How to make things automatic

[steinwayguy]

The title is pretty self-explanatory. Also, practice or performance tips on performance anxiety. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[bernhard]

Repetition.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

[pseudopianist]

Repetition.

Best wishes,
Bernhard.

Best post ever

Simple, short and right to the point.

[Rach3]

Repetiton.

-Rach3

[xvimbi]

Processes that one wants to have automated are best executed by machines.

[jim_24601]

Isn't that exactly what we want to do? Learning and playing a piece of music involves many processes, some of which admit of automation and some don't. Take a Bach fugue as an example (a Bach fugue is generally a good example of almost anything). A machine could analyse the score and pick out the subject, counter-subject, motifs ... but a human could tell you how the subject makes you feel, and why those particular subject entries in those particular keys. A machine could insert ornaments according to the baroque rules, but it couldn't vary those ornaments tastefully or know when to break those rules for better effect. A machine could play each individual note with precise velocity and timing, but it couldn't perform the piece like Gould or Tureck.

Let's face it, a lot of what's involved in piano playing is boring and repetitive. Fortunately that's not all there is to it (not by a very long way) otherwise musicians would just be accountants. So let the machinery - your body, its musculature and the low level systems that control it - handle the notes, and then you are free to concentrate on the music. After all, it's only when the velocity and timing of the notes is automatic that you can confidently say to yourself "today I think I'll play this ornament this way" or "I'd like a bit more con fuoco here" and know your body won't betray you.

Oh, and what Bernhard said.

[xvimbi]

Let's face it, a lot of what's involved in piano playing is boring and repetitive. Fortunately that's not all there is to it (not by a very long way) otherwise musicians would just be accountants. So let the machinery - your body, its musculature and the low level systems that control it - handle the notes, and then you are free to concentrate on the music. After all, it's only when the velocity and timing of the notes is automatic that you can confidently say to yourself "today I think I'll play this ornament this way" or "I'd like a bit more con fuoco here" and know your body won't betray you.

It could be considered semantics, but I don't think so. There is a big difference between an automated response and a conscious response. Automatic responses are like reflexes. They are something that always happen the same way. There is no conscious thought involved, so there is no means of varying things, like your "today I think I'll play this ornament this way". It's automatic.

My comment regarding machines was not meant in a derogatory way. It was meant to illustrate that "automatic" responses don't involve the conscious mind. Repetition moves a process from the conscious to the subconscious or even further, i.e., it decouples it from the brain.

Reflexes are machine-like actions, probably even more extreme, because one can't actually stop them or influence them in any way, that's why they are reflexes. There is nothing wrong with thinking "I want to play a fast scale in E in this section" and then have the reflexes take over for that section, but within this section there will then be no way of adjusting things. Adjustments "on a whim" are only possible when the brain is actively involved. I think good pianists don't really rely that much on reflexes. Rather, their brain is always engaged, and they are capable of thinking very fast.

[jim_24601]

It could be considered semantics, but I don't think so. There is a big difference between an automated response and a conscious response. Automatic responses are like reflexes. They are something that always happen the same way. There is no conscious thought involved, so there is no means of varying things, like your "today I think I'll play this ornament this way". It's automatic.

Perhaps. You would surely say, for example, that walking was automatic, and yet if I am walking along I can decide consciously to speed up, or slow down, or indeed jump up into the air or kick my leg out like John Cleese, and the thing I have decided to do will happen.

It occurs to me as I think this, however, that we may be talking about different levels of control. Consider an experienced and trained actor who has made a special study of walking - the way different people walk, and the mechanics and muscle movements involved. So this person can exactly emulate the walk of a happy or depressed person, or an injured person with a limp, varying the parameters as he sees fit, with a degree of control that you or I would probably fall over if we tried to exercise it. That level of conscious control would have to be reinstated through long practice and training; ordinary folk who treat walking as a way to get from A to B wouldn't have it. So perhaps you're right. Certainly a pianist who played as if it was just a way of getting from A to B wouldn't be much good.

Of course, this can't be taken to mean that one shouldn't practise! (A great sigh goes up from all the piano pupils reading this). In that regard my point still stands, I think. Your point that we still need to take care that the brain remains ultimately in control is of course valid.

