A question to Sightreaders

[i_m_robot]

to those sightreaders who have started from basically scratch

self would like to know how long it took you all to reach a level you were satified with?

self can only read the kitty stuff

would like to get an approximation of how long it takes to go further

[thierry13]

It really depends on the person.

[Derek]

About a year ago, if I wanted to learn this Scarlatti Sonata (K35) in G minor, I would have had to count down the staves and slowly figure out each note and work on each bar individually. It would have been very frustrating.

Now, I was able to read through the piece at a recognizable tempo the first time, and after about 10 more reads I was able to play the piece reasonably at tempo (not perfectly yet).  And it wasn't even frustrating.

The way I got here from just a year of practice (and not even that hard practice, I might add) was to use

Lorina Havill's "You Can Sight Read." by Theodore Presser publishers.

I also had a piano teacher from whom I was receiving credit at a university (as a non major piano student).


The great thing about the book is it focuses on interval, rather than pitch reading. It encourages you to transpose little pieces, and to try to look at the keyboard as little as possible.

All these principles have helped me build far better reading skill than I've had in the past, and I keep getting better each day! (in almost noticable increments!)  Once you get the "process" down from Havill, it builds upon itself.

Whatever you do, get out of the habit of decoding pitch by pitch. You will remain a slow reader as long as you have this habit.

[i_m_robot]

It really depends on the person.

self would still like to know, please

[bernhard]

If self is doing everything right (e.g. following the principles of the book mentioned above, or Howard Richmann's "Super-sight reading secrets"), and if self is working on sight-reading consistently and regularly (5 - 10 minutes everyday) it should take self between 3 months and 3 years to get really good (as mentioned before it does depend on the person).

If self gets good before 3 months, self is a sight-reading genius. If it takes self more than 3 years self is doing something wrong (approaching the subject the wrong way, practising the wrong thing, not being consistent - that is, everyday).

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

If self is doing everything right (e.g. following the principles of the book mentioned above, or Howard Richmann's "Super-sight reading secrets"), and if self is working on sight-reading consistently and regularly (5 - 10 minutes everyday) it should take self between 3 months and 3 years to get really good (as mentioned before it does depend on the person).

If self gets good before 3 months, self is a sight-reading genius. If it takes self more than 3 years self is doing something wrong (approaching the subject the wrong way, practising the wrong thing, not being consistent - that is, everyday).

 

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

just 10 min. a day? wow that isn't much at all. I was thinking of dedicating 30 min. a day this summer.

boliver

[bernhard]

just 10 min. a day? wow that isn't much at all. I was thinking of dedicating 30 min. a day this summer.

boliver

When done properly (that is with full focus and concentration), sight-reading is mentally very tiring. 10 minutes is really the maximum. Even as little as two minutes a day can be very profitable, provided one does it everyday.

Now, what I am talking about here, is not so much opening a piece and sight reading through it (you can do that for 2 hours a day if you want), but more the drills and specific exercises in Richmann's book. Some of them seem so obivous, that the temptation is to skip them. But if you try, you may find that although you understand the concept you may not be able to do them at all. Things like displaced octaves can really tire you out mentally in a couple of minutes. Then of course the drill is not effective anymore. So this is the kind of thing to do when you are at your most alert.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[BoliverAllmon]

When done properly (that is with full focus and concentration), sight-reading is mentally very tiring. 10 minutes is really the maximum. Even as little as two minutes a day can be very profitable, provided one does it everyday.

Now, what I am talking about here, is not so much opening a piece and sight reading through it (you can do that for 2 hours a day if you want), but more the drills and specific exercises in Richmann's book. Some of them seem so obivous, that the temptation is to skip them. But if you try, you may find that although you understand the concept you may not be able to do them at all. Things like displaced octaves can really tire you out mentally in a couple of minutes. Then of course the drill is not effective anymore. So this is the kind of thing to do when you are at your most alert.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

wow that opens up the door for more repertoire. I have I think Richman's book. I can't remember now. It was one of those books you guys recommended.

boliver

[i_m_robot]

self was able to read through the second movement of the beethoven sonata

g major at about 60bpm per quarter note

is this bad or good

[BoliverAllmon]

self was able to read through the second movement of the beethoven sonata

g major at about 60bpm per quarter note

is this bad or good

better than me

[i_m_robot]

that was an estimation

it was probably much slower

 

[i_m_robot]

It really depends on the person.

