.  Boulez is a psycho in my book.




and tell your friend who plays the boulez sonata 2 that i will grovel at his feet.




anyways..... this may seem like an odd question, but could someone give me like a timeline of this type of music leading up to the Boulez Sonata No. 3?


like


Schoenberg 6 short pieces
Berg Sonata
Boulez sonata No. 1
Xenakis Herma
Boulez Sonata No. 2
Boulez sonata no. 3



cept obviously much more indepth.  and i still need sheets to all three boulez sonatas anyone who can get em.  i will trade for the recording of the whole sonata, assuming that is a rarity.  or just give it to me cause ill be your friend forever ^^


lix n hugs

[Lance Morrison]

o-k.......you actually only have two movements of sonata #3, believe me. you see, when it was written, composers were becoming interested in different things like indeterminancy and what freedom a performer should have over a piece of music. in addition, Boulez had become inspired by Mallarmé to write a work that was in constant revision, never to be completed. So, he wrote the sonata #3. He decided that it would be in five movements; two have been published, while the other two are works in progress which have been performed only by the composer. One of these is "Trope", and this you have perceived as four movements, but it is really just one movement which contains four sections ("Texte," "Parenthèse," "Commentaire," and "Glose.") which can be played in a variety of different orders, the score being published in a spiral notebook. this is Boulez attempting to experiment with these new ideas, but I don't believe this concept is carried out too well. Yet, the music does happen to be wonderful. as for the other published movement, "Constellation-Miroir", i'll directly quote allmusic.com:

The sheet music of "Constellation-Miroir" consists of nine large sheets in six "constellations" — three of "Points" (structures concentrating on single notes, printed in green), two of "Blocs" (structures based on chords and arpeggios, printed in red), and a short "Mélange" (featuring both single notes and chords). "Constellation-Miroir" would normally be played in the order "Mélange" - "Points 3" - "Blocs II" - "Points 2" - "Blocs I" - "Points 1," as opposed to an unpublished version of the movement which is played in reverse order. Elements within each of the six sections can be arranged in several different ways. Boulez likens the structure to a map of an unknown city in which the performer "must direct himself through a tight network of routes." The music of "Constellation-Miroir" alternates between spare, delicate passages and more assertive, granitic sections; it is a remote and enigmatic movement, with considerable space between its gestures.

i would LOVE LOVE LOVE to hear a midi of the second sonate!!!

as for your requested timeline..........hmmm. well I'm not sure I am knowledgable enough to construct one, though I would like to be. i'll just say that a lot of modernism begins with Schönberg's 3 piano pieces of 1909. Here he begins to use some of the new ideas he was formulating and developing, especially in coordination with Webern. He continues the style of unusual concentration and sparse gestures which he had began in his Book of the Hanging Gardens song cycle earlier in the year. In the third movement, he explores completely new territory emotionally with the somewhat terrifying writing, which happens to also be athematic. While Schönberg at this time was going in several different directions musically, Webern was mostly concerned with concentration of expression, and he explored this to greater lengths than his mentor. Schönberg was greatly impressed by his young friend's early discoveries, and in 1911 wrote his six little piano pieces with concentration comparable to Webern, in my opinion in a sort of tribute. the last piece, which many interpret to be the funeral bells of Mahler, is especially distilled in expression. Schönberg's piano works after this in my opinion have nothing in them especially new or noteworthy, other than the introduction of serialism. When Webern got around to writing his own piano work, his Variations of 1936, he had long since absorbed the system of serialism and adapted it to his own style, and the result of his veterancy is a masterpiece. From here--my knowledge grows vague, though I can assuredly say that the thread from Webern was not picked up until postwar, by Stockhausen, Boulez, and others. They developed their early advanced systems of serialism, while meanwhile Babbit, more inspired by Schönberg I believe, did the same in America. I can't really tell you the works of these composers unfortunately, as my knowledge is limited.

Of course, there were other continuums of modernist thought than the ones I mentioned, and many of these composers produced fine piano works. I am most fond of Charles Ives, though I prefer his songs and his orchestral works much over his famous piano work, the "Concord" Piano Sonata #2

take care, enjoy life and music

[Skeptopotamus]

no no not that kind of timeline ^^


i meant like a progression of pieces i should play to get my skills in the style to the degree that i would be able to play the boulez sonata No. 3.    like easy ------> sonata no 3.


and the midi of the second sonata.......


https://www.kt.rim.or.jp/~moclin/index-e.html


the composer has quite a few improvisations at the bottom of the screen- some of which are really incredible.

[Lance Morrison]

  agggghhh sorry i am an idiot

[Skeptopotamus]

yeah, but you're still cute ^^


lix lix lix

[steinwayguy]

Heh, a midi is about the only way you could get a truly 100% accurate rendition of that piece 

[markatticus]

I would say look at (learn) Messiaen's Quatre Etudes de Rythme, Stockhausen's Klavierstucke I-IV, Boulez's first sonata, and then think about looking at the third movement of the 2nd. Or maybe the Tropes section of the third - I don't think it's an awful lot more challenging than the 2nd, maybe even easier in some respects.

[Lance Morrison]

sounds like a good recommendation markatticus!

[iumonito]

I am so glad to see I am not the only nerd in the planet.

Has anyone mentioned Pollini's recording of the second sonata?  I like it much better than Charles Rosen's (the only other recording I have listened too with any attention).