I think good pianists don't really rely that much on reflexes. Rather, their brain is always engaged, and they are capable of thinking very fast.

I'll confess that, like most of us, I've frequently experienced the "brain on autopilot" moment when I know I'm about to go horribly wrong and yet I'm powerless to stop it. On the other hand, if all your conscious mind is taken up with the notes you'll have none left for the music. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in between.

[xvimbi]

It occurs to me as I think this, however, that we may be talking about different levels of control.

That's why I said it might be a matter of semantics, or better perhaps, a matter of definition. After all, SteinwayGuy never mentions what it was that he wanted to automate.

I'll confess that, like most of us, I've frequently experienced the "brain on autopilot" moment when I know I'm about to go horribly wrong and yet I'm powerless to stop it. On the other hand, if all your conscious mind is taken up with the notes you'll have none left for the music. As with most things, the truth lies somewhere in between.

I believe that initially, when we start out learning to play the piano, or any complicated activity for that matter, we try to amass an arsenal of more or less automatic actions. This will give us a toolbox that will allow us to play pieces quickly. For example, learn a few arpeggios, a chromatic run and a few chords, and whoop! one can play Fuer Elise. However, I think, at a later point, we reverse the process and start to dissolve all those automated actions and reflexes again, because we realize that the next level is to keep control over every single, atomic aspect of piano playing. Only then can we achieve true mastery.

I can practice a trill until it is completely automatic. Then I play it in a piece and realize that my other hand is too slow or too fast, so I have to adjust my trill, which will then be difficult. Of course, this will be completely disastrous when playing in an ensemble, where one constantly has to react to the other players.

So, I think we have to go back to the initial question. What is it actually that can be sensibly automated?

[Dazzer]

i have experienced from time to time, where i would play, and suddenly i'd realise i'm a couple of pages from where i thought i would be. and i'd played everything in between without consciously playing it. (not sure how WELL i played it, never actually heard any recordings of these "zone outs")

as for what could be considered automatic?
scale passages and passages requiring technical fluency.

as for what can be done?
repetition, practise. (and with the right method. and the right method is different for each person. I use a mixture of dotted rhythms, triplets, and broken passages)

as for what you become?
a piano monkey.

[xvimbi]

i have experienced from time to time, where i would play, and suddenly i'd realise i'm a couple of pages from where i thought i would be. and i'd played everything in between without consciously playing it. (not sure how WELL i played it, never actually heard any recordings of these "zone outs")

My girlfriend claims (well, I have no reason not to believe her) that she literally dozes off sometimes and "wakes up" a few pages later. She also has no recollection of what and how she played (to me it sounds just fine.) She even zones out during the Tempest. How, the heck, can one fall asleep during the Tempest

[Dazzer]

well its not necessarily "falling asleep". i call it "zoning out". Its almost like the subconscious is playing the piano, and not the conscious. Its what the subconscious plays that shows you what you truely have embedded into your memory, physical or mental.

I find that usually this happens when i start thinking of something else while i'm playing (ie: why my life sucks, why am i still single, why does everyone hate me, why don't i have friends etc) then suddenly i just get a grip, and woah, i've suddenly played 1-2 minutes through what i thought was merely 1-2 seconds.

[xvimbi]

well its not necessarily "falling asleep". i call it "zoning out". Its almost like the subconscious is playing the piano, and not the conscious. Its what the subconscious plays that shows you what you truely have embedded into your memory, physical or mental.

That is correct, but is it good? I actually try to avoid this what concerns the actual sound production. I think it is very useful to just know what note comes next, and I try to comit that aspect to my memory, but I try to avoid comitting sound production to my subconcious. Whenever I do, my playing sounds preconceived, mechanic (duh) and dull.

So, in my mind, the question is still unresolved. What is it that can/should be automated? At the moment I have a hunch that it is the motions that produce a certain sound that should be automated, but not a musical phrase as a whole, such as a scale fragment, a trill and similar. Thinking about it some more, I am not even sure if I like the idea of making a conscious decision about the next sound I'd like to produce and then have an "automaton" carry out the appropriate motions. It does not allow me to adjust the sound in response to what actually comes out of the piano.

