when does technique require a grand?

[just_me]

hi. i am long term goal planning and i wanted to know what are some guidelines for when one's technique ~requires~ a grand piano (vs. a studio upright)?
thanks~

[xvimbi]

I'd like to answer this question in the following way:

If you can imagine sounds that you would like to produce, and your current instrument is not able to produce them, but you know (e.g. from trying) that a grand is able to produce those sounds, then you need a grand.

[invisible]

Actually, that is quite a great answer xvimbi, and helps me put some things into perspective.  Thanks 

sincerely,
invisible

[Torp]

If you can imagine sounds that you would like to produce, and your current instrument is not able to produce them

Unfortunately for me, problems reproducing the sounds I imagine seem to stem more from the playing apparatus involved (i.e. me) than the instrument

Great answer xvimbi!!

Jef

[robert]

Many uprights have problems to reproduce fast key repeats. Most grands have a better escape mechanism which produce faster repeates (as faster than 16:th in b~132).
But for this, I see little pure techincal reasons but for what is already mentioned and the main thing is of course the grands ability to produce great dynamic effects.

[Glyptodont]

A similar question would be, when do you need a sostenudo pedal?

Not all grands have them-- mine doesn't.  Some of the lower price range Yamahas even don't have them, as I understand it.

And I suppose some of the most expensive verticals will have one.

That would be an example of a feature you should have if you get very advanced. 

Whether on a grand or not.

[xvimbi]

A similar question would be, when do you need a sostenudo pedal?

Not all grands have them-- mine doesn't.  Some of the lower price range Yamahas even don't have them, as I understand it.

And I suppose some of the most expensive verticals will have one.

That would be an example of a feature you should have if you get very advanced. 

Whether on a grand or not.

I guess, the general rule still holds: if the instrument is the limiting factor, make changes. Beethoven, Liszt, Cage, all of them did so.

[Glyptodont]

At risk of being fanciful, I would say that you buy a piano, but you marry a grand.

[terminal]

Oh definitely an acoustic piano, a grand would be great.

I worked on a quality Yamaha weighted electric for nearly 22 months, and my new piano teacher says to me, you play like an organist... it may be your keyboard, and you know what it was the electric.

I bought a grand and am absolutely amazed at the difference in sound quality and what you can get out of even a simple piece of music. I could never get the same from the electric.

If your learning dump the electric. (if you have one) get the grand. And spend every last dime you can on it as it will never be this cheap again. Not that you shouldn't negotiate a great price though...

I was driving down to one of the local piano shops to purchase a Samick piano that I had convinced myself was good enough for the time being.... I just about made it there but turned off onto the highway to downtown because I just had to try the Estonia. It was amazing, the rest of the story is great but I will stop there.

Cheers

[robert]

At risk of being fanciful, I would say that you buy a piano, but you marry a grand.

A very good point!

[Groggy60]

On a grand piano a key does not have to return to the top to be played again as it does on an upright.

The newer more expensive electronic pianos have very impressive keyboards that behave like grand piano keyboards. Condemning all electronic pianos based on one piano you say is was an electric is not justified.  I played a grand piano I hated, but I do not condemn all grand pianos because of it.

[celticqt]

My upright drives me nuts.  Quickly repeated notes just don't sound at all.  When I go to my lesson I sometimes feel like I'm playing a whole different piece.  Unfortunately I don't have $20,000 sitting around to go buy a baby grand (even though I would love to).

I'm kind of worried that my piano is holding me back.  But what can I do, besides win the lottery (I don't gamble anyways)?? 

[lostinidlewonder]

A top quality Yamaha Concert upright for instance is a fantastic instrument, something that definatly can be used pianistically to its fullest with big range and control of touch. Most people with the option between a poorer quality baby grand and a good quality upright would definatly lean towards the higher quality upright if they had the choice.

I do not believe that you need to get a grand piano if you are no satisfied with the sound coming out of the insturment you have. I was awlays told that you have to be able to control whatever piano you sit infront of. I grew up on an old Upright piano (forgot the obscure name of it)  which had the touch of a brick, extremely hard to play and press the notes. When i went to yamaha uprigths they felt like soft butter, so easy to press! In fact because i had studied on a difficult piano, difficult in the way that desired sound production was a constant struggle, when I went to higher quality pianos my playing ability multiplied in strength. I even learnt on a broken electric Yamaha Clavinova for 4 years and that was when I decided to become a concert pianist!!! That was until I was given a grand thank god.

[joachimf]

Unfortunately I don't have $20,000 sitting around to go buy a baby grand (even though I would love to).

