Bringing a student to tears

[Jo]

What's your stand on bringing a student to tears? Personally I don't like it. I think it's cruel. It takes the fun and enjoyment out of lessons and quite frankly has the chance of making the student want to quit.

I'm interested in the argument for doing it though. What's your stance??

[jeff]

seems like a nasty idea to me. but then again, different students need to be dealt with in different ways.. but, generally, i would feel that a student crying would be an indication of the teacher going too far.

what kind of arguments are there for doing it?

[Chiyo]

I think this helps when you teach VERY advanced students. Like if you're teaching Chopin etudes or something...  

[Jo]

What about children and teens who already have enough school work to keep them busy which is the category that most of the teary candidates I've seen fall in to.

[chopiszte]

My teacher makes me feel like I'm coming to tears sometimes, never have come to tears and I don't think she intends for it to happen. I don't know if I would be so affected if I wasn't so awed by her skill and I didn't have, as a result, such a strong desire to please her.  At any rate, this doesn't make me dislike her or music or piano.

[george]

there should be no crying in piano!!!....i've seen when there is a lack of communication and inconsistancy on what is expected from students there may be tears...maybe i'm not understanding but should there really be crying for effectiveness?

[julibug]

If I ever bring a student to tears, I will pack my bags and go on a very long vacation!  I am probably the most laid back piano teacher you will ever meet, but I have the greatest students.  If one of them is slacking, I just talk to them about it.  We work on it together.  I don't want my students to hate their lessons, or to hate playing the piano.  Music is fun, and if I can't have fun with my students, I need to quit teaching.

[NetherMagic]

When I was a kid I was brought to tears by my piano teacher.  He was good, it's just that I don't understand him.  I believe that students should never be brought to tears as they (like I had) will most likely develop a kind a fear/negative attitude toward the classroom and maybe even piano itself.  If you bring the student to tears, see if theres some communication difficulties goin on I'd say =]

[ericnolte]

Hello all,

  When I reduce my own children to tears, in the normal course of life, I generally take this to be a sign of my own failure in some aspect of parenting, unless I am intervening in something where time is urgent, and I am leaping into action to save them from imminent destruction, e.g. screaming at them to get out of the street when a car is bearing down on them at high speed and close range.  Otherwise, reason should prevail.  

  Reducing a child to tears is often the insignia of some authoritarian bastard who enjoys having people under his thumb, who revels in the dubious pleasure of making others squirm.  I, for one, condemn any such practice.

  I ask you, what is the purpose of teaching music?

  If you've read any of my posts on my survey of good pianists, you will know that I believe kids need a lot of encouragement and nurturing to stick with music for long enough to cross that magical threshold where this activity becomes self-sustaining.  It's very hard to get kids to persist at anything of daunting complexity, such as music.

  What is the purpose of learning music?  I believe the world is made a better, more peaceful place when people become enchanted by music.  It is a good thing when we can help others decide to stick with music long enough to open the door to this exalted realm, this little "parallel universe," which is music.  The magic words that open the door to this alternate universe work only when students get good enough to feel that incomparable thrill that comes with a high level of performance.  Anything that gets them to stick with it long enough to cross that delightful threshold makes the world a better place.  They won't stick with it if they don't feel thrilled.  Kids crave such excitement as comes from being able to play well.  So do adults.

  Now, it may be that some otherwise benevolent souls think that reducing a child to tears may get the student to stick with the program long enough to cross this threshold to the exalted.  The violinist Isaac Stern, among others, credits an overbearing mother for getting him to stick with it long enough for music's allure to become self-sustaining.  

  So it might be tempting to believe that the good end justifies the means.  I would argue that Isaac Stern's mother would have done even better if she had found a more peaceful means to encourage her son to stick with it.  I would argue that the end never justifies the means.

  I will argue that reducing a child to tears, ON PURPOSE, is wrong.  I will also argue that such tactics are counterproductive.  More often than not, such authoritarian tactics will turn a child away from music, to cement a hatred of it, not to engender a self-sustaining love of music.