[steinwayguy]

I know exactly what I want to hear, and I know how to produce it, but I can't consistently reproduce it, or even reproduce it at all, on stage. That is the problem.

[xvimbi]

I know exactly what I want to hear, and I know how to produce it, but I can't consistently reproduce it, or even reproduce it at all, on stage. That is the problem.

OK, that's why your question about performance anxiety. I guess the answers to that don't have anything to do with what we discussed. Sorry for hijacking the thread. It was a good discussion, though.

[sznitzeln]

I think playing the piece and finding parts that are already automatic, then play the first bar of those sections and stop, because else you would do something that is already automatic... waste of time. Often every bar is part of an automatic section, you then only need an overview of the piece, and merge all the automatic sections to one whole automatic piece

Hofman says that we automaticly associate the music with a lot of things, some of them are part of the piano and the practice room, and this is subconcious. So if we play at one instrument only, we can have memory lapses when we try another instrument, and this is disastrous if we perform... So the remedy is to try the piece on a couple of different instruments, especially that one that we will perform on.

Also re-learning a piece several times makes it automatic.

To become less tense while performing I suggest this:
Learn some eastern philosophy, you can even try meditation or yoga if you want,
then FORBID yourself to think doubtful thoughts... just think about all the people that like your playing, if someone doesnt, then thats their problem, and probably they dont know what they are talking about
Also talk with people that encourage you and believe in you, dont listen to the others.
It is important not to care about what others think.
Playing as good on stage as in the practice room is a skill, and every skill can be trained. Make yourself more and more stable and notice how your performances improve, dont expect it to be allright in a few days
Stage fright isnt a permanent condition. I still have it, but much less...
And when you get nervous (I take it you get nervous) dont be afraid of that, start thinking about positive experiences, and think about times where you have been nervous, but when you started to play it got better, and everything turned out fine, so why shouldnt it this time...

[lostinidlewonder]

To cure stage fright, the only true way I can think of making sure you don't stuff up is by testing again and again your program. You have to do trial runs in smaller private concerts to make sure that problems in the playing and also in the speech can be sorted out. I think it is very tough on yourself if you go onto the bigger peformances without testing what you are doing to do beforehand.

I personally do at least 3 smaller private concerts before playing whatever i want to do in the public recital. Doing them just for yourself is not good enough, you have to go peform infront of people even if it is a small group of just 10 people, the atmosphere created is immediately different and the saftey nets disappear (You cannot simply repeat a part if you stuff up like you would in practice, when peforming you must keep the flow always going no matter what). If you stuff up in those smaller peformances it shouldn't matter, you must use that information and focus your attention to whatever is failing, but if you stuff up in the bigger concert gatherings it matters, I really think it does. Not only because it makes others feel uncomfortable when you stuff up, but it demonstrates to the public that after all your hard study and effort you still make an error. That means you didn't really pay attention to all aspects of your presentation especially your own mental comfort.

You mentally become stronger and stronger the more times you present your peformance without a hitch. So if you can present your recital to a group of 10 people on 3 different occassions without problems, then you can be pretty certain and confident the same would happen if 10 times that where watching, or even 100 times. The number of eyes doesn't change anything, the fact that someone is paying close attention to your playing is the fact which disrupts most people. So practice that fear away, it can't be worked away by yourself or by playing for people you are very used let to listen to you, get out there and play it for those who would be happy to give you that experience for free, local schools, churchs, retirement villiages(or nursing homes especially, lots of people there who love piano music but are too old or sick to leave), social clubs etc.

To make the playing automatic you really have to listen to yourself play not focus on the physical. In all the pieces i play from memory there are certain difficult parts where you must remember simply one note to position the hand then the rest knows where to go, but never would you have to think constantly where to go, there must be a natural movement of your hands guided by your intent listening. Literally you have to be listening to yourself play as if you where listening to a recording of your favorite piece anticipating all the notes and climaxes.

Tips to get at this state, start playing in the dark, or in a very dim lit room. This forces you to "feel" what you play more. Perhaps some pieces you can't do this because of the visual aspect tied to the accuracy of wide jumps, one just uses their logic as to what can be done in the dark and what can't. But there is great benefit if you can sense wide reaches blindly or near to it. If you think about it Liszt would have practiced predominantly in the dark, maybe under a single candle flame just enough to see the page.