You surely don't need $20,000 for a baby-grand. Try to find a good, used grand. Make sure it is properly rehabilitated though.
I'm currently waiting for an August Förster (a small one.. approx 160cm long I think), they're working on it as we speak, and I get that for about $10,000. It's not a bad grand either, it's actually pretty good and I can't wait until I get it delivered:D
They also had a Rieger-Kloss, beautiful and an excellent grand to play on, though it was too expensive for us, but it was still about $5000 less than your $20,000. 

Don't buy new. The old grands, if refurbished properly, are just as good in many cases. The only thing special about some of the new grands is that they use computer-technology to very precisely adjust the weight of the keys. Just make sure they do a well overhaul of the old grand, it shouldn't be too old either.

In many cases though, a tall upright sounds better than a short grand. In my search for piano I tried both an upright Petrof at 163cm's tall, and a baby-grand at 150. The Petrof sounded a lot better. The one I ended up with was excellent though, and lets not forget: The feeling of playing on a grand is so... great!!

Joachim

[celticqt]

My other issue is space - I'm sure some of you live in humungous houses, with all the money you make performing , but we have a little ranch (our first home) of about 1200 square feet.  A baby grand would take up half our living room, literally.  So I am trying to just be patient.

Joachim: I've never played an August Forster.  What are they like?

[joachimf]

Well, I might have exaggerated a little bit in my previous post, because of this: When I tried the August Förster, it wasn't "fixed" yet(didn't find a better word ) , they hadn't started working on it yet. So it was still in a not too good shape. Although I tried it of course, and it had a pretty nice touch to it. (that is of course completely of a personal opinion). The warmth and richness of the sound was also very impressive, keeping in mind that it is a very small grand. I've tried many small grands(in stores), and many don't really have any characteristics/sound by them. At the time I played it though, it was in such a bad shape it wouldn't even keep in tune. But the piano-place are to change almost all the interior, so it will be like a new one, technically speaking.(they will change all the hammers,etc.) Anyway, I was impressed how well it performed. Though when they have completed working on it, it will be quite different I guess.

But in general, August Förster is a quality brand, (at least that I've heard). They are supposed to make good pianos and grands, and everything is handmade. They have a website if you are interested: https://www.august-foerster.de/

But again, it is completely personal how people experience different grands. I'm only a kid (just turned 16), and I haven't played that many grands, so I don't know if I have good enough foundation to actually argue about this . But I do know what sound I like, of course. My teacher has a Steinway, and I completely fell in love with that. But I've also heard Steinways vary a lot from Steinway to Steinway. You just have to try them all.. hehe. Don't prejudice anything, except the russian Etyde brand, which I've heard has a tendency to simply fall apart... 

Sorry for the long post, I get carried on.. 

By the way, keep in mind that even small grands which doesen't sound so great in the stores might sound a lot better at home. I have a fairly small bedroom, and this is were the grand will stay. That means almost only space for my bed and the grand. lol. In such a small room, a small grand will give a completely different feeling than the same grand in a big store.
Most stores, in Norway at least, also have the option of trying the grand at home for a month or so, and if it doesen't fulfill what you expected, you can return it free of charge. Don't know how this is elsewhere...

[c18cont]

Check out the Fazioli grands if you have not. Fazioli is about 40 years old as a builder, and they even build a 10'2"....They are on the web...

They are very expensive, and are said to equal or surpass Bosendorfer...I have never seen one.

John Cont

[nanabush]

I use an Upright, but have no problems with it, the keys are light, and can play very loud and very soft...It's not that I don't need a grand, I honestly don't have space for it except in the basement, which wouldn't be good at all...  Also the top on my piano opens, so it sounds more 'grand like'....

[robertp]

I'd say "you'll know it when you feel it"  !

It's true that a fine "studio upright" will top a dead grand, every time. But it's also true that the same upright will also top a grand which you don't want to "marry" (great metaphor in an earlier post).

For example. I'm looking seriously at grands right now, although I've been playing happily for a long time on a Baldwin studio upright. I tried a couple of Yamaha grands. Wouldn't care to marry either, although some might, and that would make it the right match for those people. But not for me.

But I've also encounterd some grands that I would consider marrying. In those cases, I found I was able to do more. A lot more. And this gets back to the mechanics. I started looking because good as my current piano is, I was running into its limits. Not all the time. That is, you have to know whether the issue with fast repeated notes  is you or the piano. In my case, the piano. I need more out of the una corda pedal than my upright can give me on many occasions.

You know it when you feel it.