Self does not want to use others for comparison

this would probably make self cry

just would like to know

[BoliverAllmon]

that was an estimation

it was probably much slower

 

still better than me.

[josef]

When done properly (that is with full focus and concentration), sight-reading is mentally very tiring. 10 minutes is really the maximum. Even as little as two minutes a day can be very profitable, provided one does it everyday.

Now, what I am talking about here, is not so much opening a piece and sight reading through it (you can do that for 2 hours a day if you want), but more the drills and specific exercises in Richmann's book. Some of them seem so obivous, that the temptation is to skip them. But if you try, you may find that although you understand the concept you may not be able to do them at all. Things like displaced octaves can really tire you out mentally in a couple of minutes. Then of course the drill is not effective anymore. So this is the kind of thing to do when you are at your most alert.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

I have just bought the Bach Chorals for Keyboard, after finishing the "Basic Drills" in Richman's Book. So there are about 370 Chorals in this book, and there are 10 different Exercises that should be done. If I spend aprox. 2-10 minutes per day (as mentioned above) on training only reading chorals, the chances are high to do only one exercise per year (maybe two), so I will need at least 5 years to do sight reading drills only on bach chorals, maybe longer!  What dou you think - or should I take Richmans advice to do all 370 chorals for every exercise not to serious?

...and HELLOOOOOOO to everybody, this is my first post (this forum is really great)

[greyrune]

I have a related question.  I can't really sight read at all, can't look at the score, but memorization is easy for me.  I heard from someone that once you start to be able to sightread consistantly and play while looking at the score your ability to memorize goes.  Is it a trade of between the two?  I'm sure it's still possible to memorize while sightreading, all of you do it, but would you actually have to start trying and forgetting stuff more and so on.  Even if this is true i'm going to have to learn to sightread i can see that it's an important skill and am going to go out and buy a book for summer, i'd just like to know the worst before it happens.

[Derek]

I have found, in my own case, that learning to sightread has vastly increased my ability to memorize. This is clearly because there are multiple forms of association in the mind, not just musical/muscle memory, now we have visual memory (not just keyboard visual memory) thrown in. But only if you learn to sight read properly! Learn to read intervals, shapes.etc. Know the keyboard like the back of your hand physically. Get out of the habit of decoding pitches when you read, this will keep you slow.

Try Lorina Havill's "You Can Sight Read" and work on it a couple of minutes a day. You'll ASTOUND yourself at how fast you get better at reading. Its really an outstanding book.

I also own the "Super Sight Reading Secrets" as mentioned above, and I believe they have very similar approaches. Lorina Havill has many more written out exercises, however, it seems to be geared better towards people who like to have a complete "course" for something. (I generally don't fit into that category, but I was never self motivated enough to learn to sight read, so in this case I do)

[wintervind]

What is the standard for sightreading?
I have several friends who can read at tempo anything put in front of them.
I can sightread anything if I take my own tempo but I don't think that makes me any good!

[whynot]

My standard for good reading is that on a piece at current technical level-- something you'd plan to perform-- to play through the piece the first time with reasonable accuracy, at or near performance tempo. 

[sznitzeln]

winterwind:
sure it does you good!
Sight-reading is one of the most important things for a classical pianist
1) If you read slow, your speed will improve
2) Even if you read slow broaden your horizon
3) Its fun!

greyrune:
Learning sight-reading doesnt impair your memorisation, only if you never take your eyes of the music. Its like learning words in a foreign language, it will take a long time if you keep reading the words. You must put the book away and check which words you have forgotten. I think that is the explaination why bad sight-readers memorize readily, they HAVE to work in their minds, because they cannot read.

Sight-reading actually helps memorisation, because you can work with the score and at the same time work on technique and memorization, and when you have played the piece a couple of times, you can go away from the piano and memorize from the score, without worry about the playing. As I said, you must also put the score away and play the music in your mind. And most importantly focus on the parts you have forgotten.