Best regards,

Eric Nolte

[Ktari]

Heh, wow I may be an absolutely uncompassionate git then, but I think in some cases it can be positive. I don't know what teaching styles you guys all use, but I'm Chinese (so sorry to sterotype, but I'm bashing myself here) and I had a Chinese teacher at first, they have a different style (I think Russians are also more strict) they DO teach by fear, if you don't practice, they will yell at you, etc etc. I was brought to tears several times in my early learning (first time at age 7, until maybe 10) -once my mom took me out of the lesson, but really I didn't mind each time, because it just motivated me to work harder, and while I switched teachers and have never been driven to tears by my current one (maybe i'm just older)  I have tons of gratitude towards the first one for pushing me that way. I also know several other students who began with her, and (this is second hand) one guy cried after every single lesson, but he improved really quickly and now he's really good and enjoys piano a lot! On the account of being nice, between these two teachers (the chinese one and the current one) I had one teacher that was EXTREMELY nice but also EXTREMELY taught me absolutely nothing!!! She was too easy on me, I felt. She would barely criticize, which is the key to improvement, and called 1/2 hour of practice "a lot". My younger brother also began with a soft teacher, (with a nice teacher there has to be self motivation) and he's doing really badly because he wouldn't work hard himself and the teacher didn't make him
this is getting long and rambly, but anyway i have to disagree with most of this thread
P.S. sometimes I would cry because she would yell at me, but more often I would cry out of frustration at myself for not being able to play something to her standard -and I don't blame her for setting high standards! I think that's good

hehe, enough arguments for crying?

[pianomagic]

Hi everyone!

I would never intentionally bring a student to tears, but students will naturally come to tears once in a great while over the frustration of life or the difficulty of piano, if they feel comfortable with the teacher.  I know I've had a family who cried almost every lesson when they were in fourth-fifth grade, just dealing with all the hormonal changes and stresses of school, though that was during the "How was your day?" part of the lesson, and not during our piano work.

Still, a tear tells you where the student is.  I have one extraordinarily talented student who claims everything is hard, and yet comes back every lesson playing it brilliantly.  He LOVES to play the piano, but still, he is easily overwhelmed by the slightest challenge.

So sometimes he'll get tears in his eyes, and then I get rather dramatic about hiding most of the music from our brain, so we're only thinking about a small, manageable portion of the music at a time.  It's not so overwhelming to learn one hand, two measures, as it is to learn a whole piece!  And so I cut little pieces of paper and tape it all over the music until it's all covered up except for a little bite-sized portion, then he practices that.  

By the end, he's giggling, and I hope he's learned something, too.  

When I first started teaching, I used to feel TERRIBLE when a student started crying.  But you grow accustomed to it, and you can use that moment to sit down and have an intimate chat, and then give guidance or reassurance that will prevent those problems or feelings later.  AND hopefully you've helped them grow up, just a little!

[MusicMom]

pianomagic,

Thank you so much for that last post.  I was reading this topic and feeling awful for having students cry at my lessons, I never would intentionally make them cry , but it happens sometimes, especially if they haven't practiced   and you have them play the same song again for the fourth week.   Anyway, I just wanted to thank you for acknowleding the fact that is does happen.

[Jo]

Lovely posts. As the original poster, I just wanted to make clear what I meant about crying. The whole frustration and being upset with yourself isn't what I was talking about, but when a teacher stands over their student and berates them for not being good enough - that 'cruel to be kind' thing that some people have.

I sometimes actually like it when students get a little teary when it's come purely from them. It shows me they are emotional and serious about what they do.

I truly believe that the majority of teachers would never intentionally make a student cry, but there are those who use it as a motivational tool.

[Roastie_FC]

what about tears of happiness?

For the love of the music!!!!!

[brotherben]

There are two different ways a student can be brought to tears.  1) The teacher can be so strick that it makes the student upset or 2) The student has issues at home.  I have dealt with a student who has cried; however, it was because she had personal problems at home.  I listened to her talk, and we developed a great bond.  I feel very sorry for students who have teachers that bring them to tears.  That's not our job.  Our job is to teach students how to play the piano, and much more.  There isn't one teacher that can't tell me they don't build relationships with their students.  It's the plus side of teaching.