[apion]

Best post ever

Simple, short and right to the point.

2nd best post ever.

Simple, short and right to the point.

[goldfish]

Repetition.

You can say that again!

goldfish

[pianonut]

for me, it's repetition AND playing in front of people (in my case, my family most of the time) and in the dark.  i find playing in a dimly lit room not just relaxing, but mentally uplifting because i can focus on the sound more.  otherwise, i might see the laundry pile out of the corner of my eye, or the shoes that are scattered, backpacks and homeworks spilling out on the floor.  if you can concentrate in the middle of a tornado you're either a piano monkey or a machine.  someday, i will be calm, quiet, and completely in control - right now - i am feeling like dazzer but the opposite(do i remember those quiet single moments when i had all the time to myself to practice, eat a full meal without choking...)  am glad to be married, but life does get fast paced once you have children!  just sit back, enjoy your bachelor life, and don't worry dazzer!  if you are like my 1st cousin (great guy) you're probably waiting for the girls to get over the 'bad guys' and finally decide on a good one.  he waited til 35 or something, and she was worth waiting for. 

not to change the subject, but tornado is our cat's name - because when we first brought her as a stray into the house, the first thing she did after she ate was run around like a tornado - literally sliding across the floor, hitting the wall, and running back.  anyway, i had a hyperactive son, and now a hyper 3 yr. old daughter, so while i am practicing (the cat's old now), my daughter is probably taking a roll of stamps and sticking them on the window.

[Dazzer]

You can say that again!

goldfish

why? practise what you preach? haha..

[ehpianist]

Slow repetition
Slow repetition
Slow repetition

Elena
Elena
Elena
www.pianofourhands.com

[musicsdarkangel]

The title is pretty self-explanatory. Also, practice or performance tips on performance anxiety. Any suggestions?

Thanks.

IMO, combining different practice techniques is the fastest way to attain automatic playing.  This should help with performance anxiety as well.

For fast passages, I would play it in rhythms, slowly, and then I would do small groups at top speed (I would play the first two notes, the first three, four, etc. so that it felt natural and I would understand the motion required to play them flawlessly.).

I actually think that this style of practice is the most beneficial for automatic playing.


Anyway, I wish that I knew the magical answer to anxiety, but I think that you just need to do competitions, and concerts as much as possible.  This is what I'm trying next year.

[ehpianist]

Missed the anxiety question.  For that go look at the "Mental Practice" thread and go buy the book My Lessons with Kumi by Michael Colgrass.  Mental preparation is the ONLY thing that will reduce performance anxiety significantly.

Elena
www.pianofourhands.com

[raffyplayspiano]

I have to agree with the post by pianonut, where he states that it is important to play in front of people, as well as repitition.  If I get used to play by myself, or for my teacher only most of the time, there i a good chance that anxiety might take hold..
my teacher told me that the first time you play a piece for someone, it  might not come out at all like you expected.  the second and third times, you have more experience of what to expect--areas to watch out for and so forth, 5th and 6th time, even better, and so forth...
(some mght argue that if you have flubs, you dont know the piece...but thats a different post.) 

as for me, i think confidence is very important.  Part of the problem is that if we think we arent good enough, we tend to think too much while we are playing about the possiblity of messing up and so forth, so that when it happens, we have already mentally defeated ourselves.  When i auditioned for graduate school, my teacher told me to demonstrate confidence, and not arrogance, and to play knowing that I have done the best that I can within the time slot i had to prepare.  once you have a succesful experience, yo build more confidence, and things, in my humble opinion, become more automatic.  pieces that you felt you really had to go over carefully before you played them for someone, become easier to present.

raffy

[rebel1ns]

yeah experience helps, find opportunities to play for other people as many times as you can, so you can get your "bad performances" out of the way..also you can learn to be relaxed when you play, basically if u mess up you have to pretend it didnt happen in your mind and just stay positive..in personal experience, during an audition i really messed up a couple notes in the 10/4 etude but i tried to stay positive, and it paid off cuz i played a perfect ending, and i ended up gettin in (not a college but a distinction lol)