Gaspard de la Nuit: Ondine

[thorn]

If anyone has played this piece before, I need advice. I'm completely bemused by the 'un peu plus lent' section after where it splits into three staves. I find fitting the sixes and sevens together really awkward- at the moment i'm just trying to play that part without thinking if that makes sense- yet it sounds a frantic mess.

Also- can anyone help me with the fingerings on the last page:

https://muslib.mmv.ru/piano/ravel_gaspar1.pdf

(this edition is different to others- but i'm referring to the top line of page 16)

[maxy]

You should ask Koji

[SDL]

yes I did this for an exam and concert a couple of times about 10 years ago.  You have to split the 7 & 6 up to its lowest common denominator like 2s against 3s or 3s against 4s, because you also have 6s against 5s as well.  I dont have the score with me so I can't help with the fingering at the moment since Im at work

[SDL]

Oh something really important Thorn...

this copy on the web looks like Durand edition.  I used to have this edition when learning it then I auditioned at the Royal Northern College of Music for a professional performance course and one of my interviewers advised me to get the latest revised edition by Roger Nicols because there are mistakes in the durand version.  For example the opening rhythmic figures change direction in the durand but this has been corrected - bar 6 looks sucpiciously like one Im talking about.

Un peu plus lent - a little slower.  This section is the climax so hold the tension by drawing it out a little (not rubato without giving back somewhere though).  So the beginning of this is like getting a cog going and then going with the flow afterwards on the descent.  You could imagine the chordal bit before hand is you trying to get up a hill on a bike, as soon as you reach the top and gain momentum go with it.

hope that helps

[thorn]

You should ask Koji

ask who??? (sorry i'm new)

[SDL]

Ok thorn I got your message but I'll post here for anyone else having problems with these rhythms.  Ill describe 2 methods of doing this and then you can choose:

  1)   I personally did this.  I play 7s over and over again in the space of 1 (in this piece its 1 quaver)

[SDL]

geez - Ive just lost another window - if you press space it disappears sometimes!

Ill continue again below:
Now I think this is a quick"ish" and dirty way but requires some natural ability to be able to do 2 different things at once and may not be for everyone.  But this is what I did/do:

1) tap on a table the 6s and 7s indivually over and over in the space of 1 beat with each hand separately so you get the feel of it without worrying about the notes.  Then with the RH tap the 7s until its automatic then bring in the 6s (LH) and think of the 6s, it may take a few goes or so and you really have to remove yourself a little (ie not concentrate on one hand too much and be aware of the other hand - like osmosis - background music.  Once you have done this you begin to hear they rhythm tapped out and maybe you can relate it to some words or rhythm you know.  When you are certain you know the rhythm you then put the notes in.  You will have to cycle each hand separately with fingerings/movements so you are not thinking about it - until its automatic.  It would help if you had an electric keyboard so you can hear the rhythm tapping and not the individual sounds.  You need to try together then but fairly slow - not too slow that you lose a sense of the rhythm though.  Do the same for the other polyrhythms (7s against 5s etc...)

2)Ill continue the second method in the next post before I loose all this  (to be continued...)

[SDL]

(continued from above...)

2) I devised a way to do this on a practical level if you can't get the hang of the first method. 


This is a ruler just to show a continous flow of counting:

                  1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

7s in the RH and 6s in the LH to start with.  So because we are tapping 6s against 7s/7s against 6s, we mark the RH (7s) and count to 6 and mark on 7 (every 6 numbers), and for the LH 6s we count to 7 and mark on 1 as shown below (every 7numbers).  L and R indicate the hand you tap with at that point in time on the ruler:


                   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 1 2
7s               R                R                R                 R                R                R                R
6s               L                    L                   L                   L                    L                   L


I think this is slow because at first you will be counting and it will slow you down.  You can devise the same for other polyrythms.

I devised this and wondered whether it was logically correct.  Then I saw this site on 3s and 4s and look to be similar and was pretty please with myself because Im not at all mathematical even though Im an IT consultant/programmer  as a second career to music of course 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyrhythm

please let me know if this helps!!

[SDL]

oh its not aligned properly: 
L= 6s R= 7s
but write it out  on paper to a numeric ruler: L (count to 7, mark on next number L)
                                           R (count to 6, mark on next number R)


   

[ramseytheii]

oh its not aligned properly: 
L= 6s R= 7s
but write it out  on paper to a numeric ruler: L (count to 7, mark on next number L)
                                           R (count to 6, mark on next number R)


   

I think those posts have impressive ideas and you clearly put a lot of thought into this passage.
I would personally suggest smething simpler, and that is just to learn each hand separately,and in time,  obviously focussing on the eight notes in the right hand, and the bass in the left, and then combining them.  You may find that it is not a mathetical matter, but rather one hand rushes forward while another holds back, and vice versa, like waves.  One rushes in, recedes, while the other is right on its tail.
Also you will find that each hand taken separately, is not difficult to figure out, which is always a helpful discovery.

Walter Ramsey

[SDL]

I think those posts have impressive ideas and you clearly put a lot of thought into this passage.
I would personally suggest smething simpler, and that is just to learn each hand separately,and in time,  obviously focussing on the eight notes in the right hand, and the bass in the left, and then combining them.  You may find that it is not a mathetical matter, but rather one hand rushes forward while another holds back, and vice versa, like waves.  One rushes in, recedes, while the other is right on its tail.
Also you will find that each hand taken separately, is not difficult to figure out, which is always a helpful discovery.

Walter Ramsey

Admittedly Walter I prefer my first method because I can do it naturally but I just thought Id post some practical instruction as a last resort.  I see what you are saying with your wave analogy but as an ex-piano teacher I had to come up with a tangible plan - dot the i's and t's - so to speak. 

bonne chance!