Personally, I feel it's wrong to bring a student to tears, and I will do everything in my power to make sure it never happens.  I will never give up on a student nor will I make them cry.  Plain and simple as that!!!

Take care,
Ben

[xenon]

Hmm... that's true that crying is not a good thing teachers are to do to students, but what if this student completely neglected some responsibility that the teacher was after him/her for weeks?  Out of frusteration, the teacher might be more upset, and the crying would be out of the deliquency of the studnet.

However, I do understand that it is not really that appropriate to bring a student to tears.  

I don't want to sound cold-blooded (even though I am probably an amphibian), but that is just my view on some extreme circumstance.

Xenon

[Hmoll]

It is completely unprofessional for a teacher to berate a student to the point that they come to tears. There are a lot of ways to communicate in a direct manner with a student that they are or are not working hard or practicing enough. One way is to have a clearly set studio policy, such as consistent unpreparedness results in expulsion from the studio.  There are other ways, as well, such as discussing the student's progress in relation to your expectations in a calm manner. The student will get the message without any yelling or histrionics from the teacher.

A piano teacher may certainly communicate his/her love for music in an emotional manner   to students, but negative feedback should not be given in an emotional manner. That reflects poorly on the teacher, makes them look like they do not have control, and is detrimental to the student.

[TwinkleFingers]

whenever I play the piano in front of my aunt, she always cries.  I think its just because she cant handle the disasterous noise!!LOL
I think some students are just very emotional and maybe the teacher didnt even mean to go that far with them.  I cant speak for a ll teachers. some of them must be piano pricks.

[BoliverAllmon]

Crying sometimes happens. My friend started with a real soft teacher that basically would only talk to him for 30 min. and very little playing would be accomplished. when his grandmother finally had enough of paying for a social visit, he started taking lessons from my current teacher. Well, she is alot more strict than the previous teacher. She isn't mean and doesn't yell, but when you know that you screwed up by not preparing yourself for the lesson, you feel like your heart will explode. My friend is so unmotivated to practice and my teacher talks to him about it all the time, that he is now afraid of the teacher and wants to go back to the social visit piano teacher. I don't think the teacher should intentionally go out to make the student cry, but sometimes you have to put your foot down.

boliver

[xenon]

Ah, my point exactly. I don't mean to be a monster or anything.

[Joannetmj]

I had 2 teachers before, now with my 3rd one. My 1st one was great, but big problem. She didn't teach me to count, just told me to hold long for this and that. Anyway she was my teacher for 2-3 years, then decided to leave my music centre to start teaching at home. Now my 3rd teacher is struggling with my timing. But anyhow I'm learning.

My 2nd teacher was terrible... she made me shed a few drops of tears before. I remember it clearly. I was about 7-8 years old, and she asked me to memorise all the rests. The next lesson, she tested me and I remembered all but one. She started scolding me, saying "I asked you to memorise but you didn't! You think I'm playing a fool?!" Well... any young kid would have felt scared when your teacher starts yelling at you(I was standing up and she was sitting down, she didn't even ask me to sit down when testing me). First thing she taught me was to say "Good evening and thank you TEACHER". When I said thank you, she said "thank you what? The piano?" And the fact that she'll scold me everytime I made mistakes in my playing and accused me of not practicing made me really upset. In fact, I FAILED my grade 3 exam that year. It was a really good thing I changed teacher because with all these combined, I nearly quit piano class altogether. Only thing that kept me going was to pleased my parents because my elder brother had already quit piano class.

All those factors probably started my dreading of piano class. Everytime before my piano class, I'll have a dreaded feeling. It's a good thing that teacher only stayed for about 1 year before changing music centre.

Now my 3rd teacher is great, she's been teaching me for about 2 or 3 years already. She discovered that I really didn't know how to count properly and always wrote the counts on the book... but old habits die hard after all. Only recently I could count without her help. But until a 2 months back, I'd still been feeling that dreaded feeling. Guess bad experiences does that to you. Finally about 2 months back I realised that I had nothing to be afraid of and started looking forward to piano class.

Happy ending right?