[cadenz]

I have just bought the Bach Chorals for Keyboard, ...

can you give me more information on this book? like what its actually called, and where you got it from? i have tried to look for it and haven't been able to find it

[stephane]

I found this at www.amazon.com:

371 Harmonized Chorales and 69 Chorale Melodies w/Figured Bass
ISBN: 0793525748
Publisher: G. Schirmer, Inc. (November 1, 1986)

Best regards,

Stephane

[josef]

I found this at www.amazon.com:

371 Harmonized Chorales and 69 Chorale Melodies w/Figured Bass
ISBN: 0793525748
Publisher: G. Schirmer, Inc. (November 1, 1986)

Best regards,

Stephane

I’m not sure if you can use this book for training sight reading, it seems to be an edition for choir and basso continuo. Make sure that you get the edition for organ/piano/cembalo, I got it at my local bookshop, which is specialised for music/sheetmusic. I found it at amazon too: Bach / 371 Chorals / Volume 1, Publisher: Warner Bros Pubns (March 22, 1985), ISBN: 0769240917
A collection of piano or organ. Total 371, Nos. 1-198 in this volume.

[sznitzeln]

Bach chorales isnt all you need. Its important to read stuff by different composers. Both for your knowledge, enjoyment and sight-reading speed.

[stephane]

Thanks Josef.
I already had it in my wish list. I didn't notice it wasn't really for piano, given the reviews. Updated my wish list.

Best regards,

Stephane

[Awakening]

My sight-reading improved very significantly over the past year.  I went from having to really "figure out" notes, to being able to recognize chords and sight-reading a melody line with ease.  I remember one day I tried sight-reading Chopin Etude 25/2 and I was able to sightread the right hand almost at full speed (without left hand).  I was looking at the page the entire time, and this was probably the first time I truly felt that I was "sight-reading."  I still have a significant amount of difficulty sight-reading for two staves if I'm trying to play the piece at a quick tempo.  If I'm sight-reading a piece that is meant to be played fast, but is too complicated to sight-read at that tempo, I will sightread hands separate, which gives me some of the satisfaction of really playing the piece.  I might then put hands together at about half speed.  Examples of pieces I did this with were Chopin Prelude in G Minor (tough piece at tempo.) 

I can sightread fairly well Chopin Nocturnes at a slow speed, and accredit Chopin with a lot of my sightreading improvement.  However, I find it quite difficult to sightread Bach, which I guess just means I need more practice.  I have had less experience with Baroque than any other style of music, which definitely affects my overall understanding of it and ability to sightread.  Anyway, I'd say just sightread music you like, and try to keep your eye on the page.  The less you look at your hands, the better.

[gorbee natcase]

It puts the lotion on the skin or it gets the hose again.

CANT SELF BE I

[latebloomer]

A question: Do you need to be at a certain level to use one of these sight reading books?  I am a beginner (8 mos.) wondering if one of these books would work for me or if I should wait until I reach a higher level.

Matt

[faulty_damper]

No, you do not need to be at a "certain level" to use these learning aids.  Books on this and other topics are there to help.

However, that "certain level" assumes you are able to play well enough and do not have poor technique.  Poor technique limits your ability to play anything, even if you are sightreading.

[g_flat]

I just want to ask the opinion of my fellow forum members as to which book, the Havill or Richman, would be more beneficial?

Also, would it be rude of me to ask i_m_robot why he or she keeps referring to him/herself in third person and exclusively using the the term "self" to describe him/herself?

[stephane]

G_Flat,

About I_m_robot, just look the following post:
https://www.pianoforum.net/smf/index.php/topic,8706.msg88551.html#msg88551

Best regards,

Stephane

[i_m_robot]

It puts the lotion on the skin or it gets the hose again.

CANT SELF BE I

self believes you all missed the main question completely

but self gives many thanks

self would like to know how long it took each of you, personally, to read at a level that you like

[Siberian Husky]

self doesnt believe sightreadingis important..

before people begin to flame on self..

remember..self believes this because self doesnt require the skill tos ightread...self can manage easily..quickly..and efficiently through pieces beacuse of self's ability to memorize after few readings...

self doesnt think self will ever do any accompaniment or on the spot playing as a musician..so once again..self doesnt believe sight reading is important

self also thinks i_m_robot smells nice today